How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

[LJSGM]

Context won't reveal that Jesus was correcting the false premise of their question, that there is ANYthing WE do to merit salvation, only mature intelligence can do that.

Jesus points it out to them, that belief is the work of God, because egocentric men & women automaticaly take credit for the few good things they do, when in fact, nothing done of themselves is better than filthy rags to God.

Don't only read it in context, read it with an open mind.
I'm tempted to not give you anti-merit verses.
Your attitude sucks.

my attitude sucks because I disagree with you? You're the one bad mouthing me, and MY attitude sucks? Get over yourself there man.

 

[Rick Otto]

I'm over myself, I'm just burnt by the way you disagree.
I expect disagreement, not being told to "read it in context" when context doesn't even affect the issue.

 

[LJSGM]

I'm over myself, I'm just burnt by the way you disagree.
I expect disagreement, not being told to "read it in context" when context doesn't even affect the issue.

OH, I always feel so much love in these calvinist forums

I think I'll take that verse that says "you will know a tree by it's fruit" to heart in this case

 

[Rick Otto]

Have a lovin' spoonfull of what you dish.

 

[LJSGM]

Have a lovin' spoonfull of what you dish.

Ok, my accuser and judge. Please leave me alone now, and I'll have a NICE disscussion with someone else. Thanks

 

[Rick Otto]

That's right. I called you out and enunciated your iniquity.
It was called for. report me, it'll make ya feel better.
Then you can have your "NICE" discussion where nobody spanks you for bein' naughty, and you can be above bein' called out on it.

 

[LJSGM]

That's right. I called you out and enunciated your iniquity.
It was called for. report me, it'll make ya feel better.
Then you can have your "NICE" discussion where nobody spanks you for bein' naughty, and you can be above bein' called out on it.

should we not practice what we preach instead of being hypocrites? I'm sorry that your precieved an attitude on my part, and I'll definately think about it. Now your turn

 

[Rick Otto]

LOL, OK then.
I'll be thinkin' about ya thinkin' about it.

Sorry I lost my temper. I'll go walk down to the coffee shop & grab a cup for a chill-out.

 

[LJSGM]

LOL, OK then.
I'll be thinkin' about ya thinkin' about it.

Sorry I lost my temper. I'll go walk down to the coffee shop & grab a cup for a chill-out.

ooppps, sorry I reported you already.

I must admit, I am going through a hard time right now, so please forgive me

what a mess

 

[Jipsah]

OH, I always feel so much love in these calvinist forums

You mean the warm affection shown by the Arminians for their Calvinist brethren? Yeah, touching isn't it?

 

[Rick Otto]

She's tryin' Jipsah.
Don't worry about the report.
I anticipated it.
Cost of doin' business.
A good cup of Dark Sumatra always makes messes seem manageable!

I been hittin' some rough air too, but my wife & son are in fairly good spirits, so it doesn't seem so bleak.

 

[LJSGM]

You mean the warm affection shown by the Arminians for their Calvinist brethren? Yeah, touching isn't it?

I'm not an Arminian, I've never read even one thing he's writen down or said. It's strange how calvinists believe that you're either one or the other. Where do universalists and all other beliefs fall into this equation? They're all Arminians too? Is this some sort of you against me thing? Because I have never believed that. Debates/discussions are just that, and one shouldn't take them too personally. Now hopefully we've all forgiven each other and can move on from here.

 

[Oye11]

I'm not an Arminian, I've never read even one thing he's writen down or said. It's strange how calvinists believe that you're either one or the other. Where do universalists and all other beliefs fall into this equation? They're all Arminians too? Is this some sort of you against me thing? Because I have never believed that. Debates/discussions are just that, and one shouldn't take them too personally. Now hopefully we've all forgiven each other and can move on from here.

Well, "Arminian" to them is pretty much any Christian who disagrees with their TULIP claims. This is so, in spite of the fact that endless Christian theologians taught at odds with Calvinism long before Jacob Arminius was born. Many Calvinists feel very "right" however which can carry it`s own form of insidious pride as they shout at what they feel is the darkness. Despair not though. Though rather prominent on the internet, they remain a small minority of Christians, and thankfully, don`t go around knocking on doors...

 

[Rick Otto]

Arminians believe in Free Will.
Which means they don't believe in predestination or that The Fall was complete.
They believe we humans still have a redeeming characteristic (free will) that God finds so adorable, He won't interfere with it.
They say they credit salvation to the mercy of grace, but in the same breath, insist we earn salvation by our self-generated free act of belief.
That we believe is a work of God, the author & finisher of our faith.
One can find safety & pride in larger groups & "endless theologians", but that isn't promoted in scripture.

 

[Ben johnson]

you are not listening ben.

Am too...

scriptures declare one thing , "those in the flesh CANNOT please God" and you argue against scripture and say that they can !

Nope, I agree with them. And with you --- "men cannot please God, while they are in the flesh".

Our disagreement is on "whether men have the choice to walk in the flesh, or in the Spirit".

Do you see that? If we walk in the flesh, we cannot please God; if we walk in the Spirit, and BY the Spirit put to death our flesh, then we live.

So it's not "pleasing God" we're arguing; it's "walking"...

it's not difficult to see you are in error , just admit it , like I know you are going to.

Heh heh; I look forward to your response.

cygnus is more optimistic than I

All ya' hafta do, is answer the Scriptures I've cited.

I'm optimistic that you will.
(Try to answer, that is...)

 

[Ben johnson]

That is exactly what one is not only obligated, but bound and determined to do - that which is predestined by God.

Hi, Rick. That passage (Rom8:12-14) does not read like "God fore-determined we would walk in the Spirit".

Indeed, none of Romans reads like that. Take ch2 --- where Paul says "those WHO by doing good seek for glory honor and immortality, receive eternal life; but those WHO ...do not obey the truth, wrath." And that's in the context of: "God's patience and kindness are MEANT to lead you to repentance; but your hard unrepentant heart is making God MAD...."

I don't see anything of "God-fore-determined-faith/repentance/walking".

Only if I'm thinking with my flesh, & not my spirit.
For anything in creation to not be determined, means God didn't know what He was creating.

Or God chose to allow freedom...

God is not ignorant.

I agree.

We are only free to be what we were created to be.

I disagree (you knew I would.)

If we were created to deny God's sovereignity, it is all we will be able to do, even when repeatedly shown scripture that affirms His sovereignity.

And God would condemn to firey Hell those He SOVEREIGNLY-CREATED for Hell.

That's not "just", Rick.

If we were created only to believe we are free of His sovereignity, that is all we will be capable of believing.

Again, that conflicts with many passages; like Rom2:6-8.

 

[Rick Otto]

Men who don't have a living spirit can't choose to walk in the spirit & believe.
They can only fool themselves into believing they can.
That's why its called "born again".
Instead of simply being a living soul, dead in spirit, grace irresistably births a living spirit.
How's your book coming along?
Have you titled it yet?
Maybe "The Death Of The Reformation"?
Maybe that's too stuffy & grandiose... how 'bout something more trendy with shock-value for eye candy, like "Killing Calvin"?

 

[Oye11]

Arminians believe in Free Will.
Which means they don't believe in predestination or that The Fall was complete.
They believe we humans still have a redeeming characteristic (free will) that God finds so adorable, He won't interfere with it.
They say they credit salvation to the mercy of grace, but in the same breath, insist we earn salvation by our self-generated free act of belief.
That we believe is a work of God, the author & finisher of our faith.
One can find safety & pride in larger groups & "endless theologians", but that isn't promoted in scripture.

Sounds like a big straw man to me. Virtually all theologians prior to Calvin taught that a response precedes conversion and that salvation once attained can be forfeited through rebellion. In fact Calvin was the first to teach OSAS. And classical Arminianism does not teach that salvation is attained apart from grace. And no orthodox theologians taught that man is "adorable." Nice pile of tripe...

 

[Ben johnson]

Faith is a work.
But it is a work of God, not of ourselves.
Joh 6:29 - Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Per verse 27-28, God's work (that we believe), is work WE WORK. Hmmm; perhaps that didn't make sense. Said as Jesus delivered it, "We WORK the work of God, believing".

That bears repeating; believing (savingly) is NOT something that "God works in us". It is God's work that WE WORK.

There's no way to deny what Jesus said in Jn6:27-29, is there?

 

[Ben johnson]

we are not saved BECAUSE we have faith or because we have works that complete our faith , we are saved BY GRACE through faith unto good works ........ Grace is opposed to merit of any kind.

No --- you hold to "we are saved BY GRACE through grace".

Saving-belief is not merit, Cygnus; it is the other side of the Universe from "merit".

It is brokenness, realizing our own inadequacy. It is conviction of our sinfulness, and deserving of Hellfire.

"Deserving", is "merit"; we merit Hell; believing that, we therefore believe in Christ. That's our only merit --- destruction.

Make sense?