How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

[Reformationist]

And as to the question of "So why do some hear the call, receive the call, trust in Christ and find the narrow door when so many others clearly do not? Are those that do just smarter? More in tune with the Spirit?" : The Saviour teaches in John 3: 20-21 "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." So we can see that it is not because one is smarter in intellectual terms that they find the "door", but Jesus said it is because those who do truth are not ashamed to have the light surround them; while those who do evil do not want the light to be shined upon them, knowing that the light will show up their evil deeds.

Just so I understand, it's not that those who do find the door are smarter it is simply that they're not ashamed?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Van]

Hi Dottie, thanks for your thoughtful response. My conclusion concerning Romans 3:9-31 seems similar to yours but my path seems to take a different route.

If you look at the context of Psalm 14:1-3, you will see that Yahweh looked down from Heaven to see if any who understand, who seek after God. So this passage presents the picture of God expecting some guys to seek after God, and with the understanding to be able to do it. Now in verse 4, David indicates that some folks who know that God eats up people as they eat up bread fear God. These folks, directly referred to in verse 5, are in great dread, clearly teaching that some folks fear God and God is there refuge.

Now Paul quotes or paraphases this passage in Romans 3:10-12 as part of his argument that all mankind, Jew and Gentile alike, are "all under sin." Paul draws a different insight from the passage, that we are all sinners and we do not effectively seek God by doing the works of the Law (verse 20). However, in verse 28, Paul says we are justified by faith apart from the works of the Law, and that God justifies Jews by faith and justifies Gentiles through faith. Paul makes exactly the same point in Romans 9:30:33, where folks stumble because they take the wrong path, works rather than faith. But again the picture is unregenerate folks pursuing a right relationship with God.

 

[Dottie]

Just so I understand, it's not that those who do find the door are smarter it is simply that they're not ashamed?

Thanks,
God bless

As I have Fixed "coming to the light" and "entering through door" as being one and the same, Yes, that is basically what the Saviour taught. And I use the word "ashamed" in the same sense as it is used in Romans 9:33 when he says " As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

Any more questions or comments on my post? I mean, is that the only thing in the post that you could find to "pick at"?

 

[Van]

The question has been posed, why do some folks accept the gospel and other folks reject the gospel. According to Calvinist doctrine, the folks that reject the gospel are unable to respond because they lack the spiritual ability to respond. However, this idea cannot be found in the bible. But the Bible does explicitly explain why some folks accept the gospel and other folks reject it. Some folks are good soil and others are not. What does this mean? During our lives we have experiences and make decisions which shape our attitudes and beliefs. If we love darkness we will not be drawn to the light. But if we have been trained in the way we should go, we will be receptive to that line as a soil cultivated for a purpose.

John 6:45 tells us that unless we have learned from the Father we will not be drawn to the Son. That is why when the gospel message is presented to gentiles in the new testament, it starts with explaining the God of the Bible. For example, if you do not fear God, and your are unaware that God is Holy and you being a sinner are separated from Him, you will not be drawn to a Savior from the wrath of God upon sinners.

The Bible also indicates other issues dealing with receptivity to the Gospel. Folks might be drawn to the promises of the Gospel, they want to buy the spiritual fire insurance, but they are unwilling to give up everything and humbly trust in Jesus alone. So when difficulties arise, when their faith costs them things they hold dear in their heart, they fall away. The Bible also speaks of the gospel being choked out by bad company or other interests, again indicated a lack of a full blown committment to Jesus, mind, heart and soul. But because everyone who hears the call can accept, our job as ministers of reconciliation is to cultivate the lost, starting with a kids. Teaching them by words and example our love of the Lord and our willingness to sacrifice material things to stay in the center of His will.

 

[Beoga]

As I have Fixed "coming to the light" and "entering through door" as being one and the same, Yes, that is basically what the Saviour taught. And I use the word "ashamed" in the same sense as it is used in Romans 9:33 when he says " As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

i think that verse doesn't deal with what you are trying to say. romans 9:33 talks bout God not putting someone to shame. This seems to have nothing to do with whether one is ashamed or not before they come to God. Or maybe you are trying to say that God makes some ashame and so they don't end up coming to him, while others he doesn't put to shame and so they do come to me.

 

[Beoga]

During our lives we have experiences and make decisions which shape our attitudes and beliefs. If we love darkness we will not be drawn to the light. But if we have been trained in the way we should go, we will be receptive to that line as a soil cultivated for a purpose.

why doesn't God put experiances and stuff in everyones lives that will make them "good soil"

 

[Dottie]

i think that verse doesn't deal with what you are trying to say. romans 9:33 talks bout God not putting someone to shame. This seems to have nothing to do with whether one is ashamed or not before they come to God. Or maybe you are trying to say that God makes some ashame and so they don't end up coming to him, while others he doesn't put to shame and so they do come to me.

I was not talking about the whole passage. I used the word "ashamed" (kataischuno) in the same sense as it is used in Rom. 9:33. Thanks anyway for your trying to explain to me what I am trying to say. Thats very kind of you, but I believe that I pretty well have things under control in that department.

You can go back to your desk now. And don't be throwing any more spit balls.

 

[Beoga]

I was not talking about the whole passage. I used the word "ashamed" (kataischuno) in the same sense as it is used in Rom. 9:33. Thanks anyway for your trying to explain to me what I am trying to say. Thats very kind of you, but I believe that I pretty well have things under control in that department.

You can go back to your desk now. And don't be throwing any more spit balls.

wow calm down, i was saying that for clarification, for understanding. but hopefully you know what you are trying to say, that is important in life.
what desk?

 

[Dottie]

wow calm down, i was saying that for clarification, for understanding. but hopefully you know what you are trying to say, that is important in life.
what desk?

I'm glad you told me that. Why, it sounded for all the world like you were trying to put words in my mouth. Its been a long time since Iwas in grade school, so don't they have desks there anymore?

 

[Beoga]

I'm glad you told me that. Why, it sounded for all the world like you were trying to put words in my mouth. Its been a long time since Iwas in grade school, so don't they have desks there anymore?

is college considered grade school nowadays?

hehe, i have a female icon, hehe

 

[Dottie]

is college considered grade school nowadays?

hehe, i have a female icon, hehe

Well, I don't know what to tell you about your problem with the female icon. I don't know if there would be any medical help for that or not. Why do you ask about college being considered grade school nowadays? Did they let you skip some grades?

 

[Van]

why doesn't God put experiances and stuff in everyones lives that will make them "good soil"

I presented my understanding of what the Bible actually says concerning why folks accept or reject the gospel. Now you ask why God did not do it differently. God is sovereign, but He may have wanted us to choose the light, to trust in God, to the glory of God. If God can have mercy upon who He has mercy, He can do it in any way He decides. To assert otherwise is to put God in a box. God gave believers a job to do, the ministry of reconcilation.

 

[Reformationist]

As I have Fixed "coming to the light" and "entering through door" as being one and the same, Yes, that is basically what the Saviour taught. And I use the word "ashamed" in the same sense as it is used in Romans 9:33 when he says " As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

So why are some ashamed and some are not?

Any more questions or comments on my post? I mean, is that the only thing in the post that you could find to "pick at"?

Well, the rest of the post was leading up to the point of the post. I just responded to the point rather than all of the stuff leading up to it.

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

The question has been posed, why do some folks accept the gospel and other folks reject the gospel. According to Calvinist doctrine, the folks that reject the gospel are unable to respond because they lack the spiritual ability to respond.

Actually, the Calvinist/reformed position is that man lacks the inclination to respond favorably to the Gospel due to the effects of the Fall. Unregenerate man's inability is applicable in that he is incapable of inclining his will toward God in obedience or preparing himself thereunto.

However, this idea cannot be found in the bible.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Bible scholar you're not. These are only two of the many passages that explicitly state man's natural inability to submit to God.

But the Bible does explicitly explain why some folks accept the gospel and other folks reject it. Some folks are good soil and others are not. What does this mean? During our lives we have experiences and make decisions which shape our attitudes and beliefs. If we love darkness we will not be drawn to the light. But if we have been trained in the way we should go, we will be receptive to that line as a soil cultivated for a purpose.

This isn't either an answer or an explanation. All you've done is postponed the question. You believe the answer to the question of "why some folks accept the gospel and other folks reject it" is "some folks are good soil and others are not?" Okay. I'll ask the question that you seemed to have disregarded. Why are "some folks are good soil and others are not?"

John 6:45 tells us that unless we have learned from the Father we will not be drawn to the Son.

I'm not sure what version you're using but you might want to consider a different one. John 6:45 says a whole lot more than simply that we need to have learned from the Father to be drawn to the Son:

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, "And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

John 6:45 says that "EVERYONE who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Christ." Everyone. What does it mean to "hear and learn from the Father" Van? Being that Christ says that "EVERYONE who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Him," it might be a good idea if we figure out what He means. Any ideas?

For example, if you do not fear God, and your are unaware that God is Holy and you being a sinner are separated from Him, you will not be drawn to a Savior from the wrath of God upon sinners.

So what causes someone to become aware of this truth to the point where he is drawn to the Savior?

The Bible also indicates other issues dealing with receptivity to the Gospel. Folks might be drawn to the promises of the Gospel, they want to buy the spiritual fire insurance, but they are unwilling to give up everything and humbly trust in Jesus alone. So when difficulties arise, when their faith costs them things they hold dear in their heart, they fall away. The Bible also speaks of the gospel being choked out by bad company or other interests, again indicated a lack of a full blown committment to Jesus, mind, heart and soul.

You keep skating around an answer without answering. In fact, you create more questions than you answer. Why are some drawn to the promises of the Gospel while others are not? Are they smarter? Why do some recognize their need for spiritual fire insurance while others wholeheartedly reject it? Are they more humble? Why are some able to cast off the undesirable company in favor of living in obedience while other's are choked by the interests of this world? Are they more holy? More committed?

But because everyone who hears the call can accept, our job as ministers of reconciliation is to cultivate the lost, starting with a kids.

You say that everyone who hears the call can accept it. Does everyone hear the call? Do all who do hear the call actually accept it?

 

[Reformationist]

I was not talking about the whole passage. I used the word "ashamed" (kataischuno) in the same sense as it is used in Rom. 9:33. Thanks anyway for your trying to explain to me what I am trying to say. Thats very kind of you, but I believe that I pretty well have things under control in that department.

Wow. Pride goes before the Fall.

 

[tigersnare]

When you say my position on "original sin" has been "almost unanimously rejected as heretical by Christendom for 1600 years", that leaves a blank between your so-called Christendom and the teachings of the inspired apostles of at least 400 years. So why did it take so long for Christians to learn what you are advocating as being truth here?

"So called"? You realize we have records of this stuff right?
I think you have it backwards, it took 400 years for people to wander far enough from the teachings of the Apostles to start asserting that original sin was fiction.

It's beyond me that Pelagiunism is back, how can anyone subscribe to a 1600 year old heresy that has been repeatedly condemed by both the Catholic and Protestant Churches?

Thanks, but no thanks, for your advice to "reconsider my position in this matter". I'll take what the scriptures say any time over what such Philosophers as Tertullian, Cyprian, Augustine, and Calvin say.

You mean you'll take what you think the scriptues say, somehow I doubt your biblical knowledge and dedication to the scriptures surpasses Augustine and Calvin. In the end, this is the height of human pride, you are your own final authority on the scriptures.

 

[Dottie]

So why are some ashamed and some are not?


Well, the rest of the post was leading up to the point of the post. I just responded to the point rather than all of the stuff leading up to it.

Thanks,
God bless

According to what Jesus said, some "did the truth" and had nothing to be "ashamed" of, while others did deeds of evil, and knew that "coming to the light" would expose their deeds as being evil. So what is your point?

 

[JaimeMan]

See the explainatin in the T.U.L.I.P. explined Thread.

 

[Reformationist]

According to what Jesus said, some "did the truth" and had nothing to be "ashamed" of, while others did deeds of evil, and knew that "coming to the light" would expose their deeds as being evil. So what is your point?

So your point is simply that some were not ashamed of being exposed because they kept the commandments so when the light came they embraced the light while others, who didn't keep the commandments, were ashamed of being exposed by the light?

 

[Reformationist]

See the explainatin in the T.U.L.I.P. explined Thread.

Who is this directed at and to what is it in response?