How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

[Ben johnson]

For the record, I started this thread about two years ago and have since become pretty convinced of the doctrine of election and of the tennents of Calvinism.

Welcome back!

As a "convert to Calvinism", I would relish your understanding of Matt23:13-15. This is one of the "smoking guns", which accommodates no part of "Predestination".

Those who Jesus said "are entering" --- are they really entering? Or is there some way to understand "not REALLY entering"?

Jesus said, "those, you stop --- you shut off the kingdom of Heaven from men". Are they stopped? Is Heaven shut off? Or is there some way to perceive "not really"?

Some say, "Well, Jesus didn't say 'shut off FOREVER'; if they're really predestined they'll enter at a future time when He has CHOSEN." But look at verse 15 --- those who are "stopped/shut-off" --- Jesus says, "You make them twice a child of Hell than YOU are!"

Is there any way that "a child of Hell", could be considered "elect, and shut off for NOW but they'll enter LATER"?

Besides, doesn't "enter in the future", really impose "not REALLY shut off (if they're elect)"?

And aren't ALL who are "shut off", the same ones Jesus just described as "are entering"?

How would you answer that, Brightlights? I'm really curious.

 

[drstevej]

No rejoicing, Ben?

 

[Ben johnson]

...and I've proven that God elects no one.

This is HYPER HYPER ARMINIANISM , talk about overplay a hand

Only one verse is needed to prove the point, and overturn yours.

Peter said, "I perceive that God is not partial, but all who fear (revere) Him and do right are welcome to Him." Acts10:34-35

God welcomes those who pursue righteousness (as Rom2:6-8 says). Contextually, "partiality" would be God favoring someone who does NOT revere Him and pursue righteousness.

That is the essence of "Calvinism", Cygnus --- God favoring (electing) men who do not revere Him nor seek righteousness. Part-n-parcel of Reformed Theology asserts that "man CANNOT revere God NOR seek righteousness BEFORE God favors him and sovereignly regenerates him."

So --- God elects no one, but each is elected when he believes. Election is by grace (Jesus on the Cross), through faith (that whosoever believes, should not perish but have eternal life".

"Responsible Grace" is not overplayed at all.

 

[Ben johnson]

No rejoicing, Ben?

"Rejoice in the Lord always, again I say rejoice!"

 

[drstevej]

"You shall LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart, and all your mind, and all your soul."

I do --- always, and forever. And it is with diligence that I walk with Him.

The diligence adminished so often in Scripture to me, Steve.

Really?
You must be proud of your diligence.

 

[nobdysfool]

Only one verse is needed to prove the point, and overturn yours.

Peter said, "I perceive that God is not partial, but all who fear (revere) Him and do right are welcome to Him." Acts10:34-35

God welcomes those who pursue righteousness (as Rom2:6-8 says). Contextually, "partiality" would be God favoring someone who does NOT revere Him and pursue righteousness.

That is the essence of "Calvinism", Cygnus --- God favoring (electing) men who do not revere Him nor seek righteousness. Part-n-parcel of Reformed Theology asserts that "man CANNOT revere God NOR seek righteousness BEFORE God favors him and sovereignly regenerates him."

So --- God elects no one, but each is elected when he believes. Election is by grace (Jesus on the Cross), through faith (that whosoever believes, should not perish but have eternal life".

"Responsible Grace" is not overplayed at all.

No time for chit-chat, eh? Too busy trying desperately to shoot down Calvinism? Especially with things not going to too well for your theory? You issued some challenges, and it seems you're having some trouble dealing with the answers. Not to mention the one who started this thread has embraced that which you think you have destroyed.....

 

[cygnusx1]

Only one verse is needed to prove the point, and overturn yours.

Peter said, "I perceive that God is not partial, but all who fear (revere) Him and do right are welcome to Him." Acts10:34-35

God welcomes those who pursue righteousness (as Rom2:6-8 says). Contextually, "partiality" would be God favoring someone who does NOT revere Him and pursue righteousness.

That is the essence of "Calvinism", Cygnus --- God favoring (electing) men who do not revere Him nor seek righteousness. Part-n-parcel of Reformed Theology asserts that "man CANNOT revere God NOR seek righteousness BEFORE God favors him and sovereignly regenerates him."

So --- God elects no one, but each is elected when he believes. Election is by grace (Jesus on the Cross), through faith (that whosoever believes, should not perish but have eternal life".

"Responsible Grace" is not overplayed at all.

sure you can do a merry dance , it doesn't change the fact that you said there is NO ELECTION whatsoever ;

"...and I've proven that God elects no one." ben


you are the only person on these boards I have ever seen deny all Election ! That is some record!

I also know you don't like predestination at all and if you could , you would remove it from The Bible !

 

[frumanchu]

"You shall LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart, and all your mind, and all your soul."

I do --- always, and forever. And it is with diligence that I walk with Him.

The diligence adminished so often in Scripture to me, Steve.

By your own teachings, you believe Paul says those who were "running well" but were then "severed from Christ."

You clearly believe you are running well now. What proof do you have that you will not some day be the victim of the very doctrine you teach?

How do you know with certainty that you will hold to your confession to the end when the cornerstone of your teaching has been that anyone can fall from grace and lose their salvation?

 

[Rightglory]

frumanchu,

How do you know with certainty that you will hold to your confession to the end when the cornerstone of your teaching has been that anyone can fall from grace and lose their salvation?

No man can know with any certainty except where he might be TODAY, In Christ. That is precisely what we will be judged on, how faithful WE remain, how WE endure. We must constantly seek reconciliation through forgiveness of sin. We must constantly test ourselves to make sure we are still running the race. We proceed with fear and trembling, never taking God's promises and grace for granted.
We have all the confidence that God will preserve the Inheritance promised to all who are faithful and will indeed grant that inheritance in that last day, provided, WE were faithful. We are not saved through unfaithfulness. We are not saved because we once believed, some time, many years ago. We are not saved if we fall, depart, do not finish the race, do not endure.
We do none of this alone. God has provided all the necessary means for our salvation. But He leaves it to man to freely choose to align his will with that of God's will. It is the whole purpose of revelation. God revealing Himself to us, so that we know what God desires of us. That we follow by faith and keeping that faith. Salvation of our souls is through faith. It is the purpose of our existance, being in union with God, but freely.

 

[Ben johnson]

Really?
You must be proud of your diligence.

Pride is as opposite to humble diligence as can be. Our own diligence in salvation, is clear in many passages; for instance 2Pet1:5-10.

"Supply in your faith moral excellence, self-control, knowledge, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, love. If these qualities are yours you are useful/fruitful... He who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having FORGOTTEN former purification from sins.

THEREFORE (against that one who WAS saved but now LACKS the qualities that must accompany salvation), be all the more diligent to make certain of your calling and election; as long as you practice these things you will not stumble ('stumble', ptaio-become-wretched). In THIS way the gates of Heaven will BE (abundantly) provided to you."

From Peter's words we see that:
1. Peter presents a man who WAS saved, but is no longer
2. This bad-example is a warning, for us to not BE like him
3. Our own diligence about God's calling and election is required
3b. ...that the gates of Heaven BE provided

I don't know any way to remove the idea of "fallible salvation" from Peter's words...

 

[cygnusx1]

it's not the inheritance that needs preserving ... it is me !

 

[Ben johnson]

No time for chit-chat, eh? Too busy trying desperately to shoot down Calvinism? Especially with things not going to too well for your theory? You issued some challenges, and it seems you're having some trouble dealing with the answers. Not to mention the one who started this thread has embraced that which you think you have destroyed.....

I look forward to "Brightlights" answering post #461. What answer can Calvinism give for that?

So --- do you think they'll fix the car?

 

[Rightglory]

cygnus,

it's not the inheritance that needs preserving ... it is me !

Yes, and that is all up to you. Working with the Holy Spirit to remain faithful. The Holy Spirit does not do it against your will or desire.

 

[nobdysfool]

I look forward to "Brightlights" answering post #461. What answer can Calvinism give for that?

You'd be surprised....you really do not understand Calvinism, Ben.

So --- do you think they'll fix the car?

Boyd Coddington was present when the car was lifted out of the vault. If anyone can restore, it, Boyd can. Ever seen the American Hot Rod series on Discover or TLC (can't remember which channel its on)? I watch it when I can catch it, because I love Hot Rods and Custom Cars, and Boyd Coddington is one of the best, if not THE best (along with Chip Foose) at building show-winning cars.

 

[cygnusx1]

cygnus,

Yes, and that is all up to you. Working with the Holy Spirit to remain faithful. The Holy Spirit does not do it against your will or desire.[/size][/color][/font]

no it's NOT all up to me ............ otherwise you wouldn't say "yes" !

clearly I am too weak to fight Satan sin and the flesh , my trust is in Christ not in ME ...... I need preserving , you may not but I most certainly do!

 

[Ben johnson]

sure you can do a merry dance , it doesn't change the fact that you said there is NO ELECTION whatsoever ;

Didn't say that. I said, "GOD elects no one". Look again at John said:
"As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.

Do you deny that "become-children-of-God", means "become-ELECT"?

So you see, God did not elect them --- they believed and received Christ, and became elect.

Did I 'splain it better?

"...and I've proven that God elects no one." ben


you are the only person on these boards I have ever seen deny all Election ! That is some record!

Did not deny it; denied the monergistic interpretation of it.

I also know you don't like predestination at all and if you could , you would remove it from The Bible !

Don't have to --- it was never there in the first place.

If "God elects people", then we don't need to "be all the more diligent about our calling and election, that the gates of Heaven BE provided to us", do we?

 

[cygnusx1]

Didn't say that. I said, "GOD elects no one".

which is no election , but still you continue your merry dance , I suppose you will say that "God elects no one " we elect God , we chose God , and we came to seek and to save god , and if he obeys us and trusts us , then he can stay saved ......... wait a minute !

 

[Ben johnson]

Boyd Coddington was present when the car was lifted out of the vault. If anyone can restore, it, Boyd can. Ever seen the American Hot Rod series on Discover or TLC (can't remember which channel its on)? I watch it when I can catch it, because I love Hot Rods and Custom Cars, and Boyd Coddington is one of the best, if not THE best (along with Chip Foose) at building show-winning cars.

There's nothing much left to WORK with. The entire interior is gone, engine shot, body rusted out, what's left?

No man can know with any certainty except where he might be TODAY, In Christ. That is precisely what we will be judged on, how faithful WE remain, how WE endure. We must constantly seek reconciliation through forgiveness of sin. We must constantly test ourselves to make sure we are still running the race. We proceed with fear and trembling, never taking God's promises and grace for granted.
We have all the confidence that God will preserve the Inheritance promised to all who are faithful and will indeed grant that inheritance in that last day, provided, WE were faithful. We are not saved through unfaithfulness. We are not saved because we once believed, some time, many years ago. We are not saved if we fall, depart, do not finish the race, do not endure.
We do none of this alone. God has provided all the necessary means for our salvation. But He leaves it to man to freely choose to align his will with that of God's will. It is the whole purpose of revelation. God revealing Himself to us, so that we know what God desires of us. That we follow by faith and keeping that faith. Salvation of our souls is through faith. It is the purpose of our existance, being in union with God, but freely.

One of the best posts I've ever seen. Calvinists see the "uncertainty" as a horror; but it's not a man on a runaway train, not knowing whether it will be stopped or crash. It's a man walking with Christ, and his choice TO walk is continually present.

As long as we are diligent, and abide in Jesus, there is no uncertainty.

This is the warning given time after time after time in Scripture. "ABIDE in Christ, SO THAT we not shrink in shame at His returning". 1Jn2:26-28 "Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things; as you do you will save yourselves and those who hear you." 1Tim4:16 "As you have received Christ, so walk in Him. See that no one takes you captive through empty and worldly deception ...rather than according to Christ." Col2:6-8

it's not the inheritance that needs preserving ... it is me !

Yes, and that is all up to you. Working with the Holy Spirit to remain faithful. The Holy Spirit does not do it against your will or desire.

Both right --- RG eloquent and Scriptural.

Look at Rom8:12-14 --- we are under obligation, not to walk after the flesh; if WE do, we must DIE. But if, by the Holy Spirit we are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, we will live. Paul's words.

The duality of salvation --- God's grace and faithfulness, through our faith and diligence --- is summed up nicely in 2Tim1:12-14. God guards what we entrust to Him, and we guard (by the Spirit who indwells us!) what God entrusts to us.

 

[nobdysfool]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NBF
Boyd Coddington was present when the car was lifted out of the vault. If anyone can restore, it, Boyd can. Ever seen the American Hot Rod series on Discover or TLC (can't remember which channel its on)? I watch it when I can catch it, because I love Hot Rods and Custom Cars, and Boyd Coddington is one of the best, if not THE best (along with Chip Foose) at building show-winning cars.

There's nothing much left to WORK with. The entire interior is gone, engine shot, body rusted out, what's left?

Show-winning cars have been built from much less than what condition that Plymouth was in. Don't underestimate these guys. Nearly every body panel and part for these cars are still available in the booming aftermarket auto parts biz. Pick up a copy of Street Rodder and look at the ads throughout the magazine. I wish I still had the old '39 Chevy pickup my folks had on the farm when I was growing up....

 

[Rightglory]

Cygnus,

no it's NOT all up to me ............ otherwise you wouldn't say "yes" !
clearly I am too weak to fight Satan sin and the flesh , my trust is in Christ not in ME ...... I need preserving , you may not but I most certainly do!

Yes, but no one does it alone. I have never even come close to saying we do it alone. But God, clearly in all of Scripture, puts the resposibility on man, not God. He provides, we accept. It is a gift, all things we have are a gift from God. But, relative to faith, it is all your responsibility.
I need preserving as well, but it is not monergistic compelled upon me. I was not created to be a tool, an object of manipulation, but was created in His Image to be free, communal and unique. Your view actually denies scripture from the very beginning of Genesis. Adam obviously fails your test of predestination and God compelling union. You have yet to show anywhere from scripture that man lost his nature, or the Image of God in that nature.