How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

[nobdysfool]

I don't use "Google", but I found it nonetheless; they think it's the planters that form the echo-thing.

"They think" tells me they don't really know....

You should check it out, and look around. I thought of that, but the plaza slopes away on all sides from the central point, and even if you speak in a very quiet voice, the echo is present. Knowing a little about sound (I'm a musician, remember?), I know that the distance that any sound would have to travel to hit a reflective surface and bounce off, the angles are all wrong to hear self-generated sound, especially quiet sound. Yet, it's there.

here is a system of tunnels that connect several downtown buildings; they're quite elaborate, and only one is no longer in use (it was a private access for one of the millionaires).

Like maybe, Mr. Phillips? The Philbrook Museum was his mansion. You've heard of Phillips 66 gasoline? That was his company, and he lived in Tulsa.

I never knew about the tunnels, but it's interesting.

Yeah, I did; is it Mexico that bought all the stamps and designs?

I think that was Volkswagen. Actually the "new" '32 Ford bodies and frames are built right here in the good ole US of A. Brookville Roadsters makes them, among others. And with all the aftermarket parts available, and "NOS" (new old stuff) parts, it is possible to build a '32 Ford Coupe or roadster with all new parts.

Did you see the blue '40s car that someone drove from Cuba to Florida? Almost as funny as the yellow pickup. The truck had 55 gallon steel drums welded on, the drive-shaft became a propellor. Not sure how they made the car water-tight. Coast Guard scuttled both; they should have been put in a museum...

Didn't know anything about that. Amazing what some people will do to make it here. I'd love to see pictures of that if any are available. If it had been me, I'd have let the people stay, just on the strength of the ingenuity involved in modifying a car or truck to make it across 90 miles of ocean. Put them to work in a custom car shop, or at least an auto dealer body shop! They've proven that they have the moxy to do that kind of work!

Well, we've discussed (argued) this. One of the strongest conflicts with "predestination", is the fact that faith is tied to seeing. As Paul said in Rom10:14, and as Jesus said in Lk20:29. If faith is tied to "seeing", then how could it be "sovereignly predestined"?

That is absolutely untrue. predestination has nothing to do with faith being tied to seeing. I have no idea where you get such a notion, but it proves once again that you really don't know anything correctly about Reformed/ Calvinist doctrine.

What of the indigenous peoples you mentioned? Rom1-2 has always answered that for me. 1:19-20 says that "God is revealed to all men, He is clearly seen through what He has made".

That is referred to as "natural revelation", and it is not enough to save anyone. Romans 1 clearly indicate that in spite of natural revelation, men turn from it, reject it, and invent all sorts of evil to avoid it, corrupting that knowledge into idolatry, and all manner of evil and sin. If natural revelation were enough to draw men to God, then all would seek Him. Instead, natural revelation serves to condemn mankind, because the evidence is there and plain to see, and they reject it.

Suppose a man who had never heard of Jesus, but looked around at nature, and concluded "there must be a Creator". You and I know Jesus is real; would such a man, seeking the Creator, not find Him? This seems to be what Paul was saying in Rom2:14-16; those who do not have the Law, nevertheless have the Law (meaning Jesus) written in their hearts, then their conscience will alternately accuse and defend them at the Final Judgment.

That doesn't indicate that they would achieve salvation, as if man could achieve that apart from Christ. There simply is no scripture that would indicate so.

This to me means that such men can emerge from the Judgment, and enter Heaven.

Then it unavoidably follows that you believe that there is another way to Heaven than through faith in Christ.

But understand, such a position does not propose "salvation apart from Jesus"; it's simply "salvation through Christ, inasmuch as they understood Him."

A position which cannot be supported from scripture, and is not taught by Christ Himself. You are attempting to apply a sentimental, man-made view of God and His dealing with men in place of scripture.

As saved believers, does not the Holy Spirit indwell us, and reveal spiritual truths? If such an un-missionaried man sought the Creator, and if Jesus responded and GAVE him the Holy Spirit, would not the Spirit then indwell that man and teach him the same deeper spiritual truths as He teaches us, in 1Cor2:14?

All mere conjecture, and attempting to talk your way out of a position which is unscriptural. There is not one shred of scriptural proof or support for such a notion.

This will be a difficult position for you to consider; because you place "sovereign election" before "seeking".

Ben, I have asked you before to refrain from attempting to tell me (and in reality the readers here) what I believe and teach. You are not a Calvinist, yet you try to tell us all that you, a non-Calvinist (really, an anti-Calvinist) know more about Calvinism that Calvinists do. That is illogical, and downright false.

Your theory poses no problem for me, because it is unscriptural, and based on wishful thinking. I have no problem rejecting it out of hand, because it is nowhere to be found in the Word of God.

Yet I see Heb11:6 as placing God as receiver of man's faithful seeking --- which embodies Jeremiah 29:11-13, "You will seek Me and you will find Me, when you search with all your heart; I will be found by you."

Does any man, without prior working by God on that man's heart, ever do such a thing? Scripture says that there is none that seek after God, there is none righteous, that all are shut up in sin and unbelief. That is not hyperbole, as indicated by the context of Paul's words.. God makes many statements of principle, that state that if you do this, I will do that, but they do not imply any ability on the part of men to do what He says He will respond to. In actuality, those statements are for Believers, not unbelievers. Believers can do as God says. Unbelievers cannot.

Your response is to say that Calvinists teach that God taunts people, that God torments people by telling them to do that which they cannot. What a foolish false charge! It again demonstrates your lack of true knowledge of Calvinist/Reformed Doctrine, and of scripture, and is really just a device to remove the focus from the paucity of your doctrine, and put Calvinists on the defensive. It is a denial of the true state of unregenerate men, the depth of their bondage to sin, and their moral inability to choose to do what is right and good in God's sight.

Sorry Ben, but you cannot support such foolishness from scripture, without doing serious violence to the meaning and harmony of scripture.

 

[Rightglory]

Cygnus,

all truth was given and handed down and kep by only the orthodox is your view , yet you also insist some truths are not even revealed ...... such are the conflicts of your posts.

Unless you can tell me what He has revealed to you that has not been revealed up to this time. But that would go against His own word that He does not reveal prophecy to individuals.
But If you ever find out from any person, or yourself, that He will save some without being In His Body as He has described and had revealed to the Apostles by which the Church has existed since the beginning, let me know. Until that happens, I think I'll stick to what He has revealed for all.
All Truth has been kept in the Body of Christ, which happens to be manifested through the Orthodox Church, that Body that goes right back to the Apostles, the Day of Pentacost.
Can you prove that it has never existed? Can you disprove that statement?

btw , you are aware that Calvinists have creeds , so your arguement about only private interpretations are counted is to skew the facts anyway , I have a very good library thanks !

Yes, I am all to well aware of that. But I am also aware of a fact that two ministers, young, maybe that's the reason, from a single denomination indicated to me that the creeds do no mean much anymore. They stated that if they held to them, they would not have many coming into the door anymore. That was about the time I was beginning to leave protestantism. After inquiring in other denominations, it seemed that some felt they had some validity, but most were abandoning them, in favor of a more moderate stance on the issues of the creeds and surely not requiring that new prospective members be asked to adhere or believe what they contained.
Furthermore, you have quoted from several, Hodges, Pink, Sturgeon and even Calvin and they are all that, quite precisely, a single man's interpretation. Not a single book can you list that was developed, or written by a very large council, or General Assembly, or other than a single man, or written and adopted by a denomination. They all lead back to ONE man. And on top of that, they do not agree with themselves on many issues.
What about some of those modern theologians coming out of and teaching at such Calvinistic institutions as McCormick Seminary in Chicago or the Princeton Seminary, Westminster in Calif, and Union Theological Seminary. These have long been the hotbed of revelutionary changes in practice and theology and teaching by the professors there. Big discussion in Union several years ago, maybe 20, over the teaching that there may not have been an actual resurrection. Talk about revelation.

Although no interpretation of scripture is simply by personal interpretation , but by the Holy Spirit (not a Church) God's judgment is on the individual , If I must be judged as an individual , you bet I want to consider all things as an individual , it's no good hiding behind what a Church says and what a Church believed at the judgment day ..... the fact that some agree with me and some do not is the same for anyone.

It is NEVER by personal interpretation. It is denied in Scripture and it is only through the Church, which is the pillar and ground of Truth that it will be revealed. It is the person that will be accountable for believing that which was given, to be led to the Truth, not obtaining it, not developing whole new gospels that have never seen the light of day heretofore.
The reason you don't want to hide behind any Church is that you do not understand who is the Church. The Body of Christ is not a church, but the Church. It is not an organization. It is the manifestation of His Incarnation here on earth, it is organic, real, and ontological. I don't adhere to any organization either, I wouldn't trust an organization, (why I easily dismissed the RCC). But I believe IN Christ, who IS TRUTH. I BELIEVE IN ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH. The ONLY reason I can ascribe belief to that Church is because it IS CHRIST.
Earlier you stated you accepted the Nicene Creed. I have yet to see any protestant Bible or Hymnal that does not put an asterisk on that phrase. The Apostles creed has actually been changed to delete the words either catholic or apostolic, or they also put an asterisk beside it.
You also cannot answer why you believe what the creed says about the resurrection.
Nicene Creed: "I look for the resurrection of the dead."
Apostles Creed: "the resurrection of the body"
I'm not sure we had this discussion, but other Calvinists and most, if not all protestants believe that the dead shall rise on the last day. But almost all protestants deny just how that can happen. It is through the Incarnation. Meaning, Christ did indeed give Life to all mankind. All shall be raised from mortal bodies to immortal bodies. NO exceptions. Or do you believe that there are some exceptions in that "all" as well. It would be interesting because as far as I know all Calvinists believe in the resurrection of the dead, not just dead believers. So could you explain just how you can deny the means, but accept the end result?

 

[Rightglory]

Nobdysfool, & Ben,

Does any man, without prior working by God on that man's heart, ever do such a thing? Scripture says that there is none that seek after God, there is none righteous, that all are shut up in sin and unbelief. That is not hyperbole, as indicated by the context of Paul's words.. God makes many statements of principle, that state that if you do this, I will do that, but they do not imply any ability on the part of men to do what He says He will respond to. In actuality, those statements are for Believers, not unbelievers. Believers can do as God says. Unbelievers cannot.

If I may I would like to respond to both at the same time.
First, to Ben, this is where you do go astray with your theology relative to faith, per Church Fathers. Scripturally regeneration is after 'received faith', (which you fully understand) Calvinist, in their theology have no answer to the fact that regeneration is the result of faith or comes from faith. They do explain it as NBF does here but it creates a monster contradiction.
The reason you are also stumbling, and it is not scriptural, per the Church Fathers, is that both of you deny that Christ did in fact grant life to mankind. All mankind was redeemed. Being so, God also, because man is sinful, still sins, still seeks Him in corruption, will prefer idols, etc, but God also poured our His Spirit upon all flesh. This is not the Holy Spirit working inwardly, or indwelt. It is the Holy Spirit working externally upon all men. God Calls all men to repentance, soley on the basis that He desires all to be "soul saved" not just saved from death and sin. Man is given everything necessary to believe. It is more a transformation, because it was the death, the mortality of man that makes any spiritual union moot.
God calls, man believes, God receives upon repentance and baptism, and is given as a surety, the Seal of the Holy Spirit, meaning we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. A free choice, a choice that man can and does, unfortunately renege on.

Your response is to say that Calvinists teach that God taunts people, that God torments people by telling them to do that which they cannot. What a foolish false charge! It again demonstrates your lack of true knowledge of Calvinist/Reformed Doctrine, and of scripture,

It may show Bens lack of Calvinism, but I doubt it, but he is scriptural and it would lead one to think that from a non-calvinist point of view.

It is a denial of the true state of unregenerate men, the depth of their bondage to sin, and their moral inability to choose to do what is right and good in God's sight.

Not quite. What is shows is your lack, per Church Fathers, in understanding the meaning of Christ's Work on the Cross, WHICH was Freeing mankind from the bondage to death and sin. Man has been freed from the condemnation of Adam. Adam is of no consequence respectiive of the end. Christ overcame all that Adam did to mankind. Man is now free to respond to God's call, freely, and have an eternal consequence either way. Man can choose to remain a slave to sin, or change at any time. Or he can become a slave to Christ, but also change at any time.
Now we can go back to what Paul was saying of being shut up in sin and unbelief. Faith, man's will, even if perfect, cannot save a man. Without Christ overcoming Adam (the fall), all, everything is vain, I Cor 15:18-19.
We will be judged whether we are believers, that is we endured, remained faithful to OUR committment to God, or either never did believe or fell away. That is the mercy and justice of God.
He took away an unjust death, annihilation through the one sin of one man. How just is that. He permitted the universal judgement against Adam to be inherited by birith, and it was corrected by Christ assuming our human natures, our mortal natures and raising them to life. Rom 11:32. Life so that we can even have the possibility of believing. Without redemption there is no hell or heaven. We all have been condemned by Adam to death, dust to dust. Gen 3:16.
Hope that sheds some light of both of your arguments.
But, on the other hand, both will probably stick to your personal interpretatations. So.....

 

[cygnusx1]

Cygnus,


Unless you can tell me what He has revealed to you that has not been revealed up to this time. But that would go against His own word that He does not reveal prophecy to individuals.
But If you ever find out from any person, or yourself, that He will save some without being In His Body as He has described and had revealed to the Apostles by which the Church has existed since the beginning, let me know. Until that happens, I think I'll stick to what He has revealed for all.
All Truth has been kept in the Body of Christ, which happens to be manifested through the Orthodox Church, that Body that goes right back to the Apostles, the Day of Pentacost.
Can you prove that it has never existed? Can you disprove that statement?

Yes, I am all to well aware of that. But I am also aware of a fact that two ministers, young, maybe that's the reason, from a single denomination indicated to me that the creeds do no mean much anymore. They stated that if they held to them, they would not have many coming into the door anymore. That was about the time I was beginning to leave protestantism. After inquiring in other denominations, it seemed that some felt they had some validity, but most were abandoning them, in favor of a more moderate stance on the issues of the creeds and surely not requiring that new prospective members be asked to adhere or believe what they contained.
Furthermore, you have quoted from several, Hodges, Pink, Sturgeon and even Calvin and they are all that, quite precisely, a single man's interpretation. Not a single book can you list that was developed, or written by a very large council, or General Assembly, or other than a single man, or written and adopted by a denomination. They all lead back to ONE man. And on top of that, they do not agree with themselves on many issues.
What about some of those modern theologians coming out of and teaching at such Calvinistic institutions as McCormick Seminary in Chicago or the Princeton Seminary, Westminster in Calif, and Union Theological Seminary. These have long been the hotbed of revelutionary changes in practice and theology and teaching by the professors there. Big discussion in Union several years ago, maybe 20, over the teaching that there may not have been an actual resurrection. Talk about revelation.
It is NEVER by personal interpretation. It is denied in Scripture and it is only through the Church, which is the pillar and ground of Truth that it will be revealed. It is the person that will be accountable for believing that which was given, to be led to the Truth, not obtaining it, not developing whole new gospels that have never seen the light of day heretofore.
The reason you don't want to hide behind any Church is that you do not understand who is the Church. The Body of Christ is not a church, but the Church. It is not an organization. It is the manifestation of His Incarnation here on earth, it is organic, real, and ontological. I don't adhere to any organization either, I wouldn't trust an organization, (why I easily dismissed the RCC). But I believe IN Christ, who IS TRUTH. I BELIEVE IN ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH. The ONLY reason I can ascribe belief to that Church is because it IS CHRIST.
Earlier you stated you accepted the Nicene Creed. I have yet to see any protestant Bible or Hymnal that does not put an asterisk on that phrase. The Apostles creed has actually been changed to delete the words either catholic or apostolic, or they also put an asterisk beside it.
You also cannot answer why you believe what the creed says about the resurrection.
Nicene Creed: "I look for the resurrection of the dead."
Apostles Creed: "the resurrection of the body"
I'm not sure we had this discussion, but other Calvinists and most, if not all protestants believe that the dead shall rise on the last day. But almost all protestants deny just how that can happen. It is through the Incarnation. Meaning, Christ did indeed give Life to all mankind. All shall be raised from mortal bodies to immortal bodies. NO exceptions. Or do you believe that there are some exceptions in that "all" as well. It would be interesting because as far as I know all Calvinists believe in the resurrection of the dead, not just dead believers. So could you explain just how you can deny the means, but accept the end result?

just how did the orthodox come consensus , did all ECF work together on the interpretations , or were they alone in their studies

you claim all truth was given the Apostles and preserved (not in csripture) but in the writings of ECF , so , you should be able to tell everyone here how those outside of Orthodox Church are saved ...... how is it I have faith in Christ without being in the Orthodox church RG ?

 

[nobdysfool]

504 posts, and STILL Calvinism has not been refuted, and the person who opened the thread has embraced the Doctrines of Reformed Theology. Praise be to God!

 

[themuzicman]

Calvinism as a system isn't refuted, since it is internally consistent.

However, Calvinism's problem lies with it's Scriptural foundation. It's based upon faulty exegesis, as has been shown repeatedly.

Muz

 

[Rick Otto]

shown to be presumptuous (repeatedly).LOL

 

[Rightglory]

Cygnus,

just how did the orthodox come consensus , did all ECF work together on the interpretations , or were they alone in their studies

they based it on the Rule of Faith, that which was always understood. This is why from century to century the common thread is always there. It has never left, has never been watered down, altered, or added to. Like the Trinity, it was fleshed out, but the Trinity is not something new in 325. We still have not defined it because it is in the negative. We know what it is not, which was what Arius believed which was contrary to the concept prior to that time. Baptism, the Eucharist, the Liturgies have not changed. All Orthodox Churches use the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom who we will celebrate the 1600 aniversary of his repose on Sept 28. I believe some Coptic Churches also use it.

you claim all truth was given the Apostles and preserved (not in csripture) but in the writings of ECF , so , you should be able to tell everyone here how those outside of Orthodox Church are saved ...... how is it I have faith in Christ without being in the Orthodox church RG ?

No, not quite, The Gospel has been preserved, in Holy Tradition, which includes the Bible, regarded the highest, the Canons, the Creeds, the Liturgy, then the writings of the Church Fathers. It is all together, each supports the other. You cannot have one without the others.

you claim all truth was given the Apostles and preserved (not in csripture) but in the writings of ECF , so , you should be able to tell everyone here how those outside of Orthodox Church are saved ...... how is it I have faith in Christ without being in the Orthodox church RG ?

Why do I need to tell you. You are the expert and interpretation of the Bible. The Bible is quite clear that the ONLY way is through Christ. The Church is the manifestation of Christ here on earth. One enters through repentance and baptism. Has been that way since the Apostles, when Christ gave to them the shared authority He possessed and received from the Father. He has yet to reveal just how anyone outside of His Body can be saved.
Maybe you have only partial faith. You have not completely surrended your pride and vaunted ability to actually interpret scripture, thus have not fully submitted to His Lordship. He is still calling you to come to recieve the fullness of the faith and Life IN Christ. He stated quite clearly, did He not, in John 6:53-54 that unless you partake of His Body and Blood you have no Life in you.

 

[Rightglory]

Otto,

And the presumption of faulty exegesis, in turn,...

shown to be presumptuous (repeatedly).LOL

And so it goes, Mormans, Jehovah Witnesses make the same claim and have just as much validity as your personal opinions and interpretations. They are all the same. You could not disprove or prove any in the next 1000 years, as they will constantly change from one lifetime to the next.
Actually, as a whole, the Mormans and the Jehovah Witnessess have been much better at keeping unity within the particular paradigm of interpretation.
Denominations had some control for the first few centuries, but they by and large are meaningless today relative to preserving any kind of unity of faith.

 

[cygnusx1]

Why do I need to tell you. You are the expert and interpretation of the Bible.

shame , sarcasm like this just undoes your work.

as soon as I read stuff like this I finish with the post completely ....... it is pretty pointless waisting any more time in dialogue , because it is meaningless and I really don't have time to waste .

All I shall offer you is prayer.

 

[cygnusx1]

504 posts, and STILL Calvinism has not been refuted, and the person who opened the thread has embraced the Doctrines of Reformed Theology. Praise be to God!

God's will be done.

 

[Rick Otto]

Otto,

And so it goes, Mormans, Jehovah Witnesses make the same claim and have just as much validity as your personal opinions and interpretations.

Or anybody else's, right?
Thank God we all (more or less) have a conscience (more or less).
The authority that so impressed the audience in the temple that Jesus had when He neglected to leave Jerusalem w/his parents, wasn't a titled, traditioned authority as far as they knew!
It was the authority of plain truth eloquently spoken.
He hadn't announced His divinity at all. He held no rabbinic title or Levitical degree as a pre-teenager

They are all the same. You could not disprove or prove any in the next 1000 years, as they will constantly change from one lifetime to the next.

They are all the same in only this aspect of profession, certainly not alike, some radicaly different, in specifics of that profession. They are all provable in the experience of a maturing Christian. They are all 'foolishness to one who is perishing'.

Actually, as a whole, the Mormans and the Jehovah Witnessess have been much better at keeping unity within the particular paradigm of interpretation.

Yes, indeed they have, but let's keep it real, bro. Unity, in the sense of top-down beaurocratic uniformity of public profession. Personal opinions & beliefs do not fall in lock-step, as we all know.

Denominations had some control for the first few centuries, but they by and large are meaningless today relative to preserving any kind of unity of faith.

Again, you're right, but only in the institutional sense.
Even denominations that deny being denominations follow that rule you articulated.

 

[Rightglory]

Otto,

Yes, indeed they have, but let's keep it real, bro. Unity, in the sense of top-down beaurocratic uniformity of public profession. Personal opinions & beliefs do not fall in lock-step, as we all know.

that is why you have such a variety of beliefs. It is ONE faith, not thousands based on the use of the word, Christian, or God, or even Christ.
Christianity is a theocratic Kingdom. Only one is King and Lord, not man and his vaunted, prideful ability to proclaim and interpret supposedly new revelation. He gave us ALL Truth, the same Truth for all. That many seek their own, do not fully submit has been the history of religions and even within Christianity. What's new under the sun?

Again, you're right, but only in the institutional sense.
Even denominations that deny being denominations follow that rule you articulated.

That is the whole point. It is fast, to rapidly approaching, almost complete individualized faith. Not ONE faith for all, but all faiths are valid, because it is mine. How could anyone possibly be wrong. The power of one, you ALWAYS have unity. It is the truest form of unity, but the highest level of individualization and anarchy. It is far from only institutional, it is institutional. Institution of one. The disunity is being institutionalized.
As far from a universal Gospel as one can possibly get.

 

[nobdysfool]

Can we get back to the subject of the thread? I have no desire to get sidetracked into EO, and other stuff.

 

[Ben johnson]

That doesn't indicate that they would achieve salvation, as if man could achieve that apart from Christ. There simply is no scripture that would indicate so.

Then it unavoidably follows that you believe that there is another way to Heaven than through faith in Christ.

It doesn't mean "apart from Christ".

If Jesus is real (as you and I know He IS), then those who seek Him, the Creator, will find Him.

He will indwell whoever truly seeks Him --- of that I'm certain.

That is absolutely untrue. predestination has nothing to do with faith being tied to seeing.

That's the point --- it doesn't. Jesus said, "You believe BECAUSE you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen, and yet believe." Faith is tied to seeing --- not to God's sovereign predestination. Jesus praised "unseen faith" over "seen faith" --- which He would not have done had both been equal, having both been predestined.

I have no idea where you get such a notion, but it proves once again that you really don't know anything correctly about Reformed/ Calvinist doctrine.

Perhaps I've better explained what I was sayin'...

This will be a difficult position for you to consider; because you place "sovereign election" before "seeking".

Ben, I have asked you before to refrain from attempting to tell me (and in reality the readers here) what I believe and teach.

Do you believe that "seeking", consequents from "sovereign-regeneration"? Does anyone seek God before God elects-and-regenerates him?

Does any man, without prior working by God on that man's heart, ever do such a thing? Scripture says that there is none that seek after God, there is none righteous, that all are shut up in sin and unbelief. That is not hyperbole, as indicated by the context of Paul's words.

And that's what I was saying --- how did I "misrepresent Calvinism"?

God makes many statements of principle, that state that if you do this, I will do that, but they do not imply any ability on the part of men to do what He says He will respond to. In actuality, those statements are for Believers, not unbelievers. Believers can do as God says. Unbelievers cannot.

But can a "believer", un-believe?

Your response is to say that Calvinists teach that God taunts people, that God torments people by telling them to do that which they cannot. What a foolish false charge! It again demonstrates your lack of true knowledge of Calvinist/Reformed Doctrine, and of scripture, and is really just a device to remove the focus from the paucity of your doctrine, and put Calvinists on the defensive. It is a denial of the true state of unregenerate men, the depth of their bondage to sin, and their moral inability to choose to do what is right and good in God's sight.

What was Jesus accomplishing in Matt11:21-24? He was berating entire cities, Capernaum and Bethsiada and Chorazin; saying [color]"if THEY (Sodom, Tyre, Sidon) had seen what YOU have seen, THEY would have BELIEVED --- it will go better for THEM in the Judgment, than for YOU."[/color]

How does that reflect "predestination"? If Jesus DID believe in "sovereign predestination", how was that not "taunting"?

 

[Ben johnson]

The reason you are also stumbling, and it is not scriptural, per the Church Fathers, is that both of you deny that Christ did in fact grant life to mankind. All mankind was redeemed. Being so, God also, because man is sinful, still sins, still seeks Him in corruption, will prefer idols, etc, but God also poured our His Spirit upon all flesh. This is not the Holy Spirit working inwardly, or indwelt. It is the Holy Spirit working externally upon all men. God Calls all men to repentance, soley on the basis that He desires all to be "soul saved" not just saved from death and sin. Man is given everything necessary to believe. It is more a transformation, because it was the death, the mortality of man that makes any spiritual union moot.
God calls, man believes, God receives upon repentance and baptism, and is given as a surety, the Seal of the Holy Spirit, meaning we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. A free choice, a choice that man can and does, unfortunately renege on.

I don't see how this conflicts with anything I've said; redemption must have been universal, but it's conditioned on belief. ON believing, we are sealed with the Spirit (Eph1:13). Repentance is certainly something God DOES receive, rather than "author" or "gift TO us".

Verse after verse after verse charges us to "be diligent IN salvation", to "keep ourselves in God's love"; to "abide in Christ".

That's my only concern; when the Tribulation begins (and Scripture says we'll be gathered AFTER the beginning, 2Thess2:1-4!), then Paul's warning of 1Tim4:1 will come into fruition.

"In latter days, some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons".

So I debate for the encouragement of all, to "persevere in Christ".

 

[frumanchu]

What was Jesus accomplishing in Matt11:21-24? He was berating entire cities, Capernaum and Bethsiada and Chorazin; saying [color]"if THEY (Sodom, Tyre, Sidon) had seen what YOU have seen, THEY would have BELIEVED --- it will go better for THEM in the Judgment, than for YOU."[/color]

How does that reflect "predestination"? If Jesus DID believe in "sovereign predestination", how was that not "taunting"?

Wait a second....are you saying that Jesus was saying the people of Sodom, Tyre and Sidon WILL be saved based on His comment regarding what would have happened if they had seen those things???

 

[Rightglory]

Ben,

I don't see how this conflicts with anything I've said; redemption must have been universal, but it's conditioned on belief.

Negative, Faith has nothing whatsoever to do with redemption. Redemption is outside the perview of man. It is all God centered. This is what Paul is describing in Rom 9-11 as well in other places.
Faith, mankind, the Image of God, union, communion with God all have to do with creation. Mankind was restored to the capacity, the ability, to do what we were created to do. Christ's Work on the Cross eliminated, reversed the fall. The Bondage to death and sin is what held mankind in Adam or under Adam. Christ freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin. The reverse is Life and atonement.
Christ restored mankind from what he fell from, from what he was created to do as a creature created in God's Image.

ON believing, we are sealed with the Spirit (Eph1:13). Repentance is certainly something God DOES receive, rather than "author" or "gift TO us".

Can't disagree with you here. But none of this is even possible unless mankind is redeemed. This is the meaning of the verses in I Cor 15 where Paul is emphasizing the Work of Christ, His death and Resurrection as central. Faith is null and void, unless Christ be raised. If He is raised, then all the dead shall be raised as well. It is an accomplished fact. It has nothing to do with faith directly.

Verse after verse after verse charges us to "be diligent IN salvation", to "keep ourselves in God's love"; to "abide in Christ".

Agreed.

That's my only concern; when the Tribulation begins (and Scripture says we'll be gathered AFTER the beginning, 2Thess2:1-4!), then Paul's warning of 1Tim4:1 will come into fruition.
"In latter days, some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons".
So I debate for the encouragement of all, to "persevere in Christ".

Agreed, Ben. This is not where you digress from scripture, per the Church Fathers. it is the way you state it, not because it has anything to do with redemption, but because that is the way man was created, all men. We are not different in our natures, but of the same essence. Man is created to be free, that is the Image of God in man. It is the ONLY reason we can even be judged. Christ redeemed Mankind so each could choose for themselves, rather than be left under the condemnation of Adam, death, dust to dust. Condemned to death, not on what any person did, but solely on the one sin, of one man.

 

[Rick Otto]

Ac 5:31 - Show Context Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Ac 11:18 - Show Context When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
2Co 7:9 - Show Context Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
Ro 2:4 - Show Context Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
2Ti 2:25 - Show Context In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

All who were placed "in Christ" are redeemed unto eternal life as all who were in Adam were condemned (including the elect), but not all who were in Adam were placed in Christ(only the elect were).

 

[Rightglory]

Otto,

All who were placed "in Christ" are redeemed unto eternal life as all who were in Adam were condemned (including the elect), but not all who were in Adam were placed in Christ(only the elect were)

I'm not sure just what all the texts regarding repentance prove on this subject, but they do not even address it.
Find a text that confirms your above statement. I find none, and none have yet to be presented.
You need to refute Col 1:15-20, II Cor 5:14-15, 18-20, I Cor 15:21-22, Rom 11;32, Rom 5:18-19. Find any that says, only some were placed under Christ. All the above very explicitedly deny your statement.