How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

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brightlights

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Even though I presently cringe at the idea of election -- how can it be refuted after reading Romans 9?

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[4] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[5]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[6]
16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[7] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?



(emphasis mine)

How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?


 

UMP

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brightlights said:
Even though I presently cringe at the idea of election -- how can it be refuted after reading Romans 9?

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[4] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[5]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[6] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[7] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?



(emphasis mine)

How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?
Don't cringe, it's God's WONDERFUL TRUTH !!
You might like this:

Many men cavil at election; the very word with some is a great bug ear; they no sooner hear it than they turn upon their heel indignantly. But this know, O man, whatever thou sayest of this doctrine, it is a stone upon which, if any man fall, he shall suffer loss, but if it fall upon him it shall grind him to powder. Not all the sophisms of the learned, nor all the legerdemain of the cunning, will ever be able to sweep the doctrine of election out of Holy Scripture. Let any man hear and judge. Hearken ye to this passage in the 9th of Romans! "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid! For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? for who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor! What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles." These are God's words; if any man doth cavil at them, let him cavil; he rejecteth the testimony of God against himself. If I promulgated the doctrine on my own authority, I could not blame you if you should turn against me, and reject it; but when, on the authority of Holy Scripture, I propound it, God forbid that any man should quarrel therewith.
I have affirmed, and I am sure most Christians will bear witness, that what I said was the truth, that if any man loveth God he loves him because God gave him grace to love him. Now, suppose I should put the following question to any converted man in this hall. Side by side with you there sits an ungodly person; you two have been brought up together, you have lived in the same house, you have enjoyed the same means of grace, you are converted, he is not; will you please to tell me what has made the difference? Without a solitary exception the answer would be this—"If I am a Christian and he is not, unto God be the honor." Do you suppose for a moment that there is any injustice in God in having given you grace which he did not give to another? I suppose you say, "Injustice, no; God has a right to do as he wills with his own; I could not claim grace, nor could my companions, God chose to give it to me, the other has rejected grace wilfully to his own fault, and I should have done the same, but that he gave 'more grace,' whereby my will was constrained." Now, sir, if it is not wrong for God to do the thing, how can it be wrong for God to purpose to do the thing? and what is election, but God's purpose to do what he does do? It is a fact which any man must be a fool who would dare to deny that God does give to one man more grace shall to another; we cannot account for the salvation of one and the non-salvation of another but by believing, that God has worked more effectually in one man's heart than another's—unless you choose to give the honor to man, and say it consists in one man's being better than another, and if so I will have no argument with you, because you do not know the gospel at all, or you would know that salvation is not of works but of grace. If, then, you give the honor to God, you are bound to confess that God has done more for the man that is saved than for the man that is not saved. How, then, can election be unjust, if its effect is not unjust? However, just or unjust as man may choose to think it, God has done it, and the fact stands in man's face, let him reject it as he pleases. God's people are known by their outward mark: they love God, and the secret cause of their loving God is this—God chose them from before the foundation of the world that they should love him, and he sent forth the call of his grace, so that they were called according to his purpose, and were led by grace to love and to fear him. If that is not the meaning of the text I do not understand the English language. "We know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

Spurgeon
 
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FieryBalrog

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UMP said:
Don't cringe, it's God's WONDERFUL TRUTH !!
You might like this:

Many men cavil at election; the very word with some is a great bug ear; they no sooner hear it than they turn upon their heel indignantly. But this know, O man, whatever thou sayest of this doctrine, it is a stone upon which, if any man fall, he shall suffer loss, but if it fall upon him it shall grind him to powder. Not all the sophisms of the learned, nor all the legerdemain of the cunning, will ever be able to sweep the doctrine of election out of Holy Scripture. Let any man hear and judge. Hearken ye to this passage in the 9th of Romans! "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid! For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? for who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor! What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles." These are God's words; if any man doth cavil at them, let him cavil; he rejecteth the testimony of God against himself. If I promulgated the doctrine on my own authority, I could not blame you if you should turn against me, and reject it; but when, on the authority of Holy Scripture, I propound it, God forbid that any man should quarrel therewith.
I have affirmed, and I am sure most Christians will bear witness, that what I said was the truth, that if any man loveth God he loves him because God gave him grace to love him. Now, suppose I should put the following question to any converted man in this hall. Side by side with you there sits an ungodly person; you two have been brought up together, you have lived in the same house, you have enjoyed the same means of grace, you are converted, he is not; will you please to tell me what has made the difference? Without a solitary exception the answer would be this—"If I am a Christian and he is not, unto God be the honor." Do you suppose for a moment that there is any injustice in God in having given you grace which he did not give to another? I suppose you say, "Injustice, no; God has a right to do as he wills with his own; I could not claim grace, nor could my companions, God chose to give it to me, the other has rejected grace wilfully to his own fault, and I should have done the same, but that he gave 'more grace,' whereby my will was constrained." Now, sir, if it is not wrong for God to do the thing, how can it be wrong for God to purpose to do the thing? and what is election, but God's purpose to do what he does do? It is a fact which any man must be a fool who would dare to deny that God does give to one man more grace shall to another; we cannot account for the salvation of one and the non-salvation of another but by believing, that God has worked more effectually in one man's heart than another's—unless you choose to give the honor to man, and say it consists in one man's being better than another, and if so I will have no argument with you, because you do not know the gospel at all, or you would know that salvation is not of works but of grace. If, then, you give the honor to God, you are bound to confess that God has done more for the man that is saved than for the man that is not saved. How, then, can election be unjust, if its effect is not unjust? However, just or unjust as man may choose to think it, God has done it, and the fact stands in man's face, let him reject it as he pleases. God's people are known by their outward mark: they love God, and the secret cause of their loving God is this—God chose them from before the foundation of the world that they should love him, and he sent forth the call of his grace, so that they were called according to his purpose, and were led by grace to love and to fear him. If that is not the meaning of the text I do not understand the English language. "We know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

Spurgeon
How is this wonderful? It is infinitely the opposite, even were it to be true. I could care less if God does it or no- to me, God is wonderful if he does wonderful things, or else the word has no meaning. To say "God is wonderful because he is God" means that wonderful means nothing more than "what God does".
 
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Sundragon2012

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To speak plainly, Spurgeon is the kind of idiot who is capable of making evil seem good, up seem like down and black into white so long as it fits his philosophical beliefs. There is no ethical or moral reasoning to be found in what you posted UMP. It is nothing more than a sychophantic apologetic designed to "justify" the description of God offered by your version of Christianity.

Let me tell you something, a good apologist can make anything seem rational, reasonable and ultimately even necessary but this speaks far more to the eloquence of the apologist that to the moral/ethical strength of his or her argument. People like Spurgeon can argue for the benefits of Stalin's political purges, the Holocaust, slavery, the denying of civil right to those different (foreigners, other faiths, other colors, etc.)or any other atrocity by appealing to authority or necessity.

Cult leaders do this as well and those in cults (religious, nationalistic, etc) fall for it because the so desperately want to believe and belong. Fundamentalists need to redefine words like wonderful, love, good, just, etc. in order to shoehorn those words into their religion but in so doing remove all meaning from those words and turn them into Christian shop-talk that needs its own dictionary.


Namaste,

Chris
 
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Mystikiwi

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Well you might as well forget that "doctrine" because you don't know who God has "chosen" anyway, so it's pointless to speculate or make comment on any individual. It's between them and God. :)

ps Don't quote me and expect me to reply because that's all I have to say about it, myself. :D
 
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UMP

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Sundragon2012 said:
To speak plainly, Spurgeon is the kind of idiot who is capable of making evil seem good, up seem like down and black into white so long as it fits his philosophical beliefs. There is no ethical or moral reasoning to be found in what you posted UMP. It is nothing more than a sychophantic apologetic designed to "justify" the description of God offered by your version of Christianity.

Let me tell you something, a good apologist can make anything seem rational, reasonable and ultimately even necessary but this speaks far more to the eloquence of the apologist that to the moral/ethical strength of his or her argument. People like Spurgeon can argue for the benefits of Stalin's political purges, the Holocaust, slavery, the denying of civil right to those different (foreigners, other faiths, other colors, etc.)or any other atrocity by appealing to authority or necessity.

Cult leaders do this as well and those in cults (religious, nationalistic, etc) fall for it because the so desperately want to believe and belong. Fundamentalists need to redefine words like wonderful, love, good, just, etc. in order to shoehorn those words into their religion but in so doing remove all meaning from those words and turn them into Christian shop-talk that needs its own dictionary.


Namaste,

Chris
Except for one thing.
It's a principal taught in the Word of God and it is TRUTH.
All Glory to God !:amen:

Romans 9:
[11] (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
[12] It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
[13] As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
[14] What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
 
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brightlights

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Ok. So justice is defined herein:

God creates one man to suffer eternally and another man to live forever with God.

This is, of course, regardless of the man's will -- because God has willed it for him.

I'm sorry, but I cannot see that as justice. Justice means that people get what they deserve, and if someone rebels against God unwillingly then that man does not deserve the punishment to rebellion.

I think that either we are all misinterpreting this passage, or that Paul was wrong *gasp*. What about Romans 2? Paul explains that those who live without the law are judged aside from the law. If these said people were pre-destined then why are they judged? Why is anyone judged for God's actions?

What about this passage?
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9)

Or this one?
5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
(Luke 13:5 implies that one has a choice in the matter -- as do countless other passages)

John 3:16 anyone?
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[ 3:16 Or his only begotten Son] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(does this not imply that we have a choice?)

Why are they perishing?
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
(2 Thes 2:10 -- because they refuse. Not because God refuses)

And again:
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Either we are misinterpreting Paul in Romans 9, these passages are wrong, or Paul is wrong in Romans 9.
 
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UMP

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brightlights said:
Ok. So justice is defined herein:

God creates one man to suffer eternally and another man to live forever with God.

This is, of course, regardless of the man's will -- because God has willed it for him.

I'm sorry, but I cannot see that as justice. Justice means that people get what they deserve, and if someone rebels against God unwillingly then that man does not deserve the punishment to rebellion.
You forget one small important fact.
ALL MANKIND IS GUILTY BEFORE GOD, ALL MANKIND IS ACCOUTABLE.
 
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WaZoO

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UMP said:
You forget one small important fact.
ALL MANKIND IS GUILTY BEFORE GOD, ALL MANKIND IS ACCOUTABLE.
Accountability suggests that we have some degree of free will or choice, which contracticts Calvinism. If we don't have a choice, it's not our accountability, it's just God using human souls that he has predetermined to suffer as vessels for his wrath.
 
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Sundragon2012

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UMP said:
Except for one thing.
It's a principal taught in the Word of God and it is TRUTH.

*snipped stuff*
A baseless assertion that can be made by any religion CLAIMING to be the absolute truth.

No proof, the scriptures I snipped are relevant only to a believer and therefore can only be used to preach to the choir.


Namaste,

Chris
 
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UMP

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brightlights said:
I think that either we are all misinterpreting this passage, or that Paul was wrong *gasp*. What about Romans 2? Paul explains that those who live without the law are judged aside from the law. If these said people were pre-destined then why are they judged? Why is anyone judged for God's actions?
Because all mankind is guilty and accountable.

What about this passage?
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9)
Any of what? All of what? "All" are all of His children, predestined and elect before the foundation of the world. Of those He shall lose NONE!
John 3:16 anyone?
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[ 3:16 Or his only begotten Son] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(does this not imply that we have a choice?)
For God so loved the world means God loves the world in this manner, in this way. Who are the whosoever wills, who are the one who will believe? The ones given to Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world, God's children.
John 6:44
[44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


And again:
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Any of what? Those He will send to hell? NO. God will NOT LOSE any of HIS CHILDREN, those He chose to save before the foundation of the World!

Either we are misinterpreting Paul in Romans 9, these passages are wrong, or Paul is wrong in Romans 9.
No misinterpretation, no contradiction.
 
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UMP

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WaZoO said:
Accountability suggests that we have some degree of free will or choice, which contracticts Calvinism. If we don't have a choice, it's not our accountability, it's just God using human souls that he has predetermined to suffer as vessels for his wrath.
Man is free to do what he loves to do.
No man has ever been forced to sin.

James 1:
[13] Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[15] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death
 
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GnosticBodhi

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UMP said:
ALL MANKIND IS GUILTY BEFORE GOD, ALL MANKIND IS ACCOUTABLE.
What is mankind guilty of exactly? Sin? A sin is a violation of god's will, but if god controls everything as Paul claims, then there can be no sin because everything happens according to god's will.

"...[God] works all things according to his will" (Ephesians 1:11)
 
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UMP

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GnosticBodhi said:
What is mankind guilty of exactly? Sin? A sin is a violation of god's will, but if god controls everything as Paul claims, then there can be no sin because everything happens according to god's will.

"...[God] works all things according to his will" (Ephesians 1:11)
Man has free will do do what he loves to do, what he wants to do.
Lift your hand and touch the keypad, press the letter "n". Now, it's your choice, you can choose freely to proceed or not.

James 1:
[13] Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[15] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death
 
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WaZoO

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Man is free to do what he pleases, but God arbitrarily chooses some of them to bestow with divine sovereignty so they don't have to go to hell? So, the 99% of Japan's population that isn't Christian are some of the ones that God decided to use as kindling wood for hell, since it's human nature to sin and any sin counts. Killing a person or being attracted to a member of the opposite sex who you aren't married to both warrant hell in God's eyes.
Furthermore,
[bible]Romans 3:23[/bible]

Why does a Calvinist bother to witness? Just be glad you're one of the elect and that God's holy justice is going to punish all the people that he has chosen to punish.
 
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UMP

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WaZoO said:
Man is free to do what he pleases, but God arbitrarily chooses some of them to bestow with divine sovereignty so they don't have to go to hell? So, the 99% of Japan's population that isn't Christian are some of the ones that God decided to use as kindling wood for hell, since it's human nature to sin and any sin counts. Killing a person or being attracted to a member of the opposite sex who you aren't married to both warrant hell in God's eyes.
Furthermore,
Romans 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Why does a Calvinist bother to witness? Just be glad you're one of the elect and that God's holy justice is going to punish all the people that he has chosen to punish.
Why witness?
Because God said to. What a privalege to be part of God's work !!

I don't have the names in the book of life and I should judge no man.
God is your judge, not me.
I trust that God is JUST in all His judgements.
Who am I to tell God He is wrong?

Romans 9:
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory
 
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UMP

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GnosticBodhi said:
How is that possible if god controls everything as Paul claims?
How?
I don't know, but God does.

Romans 11:
33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
[36] For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
 
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