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How, then, is the Calvinist refuted? (2)

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nobdysfool

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We cannot have "rational, well-reasoned discussions"; and you know it. If you wish to believe it is my fault, that's ok with me.

It's not a matter of fault, Ben. It's a matter of owning up when you've been shown to be in error. You don't do so, and never have, that I have ever seen. As I've said before, no one is that good.

Ben said:
Time after time it's been demonstrated that it's best for me not to reply, whatever I might say.

Yes, lest your errors be exposed, and you endure having to admit you're wrong. Unfortunately for you, your lack of response does not obliterate the fact that you have been shown to be wrong, repeatedly. Your response (or lack of same) does not affect what has been shown.

Ben said:
So we'll agree to disagree, and you already know that I consider you my brother and friend.

Ben, I am serious when I say that if I ever get to Tulsa, I will buy you a steak dinner, and we will fellowship over that dinner. That is a completely separate thing from what we discuss here.

"Agreeing to disagree" is a principle of the Diaprax, which is a dangerous and insidious method of negotiation, in which the Truth is slowly but surely sacrificed on the altar of compromise and "can't we just all get along?" Getting along is not the end game of Theology, and Truth.
 
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Ben johnson

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NBF said:
Yes, lest your errors be exposed...
Hasn't happened; every "attempt" has been overturned, with Scripture...
and you endure having to admit you're wrong.
:sigh:
Unfortunately for you, your lack of response does not obliterate the fact that you have been shown to be wrong, repeatedly. Your response (or lack of same) does not affect what has been shown.
Look at my posts in just the last day or two, here. Every last point has been responded, and the Calvinist points refuted.
"Agreeing to disagree" is a principle of the Diaprax, which is a dangerous and insidious method of negotiation...
It's dangerous only if it risks reprobation. If we agree on "salvation by grace through faith", that a man's heart is changed and he CANNOT continue in sin, if we agree that "salvation is an indwelt fellowship of love betwen Creator (Jesus) and creature (you and me), then we are both saved.
in which the Truth is slowly but surely sacrificed on the altar of compromise and "can't we just all get along?" Getting along is not the end game of Theology, and Truth.
Truth has been clearly demonstrated; God is sovereign, and men are responsible. Salvation is a gift of grace, received by men's faith.

Received, and walked in. Col2:6-8 alone, Rom11:21-23 alone, Col1:21-23 alone, 2Pet1:5-10 alone, Heb10:26-29 alone, and MANY more separate passages clearly speak of the "truly saved", who can become "unsaved". But they're NOT "alone", they're together, and all say the same thing.
 
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Ben johnson

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Cygnus said:
does ben use a translation or just any that he thinks agrees with him ???
Show me "errors because of translation".
Woody said:
Hozabout what the Bible says....

"By grace are you saved."
You change Paul's words, and eliminate "THROUGH GRACE"?
Period, end of story. It is not I believe (i.e. have faith) enough to be saved. It is not I will exercise my faith. It is not I will activate my faith. There is NO "I will" in salvation.
Yup, you do; Paul said, "With the HEART man BELIEVES" --- but your position says "God GIFTS faith to a man, through regeneration, BEFORE the man TURNS to God"!

Acts10:34-35 says "God is not partial, BUT whoever reveres/seeks-righteousness is WELCOMED by God!"

Your position says, "God CHOOSES some who do NOT revere/seek, and then monergistically REGENERATES them --- and THEN (irresistibly) they revere/seek"!

Hebrews11 says "Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who COMES to God must believe He IS, and that He rewards those who seek Him."

Your position says "God gifts faith to those He wants, and man's faith/coming/seeking is GOD'S decision!"
By grace are you saved and THAT not of yourself; it is a gift of God.
Woody, you can't even bring yourself to quote the verse as Paul wrote it --- "by grace THROUGH FAITH have you been saved." By viewing "faith" as a second dispensation of grace, you remove all reason for a "Final Judgment" --- because GOD decides who LIVES, and who (irresistibly, unavoidably) DIES.

...the worst thing is that Calvinists still view that position of God, as "just", and "honorable".
When the Lord bestowes grace for salvation on a man, he is saved. That is what the Bible says. That is what the Bible teaches. And that is why I am a Calvinist for only Calvinist affirm that salvation is by grace.
You have completely missed the entire perspective of "FAITH".

There is a reason that Paul said "from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith" in Rom1:17. And said that "if we are faithless and deny Him, He will deny us" --- and that set in opposition to "us reigning with Him" (2Tim2).

We can simply look up the word "blameless", and find SEVERAL places where it's charged to US! (Col1:23, 2Pet3:14, Jd1:20-24, Philip2:14-15).

How can "blamelessness" be our choice, if salvation is monergistic and faith is only gifted-grace?

Without faith it is impossible to please God, Woody; as A.T.Robertson said, "Grace is God's gift, faith is ours".

That fully reflects in what Paul said in 2Tim1, "God guards what we entrust, and WE guard what God entrusts".

It's a two-way street. That's why Paul warns us in 1Tim4:16, "WATCH yourselves, PERSEVERE; as you do you will SAVE YOURSELVES!"
 
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Ben johnson

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LJSGM said:
Romans 2
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
Exactly right; but by "re-defining" faith and repentance as a gift of grace, the Calvinist says "Well sure; but stubbornness, and good/bad deeds are only CONSEQUENTIAL to God's sovereign choice."

No amount of citation seems to convince Calvinists otherwise....
 
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Ben johnson

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Cygnus said:
Respecter of Persons

There is a subtle twisting of God's inspired words taking place in many modern versions in how they are rendering the phrase "respecteth not persons". This is so subtle, that I believe most Christians have not noticed it. The change in meaning produced by versions like the NKJV, NIV, and NASB unfortunately fits in with so much of modern, popular theology, that many would actually consider it to be an improvement over the KJB's reading. It fits the philosophy of the natural mind of man.
The meaning, is clear from the context. The word, "BUT", demonstrates that the SECOND phrase is the OPPOSITE of the first.

"NO RESPECTER", is opposed to "God RECEIVES those WHO revere/seek".

Therefore, "respecter/partial" is God if he receives those who do NOT revere/seek"!

Calvinism is the partiality that God is NOT.
 
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Ben johnson

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Woody said:
Yes, Ben, YOU need to reason it out. When you are in the flesh, you cannot do ANYTHING to please God, including "put to death the flesh," which would please God. The reason is simple: you cannot do anything to please God while in the flesh, including getting out of your fleshy state. The Scriptures state it, why don't you believe it?
The Scriptures state that unregenerate man, is called to salvation; and he CAN BELIEVE. Eph2 places "saving-belief" plainly during the time "WHEN we were dead in sins".

Regeneration, is by the received Spirit --- it's the only meaning "POURED", can have, in Titus3:5-6.

"Received", is by "belief".
No, Ben, because God already knows the end. Do you honestly think that God's mind is a white board that you can simply erase and rewrite however you will? Do you really think you are more powerful than God?
Why will you not consider that a Sovereign, all-powerful God, can choose to allow men to love Him, or not?

Why do you reject that the very NATURE of love, CANNOT decide who WILL love back?
Judas went just as it was written of him. Freely. God KNEW his end and there was nothing that Judas or anyone else could do to change what God already knew.

God's mind is not something you can simply rewrite.
Judas' end was prophesied, not decreed. Jesus' words in Jn6:67-70, are clear --- the REST of the Disciples can LEAVE, just as JUDAS.

Jesus said it, I believe it. With respect, do you?
Calvinism: The future is closed. God's knowledge is exhaustive and unchangeable.
Arminianism: The future is closed. God's knowledge is exhaustive and unchangeable.
Open Theism: The future is not closed. God's knowledge is not exhaustive. The future is written by man's free will.
Responsible-Grace: The future, exists; God's knowledge is perfect and complete. Men CHOOSE to serve God or not; God knows, but does not command the choice.


...you did know that the position I find in Scripture, is called "Responsible Grace", not "Open Theism", nor "Arminianism", or "Calvinism", didn't you?

:)
 
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Ben johnson

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BobL said:
If this thread is going to be a close, clear look at Calvinism, shouldn't we have some organization, some format where we take piece by piece for examination?
It always goes in circles; we refute a point or two, then the same points show up a dozen posts later as if never refuted.

At least we seem to have established that 1Cor2:14 is NOT "predestinary" (because the spiritual-knowledge of vs 14, is the same spiritual-knowledge of vs12, which is by the RECEIVED (belief!) Spirit.)

And no one is citing 2Cor4:3-4 as indicating that "depraved man cannot turn to God, because his eyes are veiled" (because 2Cor3:16 says "WHEN a man turns to God, his eye-veil is REMOVED!").
Maybe I'm being naive, especially since we're way over 1,000 posts here, but it would seem impotant for everybody to find some common ground to start with.
The "common ground" would be to prove that "saving-faith" is NOT "gifted" to us, by God; but fully charged to men. Rom1:17-20 is very clear; so is Rom10:9-10.
Maybe we could use the 5 point system, in order or out of order I don't care, come up with a list of proof texts that the Calvinists among us can agree upon as a primary list of supporting scriptures and then evaluate them in context. Then we could move on to the other 4 points?
I could do that, if they don't --- in the text I wrote, every "proof-verse" Calvinsts use, is listed (and discussed).

The discussions generally have Calvinists "throwing a Five-Way", then calling the point "refuted". The Five-Ways are:

1. Subjects were never REALLY saved in the FIRST place
2. Subjects didn't really FALL from salvation
3. Two groups --- one saved, one NEVER saved (professing) lurking AMONGST the saved
4. Hypothetical, advice ("effective means") to KEEP us saved
5. Dispensation --- applied to THEM back THEN but not to US TODAY
In defernce to Nobodysfool, we could even save perserverance of the saints for last, just to keep Ben off track. (haha)
:)

Ben responds to EVERY point, in the face of accusations of "burying under verses", and being accused of "Pelagianism/Open-Theism/Works-Based-Salvation" etcetera.

Scripture has overturned Calvinism, and continues to do so, on every point.

...no offense intended to my brothers and sisters.

:)
 
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Ben johnson

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NBF said:
Response does not equal refutation, Ben. You have responded, but you have not refuted.
Show me what has not ben refuted.

Is it "gifted-faith"? Eph2:8 does not assert it. Salvation-by-grace-THROUGH-FAITH happened WHEN we were dead in sins --- it's HOW we were made alive, not SEPARATE.

Is it, "cannot fall"? Heb4:11 in context with Heb3:6-18 defeats you. So does 1Tim4:16, and Col2:6-8.

The Col2 verse hasn't been answered, to my memory; because it can't.

I haven't refuted anything, it's true; but what points of Calvinism have I not shown that Scripture refutes?

:)
 
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cygnusx1

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The meaning, is clear from the context. The word, "BUT", demonstrates that the SECOND phrase is the OPPOSITE of the first.

"NO RESPECTER", is opposed to "God RECEIVES those WHO revere/seek".

Therefore, "respecter/partial" is God if he receives those who do NOT revere/seek"!

Calvinism is the partiality that God is NOT.

the meaning is clear God does favour people ! :clap: :clap: :clap:
 
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cygnusx1

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Before, or AFTER they "revere-Him" and "seek-righteousness"?

What's the timing, Cygnus?

:)

LOVED BEFORE TIME :D ePH 1


Eph.1

[1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
[2] Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world
, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[6] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
[7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
[8] Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
[10] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
[15] Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
[16] Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
[17] That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
[18] The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
[19] And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
[20] Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
[21] Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
[22] And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
[23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
 
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cygnusx1

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This phrase "no respecter of persons" is found six times in the New Testament, and every time the modern versions have distorted the true meaning. Romans 2:11, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25, James 2:1 and 9, and Acts 10:34. In each case it has to do with not receiving the face, outward position, nationality or social rank of another. But God does not treat all people the same, nor are we told to do so either. We are to withdraw from some, avoid, exclude, reject, separate from, and not cast our pearls before others. Most importantly, God Himself chose His elect people in Christ before the foundation of the world and "of the SAME LUMP" makes one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour - Romans 9:21. This is definitely showing partiality, but it is not respecting persons.


Will Kinney






























 
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CCWoody

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You change Paul's words, and eliminate "THROUGH GRACE"?
My apologies for citation from memory. However, this is a direct citation....

By grace you have been saved.

Period.
End of story.

Because there is a clarification later does not invalidate this cite as you would like. Salvation is by grace.

Simply state that you deny it and we can move on. At least then we would have the honesty of knowing that you really believe that salvation is by grace PLUS something you provide.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....


Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist



Woody.
 
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CCWoody

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Woody ~ Let me ask a question: since you agree with me that the future is fixed and unchangeable by either me or you...

Ben Johnson ~ I don't agree; the future is fully at our will.

Woody ~ See, I knew the Open Theist inside of you would get out if pushed.

False charge; God knows the future --- but He does not DETERMINE men's belief.
Ben, you obviously can't even keep your beliefs straight in your own head. Either God knows the future and it is logically fixed or God doesn't know the future.

If God knows the future and his knowledge is that you will perish, then there is nothing that you can do to change the knowledge of God.
If God doesn't know the future then, you can determine a future that is open.

Please be honest with us and tell us what you really believe since you flip flop faster than a politician on what you say you believe.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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CCWoody

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Without faith it is impossible to please God, Woody; as A.T.Robertson said, "Grace is God's gift, faith is ours".

That fully reflects in what Paul said in 2Tim1, "God guards what we entrust, and WE guard what God entrusts".

It's a two-way street. That's why Paul warns us in 1Tim4:16, "WATCH yourselves, PERSEVERE; as you do you will SAVE YOURSELVES!"
So, in Ben Johnson's world salvation is by Grace (God's part) PLUS faith (man's part).

Let's ignore the fact that the verse to which you desperately cling is grace through faith, not grace plus faith.

Is Ben Johnson's view of salvation part God and part man? You must give God a gift for salvation?

?????

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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heymikey80

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Is it "gifted-faith"? Eph2:8 does not assert it. Salvation-by-grace-THROUGH-FAITH happened WHEN we were dead in sins --- it's HOW we were made alive, not SEPARATE.
Ep 2:8 does assert faith is gifted. It's part of salvation, which "is not of yourselves." Salvation is "not of yourselves". Faith is part of salvation. Is faith "of yourselves"?

Faith isn't the cause of our being made alive. Paul said it; your statement is not consistent with Paul's. Paul "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved" Ep 2:4-5

So for Paul -- "Because of God's great love He made us alive; by God's grace you have been saved;"

And of course, if faith isn't separate from New Birth, well, God gives New Birth! (Jn 3:3-8) And if faith isn't separate from salvation, salvation is a gift of God! (Ep 2:8)

So if it's "not SEPARATE", where does true faith come from? God.
Is it, "cannot fall"? Heb4:11 in context with Heb3:6-18 defeats you. So does 1Tim4:16, and Col2:6-8.
By reinterpreting "fall" as "fall into eternal punishment" I guess you could make a case. But that confuses Christian walk with Christian salvation, which is not of works.

I've already talked at length with you in particular, Ben, about Hebrews being written to a church -- a church in which external members were falling out. That's the terminology the Apostle is using, that's the context. He's pointing out church membership and a good walk for a time is no substitute for faith. So Hebrews is little help for your view once its historical context is recognized. The Apostle isn't talking about people who have been saved. He's talking about people in church ... some of whom haven't been saved by faith.

On 1 Tim 4:16: you think that after emphasizing time and time again that salvation is "not of doings [poiema]" Paul reverses himself in 1 Timothy 4:16 and says "by this doing [poion] you'll save yourself" ...? Oh, please, don't give me that. It's obvious. Timothy is preaching the Gospel of Grace! He's preaching the Gospel to himself! And so did we all when we first heard it. We took the Gospel as our own. That's how we were saved; that's how evangelists save others.

Go and do likewise. But don't think that preaching the Gospel gets you saved. :doh: It's by the Gospel that you're saved, not by your work preaching it, studying it, learning it.

No one's denied that we are saved through faith. But we receive faith through the grace of God; and we receive new birth through the grace of God.
The Col2 verse hasn't been answered, to my memory; because it can't.
ROFL! Paul's talking about Christian walk (2:6). He's not talking about Christian salvation. Only by confusing the two can you get falling from salvation out of Col 2:6-7. It's also plural, emphasizing that the people in church are supposed to guard those who could be carried away. People in church want others to hear the pure Gospel of Grace. That's what the Spirit of God works through. His Own Gospel. To expect the Spirit to work with vain philosophy and somehow communicate truth through its exact opposite is imagination in the extreme.

Done. Refuted in two cross-cutting responses.
 
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CCWoody

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Ep 2:8 does assert faith is gifted. It's part of salvation, which "is not of yourselves." Salvation is "not of yourselves". Faith is part of salvation. Is faith "of yourselves"?

If faith is of yourself, then salvation cannot be the gift of God. It is little more than a joint co-venture. God supplies part of the capital and man the rest. Then, together they will build a bridge of salvation over the gulf of sin.

I've been working on the railroad....

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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