How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

[Ben johnson]

Dmckay, I consider Calvinists my "saved brothers and sisters in Christ". There are many things on which you and I would agree --- such as, "salvation by grace through faith", and "growth and maturity required". I absolutely hope we can agree on the "fellowship nature of salvation" --- that is, salvation being the indwelt fellowship between the believer, and the Holy Spirit and Jesus.

Yet --- specific election, is not in Scripture. We are "elect", who believe. Belief receives the Holy Spirit, through whom is THEN brought regeneration. This against "regeneration leads to saving-faith/belief".

Saving faith is charged to the person, not "gifted by God".

Verse after verse warns us to "persevere", charging us with "diligence in our salvation". Examples of those who FELL are given, along with warnings "not to imitate them".

There are verses that demonstrate "atonement is UNIVERSAL in availability", not "limited". There are cases of "people falling from salvation".

The Holy Spirit is resistible, even by those who WERE saved.

Happy to discuss any of these verses as you wish.

 

[cygnusx1]

Dmckay, I consider Calvinists my "saved brothers and sisters in Christ". There are many things on which you and I would agree --- such as, "salvation by grace through faith", and "growth and maturity required". I absolutely hope we can agree on the "fellowship nature of salvation" --- that is, salvation being the indwelt fellowship between the believer, and the Holy Spirit and Jesus.

Yet --- specific election, is not in Scripture. We are "elect", who believe. Belief receives the Holy Spirit, through whom is THEN brought regeneration. This against "regeneration leads to saving-faith/belief".

Saving faith is charged to the person, not "gifted by God".

Verse after verse warns us to "persevere", charging us with "diligence in our salvation". Examples of those who FELL are given, along with warnings "not to imitate them".

There are verses that demonstrate "atonement is UNIVERSAL in availability", not "limited". There are cases of "people falling from salvation".

The Holy Spirit is resistible, even by those who WERE saved.

Happy to discuss any of these verses as you wish.

I just hope the first words you hear when you meet The Lord is "You didn't choose me I chose you" that would be something wouldn't it ...

 

[Ben johnson]

I just hope the first words you hear when you meet The Lord is "You didn't choose me I chose you" that would be something wouldn't it ...

And here I was thinkin', He would say: "Ben, you were right!"

You chose an interesting passage; John15:16. First, this in a passage that speaks of being CUT OFF from salvation, verses 15:2, and 6. Second, Jesus was speaking to the Disciples; thus, "I chose you (TWELVE) to be Disciples".

Third --- contrast this with John6:67-70, where Jesus is asking if any of the twelve were GOING to leave Him. He said, "Did I not choose all TWELVE of you, and one of you is a devil (one is GOING to leave)?"

Leaving, even for those chosen to be Disciples, is very much presented as "possible outcome". Isn't it?

(Ben sits back in anticipation of the answer, waiting with baited breath...)

(Ben wonders how he has "baited breath" --- it was only turkey, dressing, oh -- 'taters, mashed 'taters. And brushed his teeth. Shouldn't be any baited breath, he's sure o' it...)

 

[Van]

Ben, I think your trap was baited with turkey breath. Being chosen by God does not equate with being chosen for salvation by God. God can choose folks such as Judas for His purpose to bring about His foretold plan of redemption. Esau was chosen and Pharaoh was chosen.

Being cut off from salvation may mean being cut off from realized salvation, someone who is indwelt, but I do not think so. John 15:2 speaks of someone with no fruit, therefore he is in the vine, but Christ is not in him, he is not indwelt. Therefore, drum roll please, folks are cut off from the threshhold or entry point of salvation. They have heard the gospel but do not believe in their hearts and therefore have not be individually chosen, bapitized into Christ and indwelt.

 

[Romanbear]

Hi Van;

They have heard the gospel but do not believe in their hearts and therefore have not be individually chosen, bapitized into Christ and indwelt.

Well to begin with Esau wasn't chosen. How ever he was still blessed. His brother Jacob was chosen to Father a nation known as Israel. Calvinist really like to point to Esau and Jacob to support there ideas of election being individual.

All election means is that you been chosen for Salvation. It doesn't guarantee your Salvation. If you claim you are Guaranteed through predestination you are fooling your self to think that God can't change His mind.

God does Change His mind in Gen6:6 for Noah and In Gen 19 for Lot. He also changed the destination of His own that rejected Him. He broke there branches out of the tree. They lost there destination and got a new one. The Greek word "Proorzio" for which predestinated is translated from is not defined as unalterable in the Ancient Greek. But originally had one meaning the root meaning "predetermined"

God can choose folks such as Judas for His purpose to bring about His foretold plan of redemption.

Judas was not chosen to betray Christ even though Jesus knew that He would betray Him. It was already in His heart before given to Christ. He was given to Christ by the Father. Judas was in fact elected for Salvation since it is he who was lost by Christ so that things would be fulfilled. Judas was also called the son of perdition because he was lost. He didn't follow Christ because he loved Him but because they appointed him treasurer. He was after what ever he could get. His God was money.

In Christ;

Romanbear

 

[Van]

Well to begin with Esau wasn't chosen.

I think Esau was chosen from the womb to fulfill God's purpose based on Genesis 25:23.

All election means is that you been chosen for Salvation.

I think this is a useful way of looking at the term, but it is an arbitrary definition. Eklektos means, according to the lexicon, to be chosen. In 1 Peter 2:6 scripture applies the term to God's choice of Jesus.

Romanbear, I am not a Calvinist and so I do not claim my salvation is guaranteed because of predestination. My salvation is guaranteed by being indwelt as a pledge from God to an inheritance of eternal life, and God keeps His word. I certainly agree scripture contains many examples of God changing His mind, but I do not agree there are any examples of God blotting anyone's name out of the Lamb's book of life. I believe when we are saved during our lifetime based on God accepting our faith, as depraved as it may be, we are enrolled in Heaven, our name is entered and nothing can pluck us out.

The term predestined is only applied to features of God's salvation plan which was formulated before the world began, and to those "in Christ". Our lives post salvation are predestined to some degree, we will be conformed to the image of Christ. But there is no text that even suggests we are predestined to salvation, none zip, nada. After salvation we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and predestined to receive an inheritance of eternal life.

Judas was chosen to betray Christ as foretold in scripture. Judas was not elected to salvation, he was chosen for a purpose and God intervened as necessary to bring about that purpose.

 

[Ben johnson]

Judas was not chosen to betray Christ even though Jesus knew that He would betray Him. It was already in His heart before given to Christ. He was given to Christ by the Father. Judas was in fact elected for Salvation since it is he who was lost by Christ so that things would be fulfilled. Judas was also called the son of perdition because he was lost. He didn't follow Christ because he loved Him but because they appointed him treasurer. He was after what ever he could get. His God was money.

I think there was a time, when Judas believed. And Jesus presents "leaving", as equally possible for the other eleven disciples. Read John6:67-70 and explain to me "how Jesus did not indicate leaving was just as possible for the others, as it was for Judas"?

 

[Romanbear]

Hi Ben;

I think there was a time, when Judas believed. And Jesus presents "leaving", as equally possible for the other eleven disciples. Read John6:67-70 and explain to me "how Jesus did not indicate leaving was just as possible for the others, as it was for Judas"?

It was very possible although he did choose Judas for Salvation even though the scriptures says he was a devil. Actually the way I see the actions of all the disciples is that they all betrayed him by shear denial. Thomas wasn't sure of Christ until He rose from the dead and he touched His wounds. I think that there wasn't even one who was sure. Who knows if Judas hadn't committed suicide Christ may have even forgiven him just like He did Peter. Isn't denial just another form of betrayal?, and what about doubt?. Can anyone doubt Christ' existence and be saved. I can't! Peter was willing to fight off His accusers and yet even Peter didn't fully understand, though it was revealed to him who Christ really was by God the Father Himself.

I find it amazing that not one of them admitted they were followers of Christ openly.

I really doubt that anyone of them were saved at all until after the resurrection. Because Christ had not made that sacrifice for there sins yet. I know some feel that all you have to do is believe and this is true except for Judas there had been no blood sacrifice. No one is saved to eternal life with out the blood and there is no scripture that says man has eternal life until Christ. There wasn't anything mentioned in the old testament of eternal life. Although Christ Him self mentioned it. No other prophet ever did before Him.

I believe that before Christ. The righteous men's souls were set aside and when Christ was sacrificed and died he went to a placed called Abraham's bosom and offered them Salvation and set those free who placed there trust in Him. At any rate no one had eternal life until after Christ... Saved before Christ meant you were in Hell and after Christ saved meant you would live and rein for ever with Christ. One word meaning the same thing with different results.

In Christ;

Romanbear

 

[Dmckay]

Question for all of you who are being so negative about what you perceive to be Calvinism. I am not a Calvinist. I was ordained to the Conservative Baptist Ministry in 1980. I have never read the works of Calvin and I am unfamiliar with his teaching. All I know is that T.U.L.I.P. or the five pronouncements of the Synod of Dort that were written is response to the Remonstrant's heresy (this group later took the name of Arminianism in honor of their leader) are most often tied to John Calvin. My question then is exactly what is it that you are so adamant needds to be refuted? Even while I was in Bible College and Seminary Calvin or T.U.L.I.P. were spoken of as if their source was the Pit of Tartarus.

 

[Romanbear]

Hi Van;

I think this is a useful way of looking at the term, but it is an arbitrary definition. Eklektos means, according to the lexicon, to be chosen. In 1 Peter 2:6 scripture applies the term to God's choice of Jesus.

Of course our election is arbitrary if there were rules then there would be a set criteria for this election. Making God a respecter of men. Election is indeed unconditional, but not as the Calvinist views it . Election is unconditional because it is arbitrary. There are no rules, ( This is how He remains impartial) because we are all elected as Jews and Gentiles. If anyone was were elected individually then show me one who was elected as an individual. Please don't use Jacob as an example; because his choosing at the time was to Father a nation not for Salvation. Even though this nation was indeed elected before Jacob for Salvation. As far as the meaning of election. It simply means chosen In the Ancient Greek. And it isn't according to any lexicon because there wasn't any at the time it was first mentioned. So what the LXX says doesn't mean anything at all. It's just another Catholic book as far as I'm concerned Translated by Catholics for Catholicism. A very poor translation

I am not a Calvinist

I'm sorry for thinking you may be a Calvinist. Praise God you aren't.

God keeps His word.

I agree that God keep's His word as long as that contract isn't broken by us. Because if our own faith fails we also can be broken out of the tree for nonbelief. His word says so. Besides He already broke most of the Jews out. So where do get the idea God won't do the same to you if you loose your faith.

I believe when we are saved during our lifetime based on God accepting our faith, as depraved as it may be, we are enrolled in Heaven, our name is entered and nothing can pluck us out.

God can and does kick men out. For several reasons, Unbelief, Not forgiving your brother, Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, And for adding and taking away from scripture. All well documented and yet denied by those who would believe in the lie of OSAS. I'm not saying that sinning against your neighbor or stealing a paper clip or 10,000,000. dollars will cost you your life but there are sins unto death.

The term predestined is only applied to features of God's salvation plan which was formulated before the world began, and to those "in Christ". Our lives post salvation are predestined to some degree, we will be conformed to the image of Christ. But there is no text that even suggests we are predestined to salvation, none zip, nada. After salvation we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and predestined to receive an inheritance of eternal life.

God has a Salvation plan for everyone, and it is us who messes up His plans. We are all created for righteousness, not for destruction. If we were created for destruction then it wouldn't be our fault but the one who created us in such a fashion that we could not help our selves.

Lets place blame where it belongs and stand up and admit that it is our fault if we wind up in Hell. Not God's.

Judas was chosen to betray Christ as foretold in scripture. Judas was not elected to salvation, he was chosen for a purpose and God intervened as necessary to bring about that purpose.

Yes a betrayal was in prophecy but no one was named as the offender. So much for the false predestination of Judas as an individual. Especially since IMHO all the disciples betrayed Christ just as we all have. Sin can be forgiven but we must die to it every day.

May God Bless You;
In Christ;
Romanbear

 

[Van]

Besides He already broke most of the Jews out. So where do get the idea God won't do the same to you if you loose your faith.

My idea is that if I am indwelt, my faith is protected by God, and therefore I will overcome. Those that loose faith were never indwelt, they went out from us because they we not of us.

I said your definition of the term election as refering only to salvation was arbitrary. Election is not arbitrary, it is conditional, God saves believers in Christ.

God chose many individuals for His purpose. He chose Christ as His Chosen One. God chose the twelve disciples of Christ for His purpose. God chose Paul from the womb, God chose David from the womb, God chose Pharoah.

God can and does kick men out. For several reasons, Unbelief, Not forgiving your brother, Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, And for adding and taking away from scripture. All well documented and yet denied by those who would believe in the lie of OSAS.

The assertion that the folks meantioned were indwelt does not have scriptural support. Jesus demonstrated that He was sent from God by performing miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit, and if anyone rejects that truth they blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and as long as they remain unbelievers in Christ, they will not receive forgiveness. In other words, the passage refers to the unsaved.

Lets look at another, John says in Revelation that some folks will have their part of the tree of life taken away. Again the idea asserted by folks opposed to the doctrine of once saved, always saved, is this means the guy was saved because he had a part of the tree of life. But this could only be talking about the opportunity for salvation, rather than realized salvation. And again in Romans 11, the idea being presented is that we should live in fear, for if we lose faith, we were never saved. It is an exhortation to be productive, to stay in the center of God's kindness.

Yes a betrayal was in prophecy but no one was named as the offender. So much for the false predestination of Judas as an individual.

Again, I did not say Judas was predestined as an individual before his life began. But God's predestined plan included a betrayer, and God chose Judas during his lifetime for that purpose, and God intervened as necessary to bring about the predestined betrayal. Simiarly, God could name an individual hundreds of years before his birth and tell us in scripture about some action the individual will take. At a time and place of God's choosing, an individual is born, named, nurtured for good or ill, and influenced sufficiently such that God's predestined activity occurs. These are part of the limited predestination involved with bringing God's predetermined plan to fruition.

I do not think everybody has an opportunity to receive the gospel. Some folks die before they hear it. These folks go to hell because they are in a sinful state due to Adam, and because they violated the law written on their hearts such as treating others with integrety. Paul deals with three types of folks, (1) those without the Law of Moses, (2) those with the Law of Moses, and (3) those from the above groups who are placed in Christ during their lifetime by the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit.

But Hell should not be seen as anything but a place the unsaved go to receive perfect justice. If a person didn't volitionally sin, they will not be punished, because the punishment is according to their deeds, physical and mental.

 

[Romanbear]

Hi Van;

My idea is that if I am indwelt, my faith is protected by God, and therefore I will overcome. Those that loose faith were never indwelt, they went out from us because they we not of us.

Hebrews say that these have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit.





Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I said your definition of the term election as referring only to salvation was arbitrary. Election is not arbitrary, it is conditional, God saves believers in Christ.

I disagree election is unconditional although this does not define it the same way as Calvinism defines it. Election is universal. Salvation is not election Salvation is conditional on our trust in Christ. The two are separate.

God chose many individuals for His purpose. He chose Christ as His Chosen One. God chose the twelve disciples of Christ for His purpose. God chose Paul from the womb, God chose David from the womb, God chose Pharoah.

Yes and according to scripture Pharaoh rejected Him and denied Him as God.

The assertion that the folks mentioned were indwelt does not have scriptural support.

My Advice is to study Hebrews 6:4-6

Again the idea asserted by folks opposed to the doctrine of once saved, always saved, is this means the guy was saved because he had a part of the tree of life. But this could only be talking about the opportunity for salvation, rather than realized salvation.

I must not understand what you are talking about because you seem to be saying that if scripture doesn't say what you want, you discard it as not relevant. Hebrews 6:4-6 couldn't be more clear

I do not think everybody has an opportunity to receive the gospel.

It's not the gospel that saves it's Christ check out this verse below;





Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:





I believe what God's word says we understand the things of God even without the gospel. Some people avoid the light simply because they love darkness. Is this an excuse as well.

But Hell should not be seen as anything but a place the unsaved go to receive perfect justice.

I agree.

If a person didn't volitionally sin, they will not be punished,

Everyone who sins knows at the time they do it that it is sin. So just how do you sin, without the desire to do so. Of course there are those who never listen to there conscience tell them that they shouldn't do it so they look for an excuse as if they didn't know. If you don't know right from wrong I would suggest you find out because there is no excuse for sin just as there is no excuse for ignorance of the Law. The Law is everyone's responsibility. Without which we have nothing but chaos.

I would encourage you to study scripture and stop listening to the thoughts of other men. Let God speak to your heart.

In Christ;

Romanbear

 

[Van]

Romanbear, I like to think I have studied scriptures and am not ensnared in the clever stories of men. Here is my take on Hebrews 6:4-6.

Hebrews 6:4-6 says, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
This passage can be paraphrased as follows: If someone has accepted the gospel (been enlightened) they have accepted the truth of God’s gift, brought by the power of the Holy Spirit and have recognized the goodness of the gospel and those believers that shared the gospel. If then, the people with knowledge of the gospel fall away, it is impossible to turn them back because as long as they are rejecting Christ and His gospel, there is no other way to turn to God.

The key to this passage, in my view, is that it is God who chooses us and therefore after we hear the gospel and we make a commitment to Christ, as depraved as the commitment might be, it is God who puts us into Christ. If God does not accept our “faith” as heart-felt, for whoever believes in his heart will be saved, we enter the condition described in Hebrews 6:4-6, where we can fall away even though we have received the message (tasted the goodness of the word of God). In verses 7 and 8, the author of Hebrews points out that the gospel message must fall on good soil, cultivated soil or it will not produce a worthwhile result. Jesus explained this same concept in the parable of the four soils (Matthew 13:1-23).

I disagree election is unconditional although this does not define it the same way as Calvinism defines it. Election is universal. Salvation is not election Salvation is conditional on our trust in Christ. The two are separate.

I am sorry, but I have read the above several times and I am still unsure what you are saying. I believe the elect are the saved. I believe that God sets us apart, and that sovereign choice by God is our election unto salvation. I believe God sets us apart when the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ and then indwells us with the Spirit of Christ such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us. Backing up, God chooses to set us apart based on His sovereign acceptance of our faith. We can hear the gospel and believe till the cows come home, but unless God puts us in Christ, we are only partakers of the gift and at this point we can still fall away. But if the gospel is readily accepted by us and sinks into our heart such that our faith is heart-felt, then God has promised to set us apart unto salvation per John 3:16.

Of course Pharoah rejected God, God hardened his heart! Pharoah was chosen for a purpose - to make God's salvation of the Jews more glorious.

I will certainly agree that it is Christ who saves us. But I learned of Christ by hearing the good news and based on the gospel message I placed my trust in Christ.

And I agree that if we live long enough and have a sufficently functional mind, we will choose to sin. Every one of us. But some folks are feeble-minded and some folks die in the womb or before they know right from wrong. I believe these folks who never trusted in Christ will remain separated from God forever, but instead will rest in peace without concious awarness of any kind.

 

[Beoga]

I'm sorry for thinking you may be a Calvinist. Praise God you aren't.

why are you praising God for this, shouldn't you be praising him for his decision?

i just find that statement pretty funny and ironic.

 

[Romanbear]

Hi Van;

I am sorry, but I have read the above several times and I am still unsure what you are saying. I believe the elect are the saved.

First of all I'm not offended that you don't understand I probably didn't explain myself well enough. I view this scripture in the new testament as the election of the Gentiles as a whole;

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

If Salvation has come to the Gentiles then everyone is elected. For about 4000 years Salvation was of the Jews. Then Christ came and His own rejected Him. The Jews were the chosen of God, but this alone did not insure there Salvation.

This is why I see election as universal.





Paul stated;

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.





I have to admit that I at one time I believed as you do and until I searched it out, I didn't really understand it. I have to be honest in my faith I have to know why I believe what I believe. Most all want to be right, I know I do. So I search everyday to see if what I've been taught is true. Some of what I have been taught is mans Ideas, that aren't even found in scripture. I quickly dumped what was not there and searched for the truth. I have to take the word of God as truth not that of men. It is God that I believe in so I never place confidence in men (Ps 118:8)

I have more to say I'll be back tomorrow

In Christ; Romanbear

 

[Reformationist]

Ok. So justice is defined herein:

God creates one man to suffer eternally and another man to live forever with God.

This is, of course, regardless of the man's will -- because God has willed it for him.

God's choice may not be based on the will of the creation but it doesn't disregard it. All of us are born aligned against our Creator. The nature of some He changes. Others He leaves to their depraved spiritual polarity.

I'm sorry, but I cannot see that as justice. Justice means that people get what they deserve, and if someone rebels against God unwillingly then that man does not deserve the punishment to rebellion.

No man rebels against God unwillingly. Each of us sin because we desire that which violates God's law more than we desire to obey It.

I think that either we are all misinterpreting this passage, or that Paul was wrong *gasp*.

If Paul was wrong in the pages of infallible revelation then God was wrong. God divinely superintended the composition of biblical epistles and kept them free from error.

What about Romans 2? Paul explains that those who live without the law are judged aside from the law.

No one lives without the law of God for He has written it upon the hearts of all of His creation.

If these said people were pre-destined then why are they judged?

The biblical doctrine of predestination is not fatalism. Mankind is guilty before God for his choices because he makes them free from external coersion.

Why is anyone judged for God's actions?

The only people judged for the actions of God are believers, who receive salvation for His work.

What about this passage?
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9)

I assume you mean how is this compatible with the belief that God eternally ordains some to condemnation. If so, this passage, like all others, must be qualified by context. Immediate context gives little clue as to the scope of its meaning, though it does include the qualifier "you." To whom is the promise made? Whom is God patient with? An examination of every verse up to, and including 3:9 shows that the "you" is those who have inherited the precious faith through which they are saved. That passage is just as properly rendered, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting any of you to perish, but everyone of you to come to repentance."

Or this one?
5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
(Luke 13:5 implies that one has a choice in the matter -- as do countless other passages)

Do not confuse the imperative with the indicative. To state the truth that we must repent doesn't mean that unregenerate man has the spiritual capacity to repent. Repentence is the result of a change in our constituent fallen nature. We cannot effect this change ourselves so until God does so not only will we never repent, we will never even want to repent.

John 3:16 anyone?
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[ 3:16 Or his only begotten Son] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(does this not imply that we have a choice?)

No. Not at all. It speaks nothing of choice. It merely says that because of God's love He sent His Son to secure the salvation of all for whom He sent Him. The question here is, does "the world" refer to "all people without exception" or is it a reference to a different group of people?

Why are they perishing?
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
(2 Thes 2:10 -- because they refuse. Not because God refuses)

God never refuses any who come to Him. Mankind is guilty before God because of his own rejection of God. No one has said otherwise, certainly not the Calvinist. The question you should ask is, "who can, and does, love the truth?" Can anyone love the truth? Are we, by nature, able to obey God?

Either we are misinterpreting Paul in Romans 9, these passages are wrong, or Paul is wrong in Romans 9.

Or you're misinterpreting those passages.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Accountability suggests that we have some degree of free will or choice, which contracticts Calvinism. If we don't have a choice, it's not our accountability, it's just God using human souls that he has predetermined to suffer as vessels for his wrath.

WaZoO, you should learn what a theological stance professes before you make claims against it. Calvinism does not suggest that man's will is not free in any degree. What Calvinism does state is that man freely makes the decisions he makes based on the desires of his heart. If unregenerate man only ever desires to rebel against the authority of God then that is all he will freely choose to do.

God bless

 

[Ben johnson]

Calvinism does not suggest that man's will is not free in any degree. What Calvinism does state is that man freely makes the decisions he makes based on the desires of his heart. If unregenerate man only ever desires to rebel against the authority of God then that is all he will freely choose to do.

(Ben hopes he's not intruding...)

Calvinists assert that "there is free will". But also assert that "man's will follows their hearts; if regenerated, he WILL desire to follow God (cannot resist), and if NOT regenerated he will desire to sin (can't resist that either). Therefore, it is not "accurate representation of Calvinism" to say "Calvinists deny free will" --- it is, rather, our assessment of the position.

If regeneration is unchosen, unilaterally-instilled-by-God, and if therefore "will ALWAYS turns towards God subsequently", then man cannot be said to have "free will" --- for his will is dictated by unilateral regeneration, therefore his will is dictated by God.

"Assessment", not "representation"...

 

[Van]

Romanbear, yes I agree that God's offer of salvation is to the whole world, all mankind. But this does not indicate God chooses everyone for salvation, i.e. Universalism. So if we restrict the term election, which in general means choice, to God's choice of individuals for salvation, then "election" in this sense is not universal. Only believers in Christ are saved, all others are condemned, John 3:16-18.

 

[Romanbear]

Hi Van;

Sorry about having to leave the board last night but I had to get ready for something special.

So if we restrict the term election, which in general means choice, to God's choice of individuals for salvation, then "election" in this sense is not universal. Only believers in Christ are saved, all others are condemned,

I agree this is true if it were restricted, but this is not the reason most aren't saved. The problem is this restriction IMHO would make election individual. Individual election cannot be proven. We know that election is being chosen for Salvation but it doesn't insure Salvation because of a condition in Salvation.

At one time I could not believe that election was unconditional because of the way it was explained to me by Calvinist. They seem to say that it is unconditional and interpret it a completely different way by making it individual and very conditional,

First I have to explain there idea of it and tell you my objections to there ideas. Calvinism teaches that election is a selective process that is random because God cannot be a respecter of men. So He only chooses some at random regardless of any thing they have done them selves so God can remain a non respecter of men. This means that election is left to chance. I don't believe in Chance. I cannot accept chance.





The Arminians believe that election is individual as well but it is conditioned upon how God see's you in your life as to whether or not you would have chose Him on your own. This makes God a respecter of men;





Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.





If God inspected your life before creation and found you worthy of election then He would be respecting you because of that quality. So this can't be right either

So I searched for the truth and what I found is that there is no such thing as individual election anywhere in the Bible. There is no such thing as an unalterable plan for Salvation for anyone. Salvation is conditional up on your trust in Christ. Election IMHO is the Ability to have Salvation if I trust in Christ. He first Chose me he even gave me the faith I needed through the hearing of the word. Salvation is all of Christ we just have to trust in Him.





If election is individual and is insurance that we will be saved then why did Peter give us all this message;





2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:









I had to study this one for quite a while. Please read it in context , then tell me how we make our calling and election sure and why we should have to if election is the insurance of Salvation.



The "His own" referred to in this next verse are the Jewish elect.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.





They didn't receive Him because they would not believe in Him they rejected Him for this and there election was taken away.





Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.





Jews were not ever elected individually they all had the opportunity for Salvation which is election. Calvinist use these verses to show that not all are elected.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.





The reason they were not His sheep is because they were the same Jews who had rejected Him when He came to them. There rejection is because of unbelief. You cannot be saved and not believe in Christ. because he is the only way there is for Salvation. Believing in Christ means we have to trust in Him to save us. and it is we who first trust in Him.

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.





This may all seem to be nothing more than semantics to you. To me truth is most important and study is how we show our selves approved.

May God Bless,

In Christ;

Romanbear