How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

[Reformationist]

heretic

n 1: a person who holds religious beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church [syn: misbeliever, religious outcast] 2: a person who holds unorthodox opinions in any field (not merely religion)

To call one's beliefs heretical, is call the person a heretic (by definition), because those are the beliefs that the person is going to teach.

How far back are we going here? I have a vague memory of discussing this but I don't feel like looking through 22 pages of posts to get back to where you're at. Can you help me out here?

Thanks

 

[unimportantbuthisnameis]

How far back are we going here? I have a vague memory of discussing this but I don't feel like looking through 22 pages of posts to get back to where you're at. Can you help me out here?

Thanks

Page 20 Post 198 has both sides of the issue.

 

[Reformationist]

Page 20 Post 198 has both sides of the issue.

Okay. So, let me see if I'm caught up. You're offended because I called your views heretical because, in doing so, I'm calling you a heretic?

Is that it?

 

[unimportantbuthisnameis]

Okay. So, let me see if I'm caught up. You're offended because I called your views heretical because, in doing so, I'm calling you a heretic?

Is that it?

yes

 

[Reformationist]

yes

Okay. What now? Are you waiting on an apology? If I have offended you I apologize. If you espouse heresy then don't be surprised that your view is called heresy. I'm not sure what else you could expect.

 

[unimportantbuthisnameis]

Okay. What now? Are you waiting on an apology? If I have offended you I apologize. If you espouse heresy then don't be surprised that your view is called heresy. I'm not sure what else you could expect.

Thanks for your apology, but more than that I am just trying to inform other Christians (as many of use many of us non-Calvinists are just trying to the commands and follow the example we see in the Bible)that it is very offensive to call their brothers heretics without fully understanding their view and by claiming that "your" view is the only one that is right (Refomatist, I understand that you personally have admitted to the possibilty and exsistence of error in your beliefs in other posts, although I do not claim to ubnderstand everything or be right about it). I also understand that it would be just as offensive to my Calvinist Christian brothers to label them as heretics, thus the reason I try not to, but I am prone to accidently do so occasionally and for that I myself apologize.

 

[Reformationist]

Thanks for your apology, but more than that I am just trying to inform other Christians that it is very offensive to call their brothers heretics without fully understanding their view and by claiming that "your" view is the only one that is right (Refomatist, I understand that you personally have admitted to the possibilty and exsistence of error in your beliefs in other posts, although I do not claim to ubnderstand everything or be right about it). I also understand that it would be just as offensive to my Calvinist Christian brothers to label them as heretics, thus the reason I try not to, but I am prone to accidently do so occasionally and for that I myself apologize.

Well, I applaud your spirit of brotherhood but, honestly, if I was believing or teaching heresy I would seriously want someone to point that out. Of course I'd also like to know why they believe that.

Anyway, thanks for the godly spirit in which you offer your own apology.

God bless

 

[berea1]

Hey listen I've done so much study on this and you can't just look at the new testament on this subject, check out how Abraham was (Chosen) and God would make him a Nation. and i know how John 3:16 says God so loved the world, but who reads John 17 to hear Christ pray not for this world but for the world His Father gave him. Or the deep sleep God put Abraham into and showed him the furnace between the 2 offerings god was the Furnace and he put Abraham into the sleep to show him he has nothing to do with his salvation. And also if God loves the world why would he say in Matthew to depart from me for I (never) loved you. We were chosen. Yes I know ti says for who so ever will, but who will unless God draws us and the all powerful God I worship did not send His Son to dye on a gamble. When the all powerful calls you will come. Romans ch.11:29 the gifts of God are irrevocable. Besides with Abraham and the covenant it was a one sided promise it had nothing to do with any thing Abraham had to do. grace and faith are both gifts check on it and if our faith saves us it had to be given to us before we ever accepted it.

Hi Brightlights,

"Even though I presently cringe at the idea of election -- how can it be refuted after reading Romans 9?"

Easy, you take Paul's words at face value, knowing that he was writing from his own knowledge and understanding, and not writing the words of Jesus. If such were the case (Calvinism) then Jesus's time here was a waste, because everyone was already chosen. Jesus spoke to all, included all, told EVERYONE how to find the divine within. With election there is no choosing, for your choice has already been made.

 

[nobdysfool]

228 posts, and apparently Calvinism still hasn't been refuted....not that I was worried or anything....

Question: How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

Answer: You can't refute it. You can deny it, but you can't refute it.

 

[Rick Otto]

Ok. So justice is defined herein:

God creates one man to suffer eternally and another man to live forever with God.

This is, of course, regardless of the man's will -- because God has willed it for him.

I'm sorry, but I cannot see that as justice. Justice means that people get what they deserve, and if someone rebels against God unwillingly then that man does not deserve the punishment to rebellion.

>>>>>It is with the will that man rebels. It is his natural-born state. So "unwilling rebelious" is an oxymoron. Justice isn't at all about fairness. It is about jurisdiction. God doesn't have to be fair. We have no right or grounds to claim we deserve anything.
...............................................................................................................................................................................

I think that either we are all misinterpreting this passage, or that Paul was wrong *gasp*. What about Romans 2? Paul explains that those who live without the law are judged aside from the law. If these said people were pre-destined then why are they judged? Why is anyone judged for God's actions?
>>>>>>No one is judged for God's actions.
Paul voiced your query thus:"Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" - basicaly the same question.
...............................................................................................................................................................................
What about this passage?
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9)
>>>>>>>>>>>>It is written to & directed at believers, not everyone.....................................................................
Or this one?
5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
(Luke 13:5 implies that one has a choice in the matter -- as do countless other passages)
>>>>>>>Predestination does not eliminate choice. It predestines it..........................................................................
John 3:16 anyone?
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[ 3:16 Or his only begotten Son] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(does this not imply that we have a choice?)
>>>>>>>Yes, but it does not refute that that choice is predestined..............................................................................
Why are they perishing?
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
(2 Thes 2:10 -- because they refuse. Not because God refuses)
>>>>>>>God predestined their refusal........................................................................................................................

And again:
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
>>>>>>>>It is written to & directed at believers, not everyone..................................................................................
Either we are misinterpreting Paul in Romans 9, these passages are wrong, or Paul is wrong in Romans 9.

>>>>Predestined choices are still choices.............................................................................................................

 

[Ben johnson]

Calvinism is fully refuted. I'm very close to finishing my text, and submitting it for publication. I confess I didn't realize the argument against Universalism was so involved.

I included "Universalism" in my text on OSAS, because the same argument that defeats Calvinism, also defeats Universalism.

Calvinism claims "God elected SOME, and those whom He elected will be saved". Universalism claims "God elected ALL, and those whom He elected will be saved".

...and I've proven that God elects no one. He shows no partiality, but whoever fears Him and does right, He welcomes. Without faith it is impossible to please God; but whoever COMES to God must believe He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. (Acts10:34-35, Heb11:6)

One of the "smoking-guns" cited in the text (which is very long and comprehensive, fully addressing Romans9), is the passage of 1Cor9:24-27. Paul says "run so as to win". In saying "they race for a perishable wreath, but you for an imperishable", there is no way he means anything but "eternal life".

Then Paul writes the "clincher": "But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest after I have preached to others, I myself be disqualified".

Disqualified. "Adokimos", unapproved. Rejected as a coin is rejected if it no longer bears the image impressed upon it.

Connect this directly to 2Cor13:5: "Examine yourselves, test yourselves to see if you are in the faith. Do you not realize that Christ is in you, unless you FAIL the test?"

"Fail-the-test", "adokimos", disqualified/unapproved.

Here is Paul admonishing us to "run the race so as to win the IMPERISHABLE WREATH", and also warning us to "examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith, to see if Christ is in us". And BOTH warnings carry the consequence of being found "disqualified".

There is no way to change "disqualified", into "still saved".
There is no way to assert "disqualified is not a real possibility".


That is one of three "smoking guns" I've cited in the text. And every verse that's been posted in defense of Calvinism/Reformed-Theology, has been listed and addressed; Rom9:11-21, Rom8:28-29, Eph1:1-4, etcetera. All of them.



....but, as emphatic as this post is, it seems appropriate to say here, what I also say in the text. Those who hold to Calvinism, are my saved Christian brothers and sisters.

The text is not written to cause trouble; it is written to expose the truth of Scripture. To mature and strengthen believers.

And the real purpose of the text I wrote, is to promote the essence of salvation, and is to love each other and encourage each other in Christ.


The cover of the book will have several "taglines" --- including, "This is the end of Calvinism. It is the end of Universalism. It is the end of the Pre-Trib Rapture view."

Universalism aside, each of us can disagree on Calvinism, AND (or?) on Pre-Trib-Rapture timing, but still expect to walk together in the clouds when Jesus returns and raptures us into His presence.

If we agree on the "essence of salvation", which is "CHRIST IN YOU" (directly related to what Paul said in 1Cor9:24-27, and 2Cor13:5), then refutation of Calvinism, or Responsible Grace, and refutation of any given "rapture-timing", is irrelevant.

Our focus --- is to serve Christ. To LOVE each other, to teach His Gospel to a lost and dying world. To grow close to Him, so that the world will see Him in us, and will want what we have.

Jesus is coming back, and soon.
When He returns, Calvinism will not matter. Responsible Grace will not matter.

Rapture timing will not matter.

For we shall be with Him, physically; as we have already been with Him in our spirits!

"Forever" has already begun, in our hearts, with Him. "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul; and you shall love your neighbor as (presumed) you regard yourself."

You are my brothers, and sisters; Calvinist, or not.

...with all my heart and soul, I love you.

...and I cherish and eagerly anticipate the fellowship we will share as Christ's reign begins.


If you are not yet part of that, if Jesus is not alive in your heart, why are you waiting?

Join us!

 

[nobdysfool]

One thing I'll say for you, Ben, you're consistent.

Consistently wrong, but consistent....

 

[Ben johnson]

NBF --- I love ya', bro'.

 

[cygnusx1]

228 posts, and apparently Calvinism still hasn't been refuted....not that I was worried or anything....

Question: How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

Answer: You can't refute it. You can deny it, but you can't refute it.

bro!!!!!!

gotta laugh at those quick to judge what they don't understand.

 

[Ben johnson]

Hi, Cygnus --- love ya' too.

gotta laugh at those quick to judge what they don't understand.

I understand it fine. Would really enjoy hearing your understanding of 1Cor9:24-27, and 2Cor13:5 (as cited above).

 

[DanJudge]

Well you might as well forget that "doctrine" because you don't know who God has "chosen" anyway, so it's pointless to speculate or make comment on any individual. It's between them and God.

ps Don't quote me and expect me to reply because that's all I have to say about it, myself.

Mystikiwi (Senior Member ?)
Ben johnson

(Legend ?)
Brothers, Sisters, To All Who Are Searching For The True Gospel, That Jesus Taught --- Class --- Not Religion Or Race.

James 2:5-7 The Poor Are Chosen, They Are The Elect...........Period.

Awake, O sleeper, and rise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light!

The Scripture says, “Hasn’t God chosen the poor people out of the world, those being rich in faith and so heirs of the Kingdom that He has promised for the ones who love Him? But you have despised the poor people! Don’t the rich oppress you? And they drag you into the courts. Don’t they blaspheme the good Name that is called on you?” (James 2:5-7).

JAMES 5:1-6​

1 On your way now, rich ones --- weep, howling, for your miseries that are coming!
2 Your riches are deteriorated and your garments are moth-eaten;
3 Your gold and silver are corroded and their poison shall be a witness against you and shall consume your flesh like fire --- that is what you have treasured up --- in the last days.
4 Behold, the pay due to the workers who have reaped your lands, which has been retained by you, calls out; and the cries of the harvesters have entered into the ears of the Lord of hosts.
5 You have lived in luxury and self-indulgence on the earth; you have pampered yourselves in the day of slaughter;
6 You have condemned, you have murdered, the righteous people when they weren’t even opposing you.

LUKE 1:51-53​

51 “He shall perform might with his arm; He shall scatter those who are arrogant in the thoughts of their hearts;
52 “He shall drag the mighty down from the thrones and shall raise up the lowly;
53 “He shall fill the hungry with good things, but the rich shall He send away empty.”

PSALM 149:5-9​

5 Let the saints rejoice in glory; let them sing even upon their beds.
6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth and a two-edged sword in their hand
7 To execute vengeance among the nations, chastisements among the peoples ---
8 Even to bind their kings with chains and their honorable ones with bands of iron
9 To execute upon them the judgment written. This is an honor for all his saints. Praise the LORD


PSALM 73
A psalm of Asaph


1 Surly God is good to Israel, even to those who are of a pure of heart.
2 As for me, my feet almost stumbled, my steps came close to slipping;
3 For I was envious of the arrogant, seeing the prosperity of the wicked.
4 For their strength is so firm that there are no sufferings connected even with their death.
5 They have no troubles like other men; nor are they plagued like other men.
6 Therefore pride gives them the most erect of postures; violence covers them like a garment.
7 They are so obese that their eyes protrude! They have more than the heart could imagine.
8 They have degenerated and, as they speak with evil intent of oppression, so do they speak against Him who dwells on high.
9 Yes, just as they direct their mouths against Heaven, so do their tongues go about through the earth.
10 Therefore His people have retrogressed to this condition; and a full cup of waters of affliction has been poured out for them.
11 And they say, “However does God know? And could One so high know?”
12 Behold, these are the wicked: even those who prosper in the world, having attained to wealth.
13 Certainly it was in vain that I cleansed my heart and washed my hands in innocence!
14 For I notice that I have been plagued all day long, and that my chastisement has been renewed every
morning.!
15 If I had said, “I will speak in this vein,” behold, I would have been acting treacherously against the generations of Your children.
16 When I even thought about how one might understand this, it seemed a wearisome matter to me ---
17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then I understood their end.

18 Surely You have set them in slippery places; You throw them down to destruction.
19 How are they destroyed as in a moment! They are utterly consumed by terrors.
20 Like any dream when one awakes, so, O Lord, when You awake, You will despise their image (Rich).
21 For my heart was embittered, and there was a sharp sensation in my kidneys;
22 For I was so brutish and ignorant, I was like a beast before You;
23 Yet I am continually with You: You have grasped me by my right hand.
24 You will guide me with Your counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Who do I have in Heaven other than You? And there is no one that I have any desire to serve along with You on earth.
26 Even though my flesh and my heart will be consumed, God will be as an impregnable position for my heart, and He will be my portion forever.
27 For behold, those who are far from You will perish; You destroy all those who turn away from You.
28 But as for me, it is good for me to draw near to God; I have placed my trust in the Lord GOD, that I might declare all Your messages.




Peace be with You All
DanJudge 05/24/07

 

[moonbeam]

If we agree on the "essence of salvation", which is "CHRIST IN YOU" (directly related to what Paul said in 1Cor9:24-27, and 2Cor13:5), then refutation of Calvinism, or Responsible Grace, and refutation of any given "rapture-timing", is irrelevant.

Ben...i'm sure we all agree, with you, that Christ is the essence of salvation...does this mean your text won't be printed?....it being irrelevant.

...with all my heart and soul, I love you.

Ben...i get goose bumps all over when you talk like that ... and i want you to know that i love you to..not only you, but my enemies also.

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben...i'm sure we all agree, with you, that Christ is the essence of salvation...does this mean your text won't be printed?....it being irrelevant.

Christ is the essence of grace. The essence of salvation is "Christ in you". It is far more than "belief", more than "doctrine" or "dogma" or "lifestyle" or "list of do's". I know fully that you and I agree on this; salvation is not what we know, but Who we know, and Who knows us. Salvation is an "indwelt fellowship of love, between Creator (Jesus) and creature (you and me)." Jesus bodily indwells the believers' heart, so too the Holy Spirit. This is what John meant by "he who HAS the Son has the life; he who has not the Son of God has not the life. I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW you have eternal life."

It is with great sadness to realize the majority of those who attend Christian churches, do not walk with Jesus, do not spend time with Him, do not really know Him. As a friend of mine said, "I believe in Jesus". I said, "It's great that you believe in Him; but do you really know Him?"

As we "drive down our roads of life", it is simply a question of "who is actually doing the driving". Are we driving, and Jesus but an advisor? Or do we agree with Paul: "I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me." (Gal2:20)

If my text accomplishes nothing in overturning Calvinism, or Pre-Trib-Rapture, it will still be a complete success if it causes people to draw close to Jesus with all that they are. As James says, "Submit yourselves therefore to God; resist the devil and he will flee from you; draw near to God, and He will draw near to you."

Ben...i get goose bumps all over when you talk like that ... and i want you to know that i love you to..not only you, but my enemies also.

I believe you, Moonbeam; and I am completely confident that you do not regard me anywhere close to an "enemy".

We are brothers in Christ, we serve the same Lord and Savior. We post here at Christian Forums for the same reason; both for fellowship and sharpening between believers, and to share Him to a lost and dying world.

...a world that is soon going to fall apart. And He will return and set all things right. Sooner than anyone thinks.

God bless you, Moonbeam. And may He use you mightily in His great harvest.

 

[cygnusx1]

Hi, Cygnus --- love ya' too.
I understand it fine. Would really enjoy hearing your understanding of 1Cor9:24-27, and 2Cor13:5 (as cited above).

hi ben , from 2 years reading your stuff I have to say in all honesty you don't understand it fine , remember , you think hyper-calvinism is RT ! but that is in the past and i debate very little with Arminians these days. I leave it in God's Sovereign hands.

 

[Ben johnson]

Hi, Dan. I'm not sure I followed your post. We can show that the phrase, "chosen before the foundation of the world" in Eph1, harmonizes with 2Thess2:13, "chosen from the beginning ....through faith" --- placing "faith" as causal to our chosenness rather than consequential.

What really defeats "predestinationism", is sequence. Faith comes first, before regeneration, before God's consideration. We can show that sequence in Heb11:6, in Titus3:5-6, in Eph1:13, in Acts10:43-46 and 11:17, and in every other Scriptural writing.