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How, then, is the Calvinist refuted? (2)

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frumanchu

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Absolutely. There is no avoiding Eph2:5-8; WHEN we were dead in sins God made us alive ...by grace through faith.

Gross manipulation of the text...you are cutting out all the phrases in between to make the verse say what you want it to say. But it simply doesn't say that.

That's correct; that's why Calvinists are forced to consider Lk8:13 people as "UNSAVED".

They received the word with JOY and believed --- but Calvinists assert "it was FALSE belief, they were only PROFESSING but not really saved in their HEARTS --- evidenced by their later FALLING to temptation/affliction/persecution.

Ben, you put forth a position that I don't think anybody could find even remotely credible: the notion that everyone who appears saved...who professes faith in Christ or shows some sort of emotional response to the Gospel...is WITHOUT QUESTION saved and cannot possibly be otherwise. Not only does Scripture directly refute such a notion (2 John 2:19, 2 Peter 2:22, Matt 23:27), but common sense and experience do also. The notion that everyone without exception who responds positively to the Gospel or claims to be a Christian is necessarily saved is nothing short of absurd. Yet it is this absurdity that you are apparently forced to embrace in your quest to "overturn Calvinism."

Therefore Calvinists can NEVER know if they are "truly-elect", or only "falsely-believing", until AFTER they prove that they are elect, by "not falling".

That is, WHEN they DIE.


A Calvinist cannot know he is "truly elect", until the moment he dies. See the problem?

Once again this logically fallacious argument.

Ben, it is RESPONSIBLE GRACE believers who have NO ASSURANCE AT ALL of your salvation because even if you are presently saved you have no way of knowing that you will still believe a month from now...let alone at the end of your life.

Both you and the Calvinists believe that one can have assurance of their present salvation. However given that it is only the Calvinist who has assurance that IF they are presently saved then they will certainly be fully and finally saved. YOU DO NOT HAVE THAT ASSURANCE.
 
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frumanchu

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In John 6:67-70 --- many of the disciples were leaving. Jesus turned to the twelve, and said:

Jesus: "YOU aren't going to leave TOO, are you?" ("me" construct, expecting answer of "no")
Peter: "Of course not; we know You're the Messiah."
Jesus: "Did I not choose all twelve of you, and one is a devil?"


Can that conversation be understood in any way but "any one of you CAN leave, just like one of you IS leaving"?

Yes. It can be understood (as I have already explained despite your ignoring it) as Jesus stating plainly that salvation doesn't depend simply on receiving what He says or even acknowledging it on an intellectual level. He is making it plain, as He did throughout that passage, that salvation is of the Lord.
 
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frumanchu

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How can you believe that?

Lk8:13 speaks of those who "received the word (Gospel!) with JOY, and BELIEVED". But by their subsequent FALLING (to temptation/affliction/persecution), they proved they were not really elect.

If those people exhibitted "joyful belief", but their FALLING proved they were "not elect", then how can any Calvinist know he is "truly elect" (and will persevere until death), or only FALSELY (joyfully) believing which WILL be evidence by their FALLING at some time before they die?

I will appreciate if you would explain that to me.

:)


IT'S ALREADY BEEN EXPLAINED TO YOU!! Why do you persist in posturing as though we never answer your questions when we have literally DOZENS of times, Ben?

If you answer no other question of mine, I'd appreciate if you would answer that one.
 
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Ben johnson

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Behe'sBoy said:
The same sort of question could be asked of the one holds to "responsible grace." How can anyne know they are ever going to be saved if they hold to it? "Responsibility" implies "works."
Not at all; it's simply a matter of applying Jude1:21 --- "keeping ourselves in the love of God". In other words, abiding in Jesus. 1Jn2:26-28 is a very real warning against real deceivers, admonishing us TO abide.
In other words if you can't maintain a certain level of righteousness - then you loose your salvation.
That's a "strawman", and you know it; Responsible grace never asserts that "we have to maintain righteousness"; for JESUS is our righteousness, and HE is righteous IN us.

If we "abide in Christ", then HE abides in us (1Jn4:16), and we walk in righteousness and in forgiveness. 1Jn1:7 is very clear --- "If we WALK..."
Given that all of man's righteousness is "filthy rags" in God's sight - no one under the tenet of "responsible grace" can ever really know if he is meeting God's standard.
Nonsense. Per 1Jn5:11-13, we can know.
So you have virtually the same delimna posed in the question above to the Calvinist.
No, I don't --- I accept Paul's words, 2Tim1:12-14: I KNOW whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to guard that which I have entrusted to Him. Now, guard, by the Holy Spirit that indwells you, the treasure entrusted to you."

The "treasure entrusted to us", is "eternal life".
I would answer that no one can really know the condition of another's heart. The elect will know if he/she is his/her Lord's or not. The Lord will certainly know it.
Do you think that those in Luke8:13, didn't think they WERE saved? They "received the Gospel with joy, and believed".

Both groups (thirteeners, and fifteeners), thought they were saved --- at first.
All everyone else has to go by - is a person's fruit.
Do you think Jesus meant it when He said, "You will know they by their fruit"???
But this is a good question - and the very reason why we must consistantly look to our own hearts - and why we must constantly check the truth and sincerity of our faith.
Why? Isn't God sovereign enough?

Think about what you said; if all is GOD'S choice, then we have to check nothing. For GOD will do the electing, the regenerating, and (through whatever means He desires) the preserving.

What you said reflects Peter's words in 2:1:5-10 ("be all the more diligent about your calling and election; as long as these fruits are yours, ...the gates of Heaven will BE ...provided to you.") --- but it does not reflect "sovereign predestination".

:)
 
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Ben johnson

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Vekarppe said:
Read the whole passage (2:1-10), and you will see the real picture.
I see the real picture; we were dead in sins, and DURING that time, we were made-alive THROUGH faith.

No "predestination", all of "individual conscious choice".

Which part do you think opposes that idea?
 
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Ben johnson

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That Calvinists recognize those in Lk8:13 "receive the word with joy and BELIEVE", and that Calvinists then qualify those people's "belief" by perceiving it was FALSE belief, only PROFESSING but not really saved --- places themselves (Calvinists) in the position of never knowing WHICH belief is "saved", and which is only "falsely, though joyfully, professing".

And there is no way for them to know that, themselves.

If two groups somewhere can begin with "joyful belief", and only steadfastness and perseverance proves WHICH group is "elect/predestined/really-saved", then it's only death that exposes which is (uhm, was) which.

How does a Calvinist know he has "real" faith, rather than "false/only-professing" faith? Those in Lk8:13, surely thought they were saved.


...when they were "joyfully believing"...
 
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IamAdopted

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1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
1Jn 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.
1Jn 2:21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
 
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Philothei

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1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

and how excatly this proves "proves" election??? acutally it proves the oposite.... that some chistians from the "group" of followers 'decided' not to be christians any more and the 'went out' .... ok no problem here... some Christians out of free choice left the group and became ....pagans again.... This verse proves absolutely nothing about 'election'...sorry

Also God forknows those who will be saved... that does not mean he predestines them... Man still has free will. As God is omnipotent he has that capability to know of future events that does not mean anything more.




1Jn 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.

again yes we have a anointing from God as he blesses us for we confess Him as our God. Through Christ we have the annointing as a church. all of us believers in Christ do.
1Jn 2:21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth.

now that verse as combined witht he rest verifies the above that is again supports the faithful in their quest for the true faith.

Again reading from 1Jn 2.18-2.29 my impresion is that it talks about the Truth: Jesus is God... and that is the point of that passage sorry no "predestination" or "election" here...


God bless,
Philothei:crosseo:
 
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Ben johnson

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IamAdopted said:
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
1Jn 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.
1Jn 2:21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
Hi, "Adopted".

Have you ever read 1Jn2:26-28?
"These things I have written to you, concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as the anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and not a lie, and just as it has taught you, abide in Him. Now, little children, ABIDE in Him, SO THAT when He appears we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming."

Is "abiding" presented as "something taken for granted"?
The deceivers are trying to get us NOT to abide, aren't they?
If we do NOT abide, then we shrink-in-shame at His coming; is that shamed position, saved?

Look now at 2Jn1:7-9. The context is to the "chosen lady and her children" --- clearly, saved (vs1). Verse 7 warns against deceivers, exactly as 1:2:26 did.

"Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. WATCH YOURSELVES, that you do not lose what was wrought, but that you receive full reward. Anyone who GOES TOO FAR (goes out from us!) and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, has not God. But he who abides, has the Father and the Son."

Here is a warning not to "go too far", or "go on ahead", which is "go out from us". The warning is TO saved-believers, isn't it? This then is the refutation to the idea of "whoever was never REALLY a believer, will go out from us". In 1:2:19, they were likely never saved; but in 2:1:9, they were.

Do you accept this?

:)
 
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Ben johnson

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Vekarppe said:
Ben, "through faith" does not mean "because of faith" or "through believing."
"Saving-faith", is "saving-belief". Look at how Rom11:21-23 speaks of "belief".

So "through faith", means "through believing".

But the biggest point of Eph2:5-8, is that "made-alive", was through faith.

Calvinism asserts "we were made alive (born again) by God's soveriegn choice, and THEN we believe (have faith)".

Paul says "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation."


Look again at what Jesus said to Thomas, and how it connects to the theme of salvation:

John6:40 "This is the will of God, that all who see Jesus and believe may be saved."

John20:29 "You believe BECAUSE you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen, and yet believe.


ANd the converse of this, plays nicely in what Jesus said to Bethsaida, Capernaum, and Chorazin: "If Tyre and Sidon had seen what YOU have seen, they would have believed. If the miracles I have done here had been done in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. I tell you it will go better for THEM in the Final Judgment, than for YOU!"

There is nothing of "sovereign predestined faith/belief" in any of that, is there?

:)
 
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Rick Otto

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Hey Ben!
I found this letter on Hebrews 6, you're gonna get a kick out of:
Hello Lenny,
I'm a believer and I too believe in eternal security (Eph. 1:13-14 seems to be a biggie for this). However, I must admit the verses that brought up by those who believe you can lose your salvation (e.g. Heb 6:5-6) seem difficult to understand. You mentioned that "careful study can lead to conclusions from these verses that does not necessitate the idea of losing your salvation." Would you mind expounding on these other conclusions? I would greatly appreciate it.
Thank you,
Julie

Hi Julie,
I must say that Hebrews chapter 6 is one of the most hotly contested scriptures in the Bible! (But, I did say that one could examine them and come away with a perspective other than someone losing salvation, so I guess I'd better not duck your question.) Let's review the passage:
"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been partakers of the Holy Spirit, and having tasted of the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame."
Hebrews 6:4-6.
We must first see who is being discussed in the above verse, and what their true spiritual condition is in order to gain understanding into what the writer is conveying. I will, for the sake of argument, assume we're talking about the salvation of the subject being described. If you believe the above verse addresses believers who are backslidden, then we have a problem because the verse says, "It is impossible to renew them to repentance." Thus, if you did believe and fell away from the faith (became an apostate), the verse would imply that you've committed an unpardonable sin. This just doesn't line up with scripture. It also doesn't line up with Armenian teaching of being restored again to the Lord's salvation.
Let's look at it the way some Calvinists have interpreted Hebrews. If we take the passage to mean those who mearly profess to be Christians, but have not given their whole lives to Him (ref. Matt. 7:21-23), then we still have a problem because the act of pretending to be saved becomes the sin that cannot be forgiven ("impossible"), and we know there is no sin too great that God cannot forgive the sinner. Either way, it puts us in a tough spot by saying "there's no way God can forgive him!" We know that "the Lord's hand is not so short that it cannot save" (Isaiah 59:1) so if we took the position of the above passage referring to salvation, either way we are faced with a contradiction.

So, what's left? In Hebrews 6:4, the writer's subjects are defined for us. We know they've "once been enlightened". That could be translated "once and for all" from the Greek. That sounds pretty definite. They have "tasted of the heavenly gift", which does not mean they just nibbled at it. The term "tasted" holds a different connotation for us in the English than in the Greek. The same writer used the same word earlier in the book when he said Jesus "tasted death for every man"(Heb 2:9). That also is a pretty complete experience. Jesus didn't just nibble on death, He fully died! They also "tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come." 1 Peter 2:3 imputes this tasting to those who obtain salvation. Lastly, they "have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit". Romans 8:9 makes a pretty convincing argument that anyone who has the Spirit indwelling them is in the body of Christ. All these references allude to a person who is truly saved, not one who is only religious or pretending to have a relationship with the Lord.

So, if the passage is addressing saved people, we must find out what is meant by "impossible to renew them again to repentance". Let's look at that word repentance. Notice that it does not say it is impossible to renew them again to salvation. In fact, the Greek word for "fallen away" is parapipto which can literally be translated "to stumble or fall along side". It is not apstosia from which we get the idea of apostasy or apostate. So, what kind of repentance do we mean, and what are we falling away from?
In verse 9, the writer mentions that he is "convinced of better things of you, and things that accompany salvation." The thing that accompanies salvation is a believer's fruit. By fruit, I mean the evidences that he is a follower of Christ. This is his witness to the world. In fact, in verses 7 and 8, the writer talks about the ground bearing fruit, and it being judged if it is without fruit. A parallel chapter is found in 1 Cor 3:13-16. The person is a believer, for Paul in 1 Cor.3:15 says the man shall be saved, but his opportunity for witness and his ability to impact other people (not to mention the service he could render for Christ) will be forever lost. The repentance that the writer to Hebrews speaks of is a "repentance from dead works" mentioned in verse one of the same chapter. I believe the verse applies to more than just Jewish legalism. In Revelation Chapter 2, Jesus warns the church at Ephesus that even though their deeds are good, their work is without love, and as a consequence, they will lose their lampstand, i.e., their witness (ref. Matt 5:14-16).
The entire chapter of Hebrews 6 is devoted to the Hebrew believers showing their faith through their works. The writer emphasizes the believers' security in their salvation when he makes statements like "the full assurance of hope until the end (vs. 11)"; "The unchangeablenss of His purpose (vs. 17)"; and "this hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast(vs. 19)".
This is a very difficult portion of scripture, and it can be confusing trying to explain it in such a brief letter (many scholars still argue as to its exact meaning; experts much more qualified than I), but I hope I have shown you that it doesn't HAVE to be taken as to mean someone can lose their salvation or never again come to a saving faith in Christ. Please let me know if I can clear up any point that may have been vague.
May God bless you.
 
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vekarppe

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So "through faith", means "through believing".


2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

As we can notice, salvation is not ex humoon, "of yourselves," or as HCSB puts it, "from yourselves." Its origin is not in man. So, "faith" (noun) cannot mean "believing;" believing is someting we do. Faith is mentioned here as the mode or channel by which salvation is accepted.
 
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cygnusx1

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Gross manipulation of the text...you are cutting out all the phrases in between to make the verse say what you want it to say. But it simply doesn't say that.

bingo !!!

see what is possible if ben misses out the center of a Biblical sentence , no one will ever know ;) :)
 
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Ben johnson

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Vekarppe said:
2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

As we can notice, salvation is not ex humoon, "of yourselves," or as HCSB puts it, "from yourselves." Its origin is not in man.
I agree --- salvation is NOTHING of us, but ALL of Jesus. He paid the price, sufficiently and completely from the Cross.

But please consider how John expresses it in 1:12-13. In verse 13, he says "...who were begotten, not of Human blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of men, but of God." This is saying "the begottenness is nothing of man nor of man's will; it's all of God."

Verse 12, "To as many as RECEIVED Christ, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."

The right to BECOME His children, "become begotten", is by believing/receiving Jesus.

Will you consider that the begottenness is all of God and nothing of us, but receiving His begottenness is by our faith?
So, "faith" (noun) cannot mean "believing;" believing is something we do. Faith is mentioned here as the mode or channel by which salvation is accepted.
There is no idealogical difference between "saving-faith", and "saving-belief".

Please tell my your opinion on Matt7:21-24; when Jesus says "he who hears My words and ACTS on them", is there any way He could not mean, "believe"?

:)
 
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Ben johnson

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Cygnus said:
see what is possible if ben misses out the center of a Biblical sentence , no one will ever know
Verse 5 says "WHEN we were dead in sins, God made us alive in Christ (by grace have you been saved)".

Verse 8 says "For by grace through faith have you been saved".

Unless you see TWO "savings-by-grace", the second one "through faith", then the one event, is "by grace", and then it's described again but expanded to include "through faith".

There is no other credible understanding...
 
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Ben johnson

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RickOtto said:
Hi! :wave:
I found this letter on Hebrews 6, you're gonna get a kick out of:
Looks like you went to alotta trouble. I appreciate you.
Hello Lenny,
I'm a believer and I too believe in eternal security (Eph. 1:13-14 seems to be a biggie for this). However, I must admit the verses that brought up by those who believe you can lose your salvation (e.g. Heb 6:5-6) seem difficult to understand. You mentioned that "careful study can lead to conclusions from these verses that does not necessitate the idea of losing your salvation." Would you mind expounding on these other conclusions? I would greatly appreciate it.
Thank you,
Julie

Hi Julie,
I must say that Hebrews chapter 6 is one of the most hotly contested scriptures in the Bible!
(Heh heh heh --- not for me...) ;)
(But, I did say that one could examine them and come away with a perspective other than someone losing salvation, so I guess I'd better not duck your question.) Let's review the passage:
"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been partakers of the Holy Spirit, and having tasted of the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame."
Hebrews 6:4-6.
We must first see who is being discussed in the above verse, and what their true spiritual condition is in order to gain understanding into what the writer is conveying. I will, for the sake of argument, assume we're talking about the salvation of the subject being described. If you believe the above verse addresses believers who are backslidden, then we have a problem because the verse says, "It is impossible to renew them to repentance." Thus, if you did believe and fell away from the faith (became an apostate), the verse would imply that you've committed an unpardonable sin. This just doesn't line up with scripture. It also doesn't line up with Armenian teaching of being restored again to the Lord's salvation.
Let's look at it the way some Calvinists have interpreted Hebrews. If we take the passage to mean those who mearly profess to be Christians, but have not given their whole lives to Him (ref. Matt. 7:21-23), then we still have a problem because the act of pretending to be saved becomes the sin that cannot be forgiven ("impossible"), and we know there is no sin too great that God cannot forgive the sinner. Either way, it puts us in a tough spot by saying "there's no way God can forgive him!" We know that "the Lord's hand is not so short that it cannot save" (Isaiah 59:1) so if we took the position of the above passage referring to salvation, either way we are faced with a contradiction.

So, what's left? In Hebrews 6:4, the writer's subjects are defined for us. We know they've "once been enlightened". That could be translated "once and for all" from the Greek. That sounds pretty definite. They have "tasted of the heavenly gift", which does not mean they just nibbled at it. The term "tasted" holds a different connotation for us in the English than in the Greek. The same writer used the same word earlier in the book when he said Jesus "tasted death for every man"(Heb 2:9). That also is a pretty complete experience. Jesus didn't just nibble on death, He fully died!
Bravo! Nicely done! (Sorry, didn't' mean to interrupt...)
They also "tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come." 1 Peter 2:3 imputes this tasting to those who obtain salvation. Lastly, they "have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit". Romans 8:9 makes a pretty convincing argument that anyone who has the Spirit indwelling them is in the body of Christ. All these references allude to a person who is truly saved, not one who is only religious or pretending to have a relationship with the Lord.

So, if the passage is addressing saved people, we must find out what is meant by "impossible to renew them again to repentance". Let's look at that word repentance. Notice that it does not say it is impossible to renew them again to salvation. In fact, the Greek word for "fallen away" is parapipto which can literally be translated "to stumble or fall along side". It is not apstosia from which we get the idea of apostasy or apostate. So, what kind of repentance do we mean, and what are we falling away from?
In verse 9, the writer mentions that he is "convinced of better things of you, and things that accompany salvation." The thing that accompanies salvation is a believer's fruit. By fruit, I mean the evidences that he is a follower of Christ.
And the idea of "fruit", is pretty "black and white". Jesus said in Matt7, "No good tree can bear bad fruit, no bad tree can bear good; so you will know them by their fruit."
This is his witness to the world. In fact, in verses 7 and 8, the writer talks about the ground bearing fruit, and it being judged if it is without fruit.
Not just "judged", but cursed and burned. Look at how that reflects Heb10:26 --- if WE continue sinning willfully after having received KNOWLEDGE (Greek "epignosis", full knowledge) of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire that consumes the adversaries."
A parallel chapter is found in 1 Cor 3:13-16. The person is a believer, for Paul in 1 Cor.3:15 says the man shall be saved, but his opportunity for witness and his ability to impact other people (not to mention the service he could render for Christ) will be forever lost. The repentance that the writer to Hebrews speaks of is a "repentance from dead works" mentioned in verse one of the same chapter. I believe the verse applies to more than just Jewish legalism. In Revelation Chapter 2, Jesus warns the church at Ephesus that even though their deeds are good, their work is without love, and as a consequence, they will lose their lampstand, i.e., their witness (ref. Matt 5:14-16).
The entire chapter of Hebrews 6 is devoted to the Hebrew believers showing their faith through their works. The writer emphasizes the believers' security in their salvation when he makes statements like "the full assurance of hope until the end (vs. 11)"; "The unchangeablenss of His purpose (vs. 17)"; and "this hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast(vs. 19)".
This is a very difficult portion of scripture...
No it's not...
and it can be confusing trying to explain it in such a brief letter (many scholars still argue as to its exact meaning; experts much more qualified than I), but I hope I have shown you that it doesn't HAVE to be taken as to mean someone can lose their salvation or never again come to a saving faith in Christ. Please let me know if I can clear up any point that may have been vague.
May God bless you.
He dances around, and never reaches the point.

CAN we fall from repentance but still be saved? Certainly not.

Hebrews' writer is clearly presenting those who WERE saved (very nice dealing with concepts of "tasting" and "partners with the Holy Spirit"), and then he says "fall-ING away" (it's a fact), it's impossible to restore them to repentance...

Why?

King James says: "Seeing as..."
NIV says "SINCE..."
New American Standard says "Because"
NASV footnote says "WHILE!"

It is their crucifying Christ to themselves ANEW (by taking Him for granted, walking WILLFULLY in sin!), and holding Him to shame (seems to mean "regarding Him with contempt").

THAT is why it is "adunatos-impossible/unable/powerless/impotent".

See? It's not hard at all. It's only hard when we deny the reality of "fallible-salvation".

;)
 
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vekarppe

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But please consider how John expresses it in 1:12-13. In verse 13, he says "...who were begotten, not of Human blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of men, but of God." This is saying "the begottenness is nothing of man nor of man's will; it's all of God."

Verse 12, "To as many as RECEIVED Christ, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."

The right to BECOME His children, "become begotten", is by believing/receiving Jesus.

Were do we disagree?

Please tell my your opinion on Matt7:21-24; when Jesus says "he who hears My words and ACTS on them", is there any way He could not mean, "believe"?

I dont see your point, sorry.
 
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Ben johnson

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Vekarppe said:
Were do we disagree?
It's a question of sequence. Which comes first --- "begotten", or "belief"?

Verse 12 says that "begottenness" (right to BECOME children of God), is given to those who believe/receive Jesus. Calvinists think that verse 13 asserts "begottenness is fully God's CHOICE" --- but that's not what it says. The actual BIRTH is all of God, and nothing of man; but RECEIVING that birth (being given the right to BECOME His children), is by believing and receiving Jesus.

Believing and receiving Jesus, precedes becoming begotten. This opposes "Reformed Theology"...
Ben said:
Please tell me your opinion on Matt7:21-24; when Jesus says "he who hears My words and ACTS on them", is there any way He could not mean, "believe"?
I dont see your point, sorry.
Why would Jesus say "He who ACTS is wise, and he who does NOT act is foolish", if that action, is fully God's choice?

Makes no sense.

....but if "acting" (believing!) was a CHOICE, then His words make perfect sense...

All that Jesus said, conveys "choice". In John6:40, the WILL (thelema-desire!) of God is that all who see Jesus AND BELIEVE may be saved." In John20:29, Jesus tells Thomas "you believe BECAUSE you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen and yet believe."

There is no way that there could be a difference between "seen-faith", and "better UNSEEN faith", if faith itself was a sovereign, predestined, gift.

It's a choice, Vekarppe. A conscious decision.

Love is a decision. "You shall LOVE the Lord your God, with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul, and all your strength." That's somethin' we have control over...

:)
 
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cygnusx1

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Verse 5 says "WHEN we were dead in sins, God made us alive in Christ (by grace have you been saved)".

Verse 8 says "For by grace through faith have you been saved".

Unless you see TWO "savings-by-grace", the second one "through faith", then the one event, is "by grace", and then it's described again but expanded to include "through faith".

There is no other credible understanding...

we are saved by grace through faith.
and
we are made alive even when we were dead , faith doesn't figure in our first resurrection unless someone shuffles the texts and manipulates what God said ....... that someone is you ben.
 
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