How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

[Rightglory]

nobdysfool,

You are hardly an expert on Reformed Theology, RG. You've engaged in presuming to tell us what we believe, and wrapping yourself in the cloak of the Tradition of the EO church, complete with it's teaching that you cannot possibly see for yourself what the Bible teaches, but rather you let others do your thinking for you.

As I stated, 50 years ago there was much more consensus on Calvinism. But when you have someone saying they are a Calvinists and they move from 1 point, to even a 7 point Calvinists, one needs to wonder, just why even start with Calvin at all. You end up with a personal opinion that you just don't agree with Calvin and you adopt your very own. As do hundreds of others, who disagree with you from one point to the next.
The only reason I am Orthodox is that the Holy Spirit did what He does, leads men to the Truth. He does not give the Truth. He gave All Truth to the Apostles, why would He need to give it to you. It was meant to be a universal gospel, not a private one. In searching Orthodoxy for 4 years, I could not find where they differed from scripture in the least. I have still not found any after 10 years. Why would one wonder, that the Holy Spirit either lied, or could not preserve that Truth that He gave for all, from that time forth. That He could not preserve the ONE thing He left on this earth, the manifestation of His Incarnation, His Body composed of members, given authority shared with Him as Head of that Church. And you wonder why I believe In Christ and permit Christ, with the Holy Spirit to guard me from any error from His Truth. My only fear is that I have not permitted him to wrap me tighter in His grasp. If only Christ could actually do my thinking, but alas, he created me a free soul, to study, to research, to understand, to experience Him and accept His leading, to choose to align myself with Him, my will with His will as He has revealed to all of mankind.
On the other hand, I found that I was just to puny to think that I was so great that I would actually receive new revelation, not before ever beheld or understood within Christianity just for my personal benefit. That the Holy Spirit would deliver to me and to thousands of others additional Truth also not ever believed and understood before and that all these differences then had no relevance to anyone else because we are all saved by special revelation given to each person. There are actually many ways to understand just how one is saved. That the unity Christ prayed for was not the faith in Him, but just a unity of name, how we understood Him is inconsequencial.
That may seem harsh to you, but having been on both sides I have a much different perspective. I know what I believed before, I know how it differed from many within the several denominations I was a member of and of each other member around me. Each sincerely believed that what He held was that absolute truth as given by the Holy Spirit. It was at that point that the clarity struck that it could not possibly be the Holy Spirit. It was simply man boasting of his skill and will to be able to supposedly discern from a book that was not even the whole of the Gospel given to the Apostles. It was at that point that I began looking for that All Truth that Christ promised in John. It really did not take long, but it took 4 years to confirm it, to understand it fully. However, it is not the knowledge that is important as the putting it into practice which is what saves a man. It is the living of that union and communion with God, fulfilling the purpose of why I even exist, to glorify Him by working with Him, doing the works prepared for me.

 

[Rightglory]

Otto,

Foreknowlege is a result of having predetermined in divine council, that which would be (all creation).

Hardly. God does not need to predetermine anything just to know. He simply knows that it will occur. He did not predetermine that Judas betray Him, He knew, by His foreknowledge that Judas would betray. That is why He chose Him as a disciple. He was a faithful disciple up to the point when Jesus said He must die. There went the overthrow the the Roman oppressors and Judas departed and then betrayed Jesus. There is no decree here. Judas was free to choose and He did on his own choices and motives. But God knows, but does not decree.
They are not the same and one does not follow from the other.

Foreknowlege is not mere clairvoyance of an undetermined future. There can be no such thing as undetermined future (in the ultimate, the divine, sense).

The future is not undetermined. It is known. God works with the decreed things but uses foreknowledge to act on things. Prayer is totally useless in your view. If it is not known thus not preordained, why pray that someone would heal. He either will or will not based on a decree, like the examples Cygnus used with Peter, Judas and others. God is not transcendent as the Deist believe, but God is interactive in His Created order. He works and operates through His uncreated energies in His created order. That is why prayer is meaningful. It is true communication with God. It has purpose and meaning and can be answered. True miracles are not decreed action by God. They are God interacting within the created order.

I'm sure they felt that what they did, they needed to do.

Yes, both created the motives of their actions. Both actions were sin. Either man is free to choose to sin or not sin, or God decrees man to sin. If God decrees man to sin, I can accept that, but then on what basis is man judged. If God decreed beleivers, then on what basis can He judge. God is not better than you are in that God is doing the sinning, you are a mere tool of doing the sin. Much like using a hit man to commit your murder, but also actually being a ghost of sorts and moving his hand and finger to pull the trigger. That is what you have God doing with man.
Now, granted you say man has a will, he makes choices, but you, or Cygnus have also stated that man cannot do otherwise. That is not a choice, such as Peter and Judas again. God did not force them, did not decree that they do it, did not necessitate that they do it, but did allow it, since He created man free and has allowed sin to be part of this created order for now. It is a parasite of sorts, a disease that has an effect on man through his flesh. We tend to allow the flesh to rule over our spirit rather than permit the Spirit to rule our spirit. Those are the choices we make on the hour every hour we live.

Foreknowlege bears on all creation. All creation was known before it was created.

Yes, it does, but not all in creation was foreordained. Lets look at Adam.
Adam was created free, a will, the ability to rationalize, to choose. This was decreed. God in His sovereign wisdom created a human being in His image which included a will separate from his own. He wanted a creature that would return His love. Not just be a vehicle or tool to be a "pat on the back" type of reaction.
Thus to make it real, God gave Adam a command. A choice. Satan tempted Eve (Adam), Adam was not compelled to sin. Satan was known by God as well. He was driven out of heaven and made his abode between heaven and earth. Paul refers to Satan, as principalities and powers of the air. Adam freely choose to take Satan up on his offer.
Now, back up to creation again. In making man free, and knowing Satan was present God had foreknowledge that Adam would sin. He did not need to foreordain that Adam sin. In knowing this, He also had the plan that Christ would be the redeemer to overcome that condemnation, the sentence upon Adam.
Another one is selling Joseph into Egypt by His brothers. The sin of selling Joseph was not ordained, but God knew it would happen. In knowing this, He planned to make good of it as well, from the beginning. God does not cause man to sin, does not tempt man. Man is solely the cause of his sin or the devil enticing the desires of man.
To actually understand how God is God is not for us to know. He has revealed all we need to know about Him. The most difficult aspect is trying to understand no time frame. Time was a created thing just for man and the created order. God does not operate by time. A concept we do not fathom.

Wrong.They had choice. They were predestined to have choice, as much as they were predestined choose.

I agree with that. God predestined that man would be created in His Image, including a free will. A will that it would be man's responsibility to align it with God's will, which then created the necessity for revelation so we actually know God's will for us. If it was predetermined, we do not need to know anything. It is done for us. But your view does not recognize the will of man. You predestinate that some are decreed to believe. Where is the choice not to be believers? Where is the choice for an unbeliever to become a believer?
Then the obvious follows that this believer cannot fall from grace, because God preserves him from falling. How does God do that, besides predestinating, because each act must also be predestined, that He not sin, but if he does, this is also an act of predestination, which then makes God the active agent of sin in this man. You get by this predicament by saying that Christ atoned for all these sins. That is fine, but in needing atonement you are acknowledging that God causes this beleiver to sin in the first place. It makes atonement redundant and surely unnecessary. You cannot have it both ways. Either man has a will, a will independent of God's will, or man is but a tool of God's will. Man is not an agent of anything. He has absolutely no repsonsibility, thus no need to be judged. It makes judgement totally redundant and uncessary also.

Exactly. I didn't choose to be born. It was God's providential force.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with man's will. That Christ saved you from the condemnation of Adam was not your choice either. But once He did that and restored mankind from the fall, then we are back to man being free to choose. Man has no excuse in not selecting either to live with God or apart from Him. We will make the same choice as did Adam. We have a life time to make sure of that choice.
Because we were created with a will, we are forced to use that will. Respective of our salvation, there is only two, In Christ, or out of Christ. No other option. But we freely make that choice.

Paul didn't choose to believe, he was forced off his horse & blinded for three days - no "gentle knocking at the door" of his stone-cold Christian killing heart.

Quite contrary. He did not need to oblige God at all. But, on the other hand, we are not given privey here to God's foreknowledge as we were in Judas and Peter. But God knew it was the right time and knew that Paul would choose to change. Mary, did not need to accept the message of the Angel regarding the Birth of Jesus. That is why she is considered the opposite of Eve. She becomes the model of obedience when God calls. But God did not force Her to bear Christ.

Much the same. but not identical, not useless,eg. God willing, you could've chosen a different word than useless, like "predestined", or "predictable", or a phrase like "subject to God's plan", or somethin' like that

NO, it means the same. predestine is the same as necessity. Man (MUST) will do because God predestined, there is no choice. Subject to God's plan does not need predestination either. God can have a plan and direct man in such a way through His providence that man's will is not damaged, but still accomplishes then end result of God's plan. Here you have Peter and Judas and Joseph and Paul and probably many others as well.

 

[Rick Otto]

So you're gonna have to wait a minute!

Thanks!
I don't get a lot of that!

 

[Rick Otto]

So you're gonna have to wait a minute!

Thanks!
I don't get a lot of that!

Dang! Now ya went & made me self conscious about my beer & hangin' out on the moon...
I'll have to change an iota.

 

[John1and1]

Rick
Why do you only believe part of the scripture?

Why do you not believe it is NOT the Father's will that ANY man perish?

Why do you believe it is Gods will MOST people dont repent?

Why do you not believe the blood of Christ was shed for not only US but for the whole world?

Why do you not believe we can CHOOSE this day whom we will serve?

 

[Ben johnson]

Dang! Now ya went & made me self conscious about my beer & hangin' out on the moon...

The moon's too dangerous; it takes great effort going by there, not to be detected by the covert military base. But, then, we have our own base on another moon (sorry, can't tell you which one...)

And I've never had a beer; never been drunk. I predict that won't change...

Rick
Why do you only believe part of the scripture?

Why do you not believe it is NOT the Father's will that ANY man perish?

Why do you believe it is Gods will MOST people dont repent?

Why do you not believe the blood of Christ was shed for not only US but for the whole world?

Why do you not believe we can CHOOSE this day whom we will serve?

Welcome, John!

I'm looking forward to his answer to your post...

 

[nobdysfool]

Rick
Why do you only believe part of the scripture?

A rather snarky and altogether needless charge, as well as being a false one. Show a little respect, please.

Why do you not believe it is NOT the Father's will that ANY man perish?

You mean 2 Peter 3:9? You need to learn the concept of context. Peter is speaking of the Elect, because he's talking to the Elect. If you apply that to all men, Jesus could never come back, because He would have to wait for all men to be saved. Since a huge number of men have already died in their sins, even at that time, then it is obvious that either God isn't very good at getting His Way and fulfilling His desire, or you're not understanding what Peter is saying. I think it's safe to say that in your case, it is the latter.

Why do you believe it is Gods will MOST people dont repent?

Again, a baseless charge, which only tends to offend and to cause strife. I don't think you'll find anyone here saying that, certainly not the Calvinists. That charge is coming from the anti-Calvinists, due to their lack of knowledge of Calvinism, and their desire to "defeat" it by any means, even lying about it.

Why do you not believe the blood of Christ was shed for not only US but for the whole world?

The Blood of Christ is certainly valuable enough to save every man woman and child who ever lived, are living, or will live, but let's look at reality here. ONLY those whom God has chosen will be saved. You may not like that, but that's the way it is. Many, many people have died in their sins, without ever having had the opportunity to be saved. That's a reality that you apparently don't want to contemplate. If it were God's Will that they be saved, don't you think that He could and would have made salvation truly available to them? Since salvation is through Christ, there is no other way than him to be saved. Natural Revelation is not saving revelation. Natural revelation is only enough to make man without excuse, and therefore guilty before God. Natural Revelation ( Romans 1 ) is enough to condemn man, but not enough to save him.

Why do you not believe we can CHOOSE this day whom we will serve?

That choice was given to the people of God (Israel) and not all mankind. God has not placed the choice between life and death before all men without exception.

Context is important, and context is your friend. Please learn how to incorporate it into your bible study.

 

[John1and1]

You mean 2 Peter 3:9? You need to learn the concept of context. Peter is speaking of the Elect, because he's talking to the Elect. If you apply that to all men, Jesus could never come back, because He would have to wait for all men to be saved. Since a huge number of men have already died in their sins, even at that time, then it is obvious that either God isn't very good at getting His Way and fulfilling His desire, or you're not understanding what Peter is saying. I think it's safe to say that in your case, it is the latter.

i need to learn context eh?

The scripture says it is NOT the Father's will that ANY man perish but that ALL men come to repentence...

you believe everything except that its not the Fathers will ANY man perish... o yeah, and you dont believe He wishes for ALL men to be saved... am i reading you right?

Again, a baseless charge, which only tends to offend and to cause strife. I don't think you'll find anyone here saying that, certainly not the Calvinists. That charge is coming from the anti-Calvinists, due to their lack of knowledge of Calvinism, and their desire to "defeat" it by any means, even lying about it.

No no no again no
Calvinism teaches that God picks those who he will save and those predestined for hell... which means it CANNOT agree that it is the Fathers will ALL men repent... just the few you say He chose

The Blood of Christ is certainly valuable enough to save every man woman and child who ever lived, are living, or will live, but let's look at reality here. ONLY those whom God has chosen will be saved. You may not like that, but that's the way it is. Many, many people have died in their sins, without ever having had the opportunity to be saved. That's a reality that you apparently don't want to contemplate. If it were God's Will that they be saved, don't you think that He could and would have made salvation truly available to them? Since salvation is through Christ, there is no other way than him to be saved. Natural Revelation is not saving revelation. Natural revelation is only enough to make man without excuse, and therefore guilty before God. Natural Revelation ( Romans 1 ) is enough to condemn man, but not enough to save him.

So your god so loved the few he sent Jesus so that only the few he called could be saved... wow... You should serve MY God... ya see He so loved the WORLD He gave His son so WHOSOEVER could be saved... Again you are saying it is God's express will that most people go to hell... you are completely disregarding scripture saying it is the Fathers express will EVERYONE was saved

That choice was given to the people of God (Israel) and not all mankind. God has not placed the choice between life and death before all men without exception.

Context is important, and context is your friend. Please learn how to incorporate it into your bible study.

Well it you dont believe 'all' means 'all', or 'any' means 'any', and you only believe half the bible, i will look for someone else to teach me context thank you very much

 

[nobdysfool]

Sorry you feel that way.

 

[John1and1]

well instead of feeling sorry i would prefer you answer my post lol

 

[nobdysfool]

Where is it written that I am obligated to answer your posts? You have already shown that you will reject out of hand anything I say, because I am a Calvinist. Why should I bother?

 

[John1and1]

i submit you cant answer my posts and hold to calvinism and a loving God at the same time... the challenge is there for you, take it or not

at any rate, you now have the answer to the title of this thread

 

[nobdysfool]

i submit you cant answer my posts and hold to calvinism and a loving God at the same time... the challenge is there for you, take it or not

I can answer the challenge, but I don't see any need to do so, if you're attitude doesn't change. There is that little parable about pearls. And there are several verses in Proverbs that apply here.

at any rate, you now have the answer to the title of this thread

Sorry, but you can see how long this thread is, and Calvinism has not been refuted, not even close. And in the process, the brother who started this thread is now a Calvinist. I think the answer to the OP is obvious: The Calvinist cannot be refuted. Many have tried, and failed, You're just the latest to hit the wall.

 

[John1and1]

I can answer the challenge, but I don't see any need to do so, if you're attitude doesn't change. There is that little parable about pearls. And there are several verses in Proverbs that apply here.



Sorry, but you can see how long this thread is, and Calvinism has not been refuted, not even close. And in the process, the brother who started this thread is now a Calvinist. I think the answer to the OP is obvious: The Calvinist cannot be refuted. Many have tried, and failed, You're just the latest to hit the wall.

i just refuted it and you have no answer lol... of course its refuted, you just think avoiding the questions makes it not so

 

[nobdysfool]

i just refuted it and you have no answer lol... of course its refuted, you just think avoiding the questions makes it not so

LOL! People believe what they want. I have no need to waste my time with the likes of you. You obviously know it all.

Have your delusion. It matters not to me. Just don't break your arm, patting yourself on the back.

Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself.

Pro 26:17-19 Whoever meddles in a quarrel not his own is like one who takes a passing dog by the ears. (18) Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death (19) is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, "I am only joking!"

Pro 6:16-19 There are six things that the LORD hates, seven that are an abomination to him: (17) haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, (18) a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, (19) a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Pro 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.

Pro 17:28 Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise; when he closes his lips, he is deemed intelligent.

 

[John1and1]

yes so now you believe only fools believe God... i see

so in other words to maintain a calvinist belief you must RUN N HIDE from the hard questions


Tell me something

Is God a cruel evil taunter?

If not, and if calvinism is true and we have no choice in salvation, how is forced love any worse than rape?

Also... did God mean it when He pleaded with Cain to repent and do good, or was He just taunting Cain... just kiddin because Cain never stood a chance to be saved and God was just rubbing it in His nose, lying to him?

 

[nobdysfool]

yes so now you believe only fools believe God... i see

Your lack of comprehension of basic English is astounding. I quote you the Word of God, and you spit on it.

so in other words to maintain a calvinist belief you must RUN N HIDE from the hard questions

That would be a wrong assumption on your part. Pearls....

Tell me something

Is God a cruel evil taunter?

No, of course not. I have never said such a thing, nor do I believe such a lie. But, you wrongly believe that I do, and falsely accuse me of such, with absolutely no proof, or a post of mine to prove such a lie. Do you practice divination, and purport to be able to determine the thoughts and intents of other peoples' hearts and minds? Sure looks as though you believe that you can. Divination is a sin. Repent.

If not, and if calvinism is true and we have no choice in salvation, how is forced love any worse than rape?

Non-sequitors seem to be your stock in trade as well. Making false accusations, and ascribing beliefs to others which they do not hold, and disavow, and then badger them mercilessly because they don't bow down and kiss your ring. You sir, are a fool.

Also... did God mean it when He pleaded with Cain to repent and do good, or was He just taunting Cain... just kiddin because Cain never stood a chance to be saved and God was just rubbing it in His nose, lying to him?

You show all the signs of a person who has no understanding. You delight in trying to come up with supposedly "unanswerable " verses and passages, and then taunt and insult because others are not foolish enough to take the bait.

Read my signature.

 

[John1and1]

well so far they HAVE been unanswerable... you dont even know if youre calvinist or not now... whats up with this?

you cant address questions scriptures points

If God is NOT a cruel taunter, WHY did He try to give Cain hope when He told him if he does good he will be accepted... or did God not mean that?

If ha could have chosen Good then God did not predestine Him to Hell... and if God predestines EVERY man to hell except for a few, how did He choose them and why wouldnt He draw the rest if He is a God of love?

 

[nobdysfool]

Read my signature.

 

[John1and1]

that signature doesnt answer the questions... just to refresh your memory the questions are right over your head in your last post