How, then, is the Calvinist refuted? (2)

[frumanchu]

It always goes in circles; we refute a point or two, then the same points show up a dozen posts later as if never refuted.

Ben, you continually posture as though Calvinists are "unable" or "unwilling" to refute or even answer your arguments, yet time again we can link you to specific posts where your exact arguments and points were addressed. Yet you persist in claiming we cannot or will not answer your arguments. What are we to make of such outrageous statements?

The discussions generally have Calvinists "throwing a Five-Way", then calling the point "refuted". The Five-Ways are:

1. Subjects were never REALLY saved in the FIRST place
2. Subjects didn't really FALL from salvation
3. Two groups --- one saved, one NEVER saved (professing) lurking AMONGST the saved
4. Hypothetical, advice ("effective means") to KEEP us saved
5. Dispensation --- applied to THEM back THEN but not to US TODAY

Your typical argument: Try to shoehorn our arguments into your predefined categories and then attack the category rather than the argument itself.

 

[LJSGM]

Ok, here are the verses that contradict Calvinistic election. First of all you need to understand that Calvinistic election says that election is God’s choice of a select group of individuals, pre-chosen before he created, and is not in any way linked to faith in Christ. If it was, it would mean that anyone who believed in Christ would become elect, which is the opposite of Calvinistic election. It all comes down to what the criteria for being elect is.

There are many verses that show clearly that it is through faith in Christ that we become elect in Christ, and that before we have faith in Christ we are not elect in any way.

In the Old Testament, the elect are Abraham’s seed (the children of promise). Israel is the chosen race, God’s people, the heirs of the promise given to Abraham and his seed. This is what the New Testament says:


"Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Romans 4:13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

(The promise to Abraham and his offspring makes them God’s people – the elect. To be an heir of the promise is to be an heir of election. Paul states clearly that it is through faith.)

Gal 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Eph 3: 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

Romans 9: 6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

Gal 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. … 28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

Gal 3:6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

(This is why we who are born again in Christ are elect in Christ. For it is Christ who is the chosen one, and those in him are chosen, just as those who were in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were elect in them. More on this later).

21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. …26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And from Ephesians:
1:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household,
Eph 3: 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Election is by faith. The criteria to receive grace in Christ is through faith. The truth is, what God foreknew from the beginning is being determined right now. Who the elect are is being determined now. It is anyone who will believe.
God doesn’t elect people to receive faith, he elects those who have faith in Christ. Therefore faith in Christ is His criteria for election, not the other way around.

Now to be true to the scriptures I should also include the one passage where election is not by faith:

Romans 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Romans 9 is an election before birth and therefore has nothing to do with faith. Paul is not using this as an example of election in Christ which is through faith, rather he is using this as an example of the unelection of the Jews who were hardened and cut off.

This election was actually a pruning of the elect, a cutting off of a limb of election. For both brothers were of Isaac, and so both would have been heirs of the promise, but one was un-elected – Esau, and so was disinherited. This was an unelection, and in this way, Romans 9 is the example used for the hardening of Israel. In Romans 9 Paul is arguing against all such arguments that could be raised against God’s unfairness in un-electing (apart from a remnant) Israel, those who belonged to the chosen race.
That this passage is about the Jews is seen by its context - Paul starts this passage about the Jews at the beginning of chapter 9 and continues in regard to their election and hardening and eventual salvation, right through to the end of chapter 11.

Romans 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

(This shows clearly that the Jews who were cut off, lost their election through unbelief, and can be grafted back in again if they believe. The elect gentiles and remnant Jews became elect through faith in Christ. In Christ we were grafted in and became heirs of the promise - the elect. See all of Romans 9-11).

Now lets look at a parable:

1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. 4"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.' 5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless. 13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14"For many are invited [called], but few are chosen."

This parable shows that there is a criteria for being chosen – wearing the right wedding clothes – which is righteousness in Christ, which comes through faith. This parable is especially important because it is speaking about the Jews who were the elect (chosen ones to be at the wedding), but did not come, so the place of election was given to anyone who would come – anyone off the streets (the gentiles).

Now to give you some verses that show we were NOT elect before we believed:

1 Peter 2: 9 “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.”

(Once you were not of the elect but now you are elect. You were at one time not chosen but have become so through grace in Christ.)

11 “Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.” …”19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household”

(These verses are the very definition of elect – to be a citizen of God’s people, members of his household, a chosen people, a holy nation, a people belonging to God.)

Romans 9:25 "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.'

Ephesians 3:6 “This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.”

(God’s grace is to save the non-elect Gentiles and make them elect in Christ. This is real grace. It is a complete change of destiny. Once you were destined to perish, now in Christ you are destined to everlasting life.)

This is the condition that all are in before salvation:

Eph 2:3 “All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Paul says here we were all “by nature objects of wrath” which corresponds to this verse in Romans 9: 22 refering to the unelect: “What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?”

To be by nature objects of wrath would naturally mean un-elect. Not only that, but to be a sinner is to be destined for destruction, for sin is death. It is because of sin that we are objects of wrath. All who have sinned and fall short of the glory of God are therefore not elect, but are cut off from God and in need of grace to be saved.

To be elect is to be objects of his mercy (see chapter 9 again). You cannot be elect and at the same time be the enemy of God, under God’s wrath, a lost sinner destined for eternal punishment, all of which is said of those who have sinned. And yet we have to be in that sinful condition to be saved by grace, or else it would not be grace.

You cannot at any time be both destined for salvation and destined for death and destruction, objects of wrath and objects of mercy. It is safe to say that at one time all of us were not elect.

How can this be if we were elected before we were created?

God didn’t chose a bunch of individual people to save, he chose Christ to be their savior. By choosing him he was choosing all who would receive his grace in him. If we are saved we are chosen in him. No-one is chosen outside of Christ.

1 Peter 1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Eph 1:11 “In him we were also chosen,…13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit”

(This last verse is an important one. The point that we are included in Christ and so chosen in him is at the point of our salvation, when we believe. When we enter into his salvation we become elect from before the creation of the world (when he was chosen) At the point of salvation we go from being un-elect to being elect in Christ. )

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

If you are saved you are no longer the person who was born naturally, the decendant of Adam with a fallen nature and by that nature an object of wrath. We are a new creation born spiritually in Christ and of Christ. Our new self did not exist before salvation, we are a completely new creation. Our new self was foreknown in Christ, chosen in Christ, predestined in Christ, created in Christ. We are chosen in him just as Israel was chosen in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

We have been saved from the old self that was destined to perish because of sin. Our old self was not foreknown, chosen or predestined to anything but death. We were by nature objects of wrath but we have been made alive with Christ. We have been raised up with Christ into new life. We are chosen in him before the creation of the world.

Before we were saved we were not elect. It is by his grace and loving mercy that he saves the non-elect and makes them elect in Christ Jesus.

To be elect is to be a chosen people, a holy nation, a people belonging to God. In the case of Israel the elect were the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who were heirs to the promise (they were heirs of election).

A person who was born of Israel was included in election at birth, but was chosen in Abraham when Abraham received the promise. In the same way we are included in election when we believe the gospel and are born again in Christ, but we are chosen in Christ from before the creation of the world -- when Christ was chosen.

We are chosen before we existed, not because of a pre-choosing of individuals by God’s foreknowledge, but because Christ was chosen from before time began. God foreknew in Jesus all who would be in Jesus (that is spiritually born of him) and in choosing Jesus, he chose us in him. We are included in that election when we are saved in Christ (included in Christ). Those who are outside of Christ are not elect in Christ. They become elect only when they are included in Christ when they believe.

Calvinism has changed the meaning of election. Calvinistic election is a pre-grace, pre-selection of individuals for salvation.
This was not true of Israel whose election was always current to them. They were not at any stage pre-elected.

Adam was elect of God, and his descendants would have shared in his election in the same way the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did, but in sinning he lost his election. All his descendants are un-elect in him. They are by nature objects of wrath.

God chose Abraham’s descendants through a promise, and he narrowed that election through Isaac and Jacob. But the descendants of Jacob also fell through disobedience and unbelief, with only a remnant remaining. Those who were hardened through disobedience have lost their election. But God’s promise and election of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob still stands. Therefore God keeps his promise through a remnant of Israel who are elect in Christ, and one day all Israel will be saved.

We Gentiles were the un-elect (you could say that is what gentile means – not of God’s chosen people). We were of Adam, fallen in sin and by nature objects of wrath. To the Jews, the idea that gentiles could become elect was impossible. But Paul sees this as a great mystery – that even those who were not elect are able to be elect in Christ. For election this time is not through natural descent, it is spiritual. All those who are born again in Christ are elect in him, whether they are Jew or gentile. This grace was not just given to the Jews but to the gentiles too, for Jesus came not just for the elect but for the un-elect gentiles too, and all who believe in him are saved and are elect in him.

Because of Adam the gentiles are a fallen race and un-elect. We are not the people of God, we are enemies of God. We have no favor with God, only wrath and judgment. But in Christ the way has been opened for the gentiles to be given grace.

God desires all to be saved and offers his grace to the whole world, to all who would believe, not just a select group he has pre-chosen ahead of time. He is working by his Holy Spirit and through his church to bring the gospel to the whole world, and to draw all men to him, so as to save as many as would believe.


About Foreknowledge:

1 Peter 1:2 “…who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father”

1 Peter 1:20 “He was chosen before the creation of the world…”

Eph 1:4 "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world.”

We are chosen in Christ before the creation of the world, but we are included in Christ when we believe. From God’s perspective, he knows the end from the beginning, so he foreknew all who would be saved in Christ. In choosing Christ, he also chose all he foreknew would be saved in Christ. Those he foreknew in Christ he also predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and to be adopted as sons.

From man’s perspective, we don’t live outside of time so to us the choosing is now. If we don’t believe, we are not and never were chosen. But as soon as we believe, we have been chosen from the beginning.

From God’s perspective the point we are chosen is when he chose Christ (before the beginning).

In saying that he chooses by his foreknowledge, there has to be something in what he foreknows that makes him choose one way or the other. Calvinists would believe he chooses according to his foreknowledge of the person and who they are before they exist. I believe that to be very wrong. Grace is not offered to us because of who we are. Grace is offered to us in Christ.

We are chosen in Christ. God would not choose anyone outside of Christ. He chooses those in Christ because he chose Christ and all who are in him -- all who have been included in him.

When do we become included in Christ?

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

It is through believing in Christ that we are included in Christ. This is a key point in understanding being chosen. What God foreknows is us being in Christ, i.e. those who believe and are included in Christ.

What does God base his choosing on? What criteria does God use? The answer is all through the scriptures – faith in Christ. There is no other criteria that God would use, and it is this that he foreknows.

To say otherwise would be to say that a person is saved not by faith but by some other thing that God foreknew about them, whatever character or reason God chose them. This would effectively mean grace to us is not in Christ, but in being chosen. But the grace we have been given was given us in Christ before the beginning of time:

2 Timothy 1:9 “who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,”

And we are saved by that grace through faith.

Christ is God's gift of grace to us, and the only way to be included in that grace is through faith in him. It has to be this that God foreknows, and nothing else. I’m sure if anyone thinks this through they will come to the same conclusion.

If God chooses by his foreknowledge, and his criteria for choosing is that they are in Christ, and they are included in Christ when they believe, then there is no pre-election to salvation, no pre-election to believe. Rather all who believe and are included in Christ, are chosen at the point of believing.

The key difference between Calvinistic election and this view of election comes down to one thing – the criteria God uses to elect us. In Calvinism the criteria is that God foreknew and created the elect to be elect. Biblical election says the criteria for election is to be in Christ, for we are chosen in Christ. Your view says grace is given to an individual (not in Christ) and he is given this grace through God’s foreknowledge and election before he is created. But the Bible says grace was given us in Christ before the beginning of time:
2 Timothy 1:9 “who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,”

The grace of election is the grace of Christ, there is no other grace to us. The grace we receive is in Christ.

Calvinistic election doesn’t fit these scriptures. The only way it could is if you said God created the elect in Christ, to which I would quote the scripture we are included in Christ when we believe. We are created in Christ when we are born again through faith in him. There can be no other way of being in Christ, or receiving the grace of Christ except through faith, and therefore the criteria for election has to be that we believe and are included in Christ.

Eph 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.


We are born of Christ when we are born again. We are a new creation, the old has gone and the new has come. It is difficult for us (because of the continuity) to think that our old self is gone and we are a whole new creation that didn't even exist before. We are "created in Christ". It is that new self that is elect in Christ, not our old self. To be elect you have to be in Christ, and we are included in Christ when we believe.

On this point Calvinism is simply wrong, and by being wrong on this point, the whole of Calvinism crumbles. If God's criteria for being elect is to be in Christ and elect in him, then the criteria rests on faith. All who believe are elect, all who don't believe are not. It isn't an election to believe, it is an election of those who believe. And that means anyone at all can come to him and be saved, not just a pre-selected group. It means his grace is offered to all - to anyone who would believe.

 

[Ben johnson]

LOVED BEFORE TIME Eph1

Sorry --- 2Thess2:13 says "Chosen from the beginning by sanctification, and by faith in the truth".

Faith-in-the-truth is part of that by which we are chosen. To repeat, we are "chosen from the beginning ....THROUGH FAITH".

You cited Eph1:13 --- prove to me that "sealed", isn't the same concept as "received/gifted/immersed/poured". You can't --- it is.

And it precedes "regeneration". Titus3:5-6

Titus says "regnerated us, by the POURED-ON-US Spirit". Acts (10 & 11) says "received the Spirit, AFTER BELIEVING". Eph1 says "sealed by the Spirit, AFTER BELIEVING".

Everywhere you turn, believing/faith comes first.

This phrase "no respecter of persons" is found six times in the New Testament, and every time the modern versions have distorted the true meaning. Romans 2:11, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25, James 2:1 and 9, and Acts 10:34. In each case it has to do with not receiving the face, outward position, nationality or social rank of another. But God does not treat all people the same, nor are we told to do so either. We are to withdraw from some, avoid, exclude, reject, separate from, and not cast our pearls before others.

Deal with one --- Acts10:34-35.

"Respecter" (partiality) is set opposite to "God receives those WHO revere and seek".

Calvinism asserts "God elects those who do NOT revere and seek".

Calvinism is the partiality that God is not. You can ignore Acts10:34-35, but you cannot deny it.

Col3:25 asserts that "he WHO does wrong receives the consequence of the wrong he has done, and that without partiality". Calvinism asserts "corrupt-unelect man has no choice but to do wrong, because he is corrupt and unable to choose else".

Rom2:11 context says that God's kindness is MEANT to lead us to repentance; but hard unrepentant hearts make God MAD. Every one WHO by doing good seeks glory and honor and immortality, receive eternal life; everyone WHO pursues sin receives wrath. Calvinism says "God GRANTS (gifts!) repentance, God decides who DOES good deeds and who is left in their irresistible depravity; God is partial."

Eph6:9 context says "whatever good thing each man DOES, he will receive back from the Lord ...there is no partiality with God".

The other verses you cited speak of "men's partiality".

In every case of "no partiality with God", God stands as RECEIVING man's faith, not selectively GIVING it (partiality). The very verses you cited, defeat your position soundly.

Most importantly, God Himself chose His elect people in Christ before the foundation of the world and "of the SAME LUMP" makes one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour - Romans 9:21. This is definitely showing partiality, but it is not respecting persons

Sorry --- in this case, "atimia" is part of the SAVED. NASV translates it "time-honor" (saved), and "atimia-COMMON" (saved). It is the third group "vessels of wrath prepared (third person, prepared THEMSELVES) for destruction", that are unsaved.

Rom2:11 context says that God's kindness is MEANT to lead us to repentance; but hard unrepentant hearts make God MAD.

In Acts17:30, "God commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent". The Calvinist says "A command to all, doesn't necessarily convey ability to DO what is commanded."

Oh yes it does; a command that carries the consequence of INACTION, certainly DOES imply ability!

"I tell you, unless you REPENT, you WILL PERISH!" Lk13:5

 

[Ben johnson]

My apologies for citation from memory.

It was a "Freudian Slip", Woody. Your platform does found on "by grace alone".

However, this is a direct citation....

By grace you have been saved.

Eph2:5, cannot be separated from Eph2:8; "by grace have you been saved", is repeated in verse 8 "by grace THROUGH FAITH have you been saved".

And there's no way to deny that it happened WHEN we were dead in sins.

Period.
End of story.

Exactly.

Because there is a clarification later does not invalidate this cite as you would like. Salvation is by grace.

Sure it does; "by grace", does not deny "through faith".

God's gift.
Received by faith.

His grace, our faith.

Look at the "duality" in 2Tim1:12-14: "God is able to guard that which we have entrusted to Him; now, YOU guard what HE has entrusted to you." Two-way-street. The concept repeats in 2Tim2:11-13 --- if we abide, THEN we will reign with Him; but if we are faithless and DENY Him, THEN He will deny us (regardless of the fact that HE remains faithful!).

"If we are faithless" (and "denied by Jesus before God"), cannot mean "we are still saved".

Simply state that you deny it and we can move on. At least then we would have the honesty of knowing that you really believe that salvation is by grace PLUS something you provide.

No, it's not --- it's not something I PROVIDE.

...it's something (His grace) I receive.

If I give you a birthday present, do you not have the ability to receive it, or refuse it? If you accept it --- have you changed anything of the gift, added anything to the gift, taken anything away from the gift? No. The gift remains all of me, but received by you.

You would not "congratulate yourself on your wise choice to RECEIVE it" --- instead, you would have grattitude, thinking "BEN! I've been wanting this for YEARS!"

Ben, you obviously can't even keep your beliefs straight in your own head.

Do too.

Either God knows the future and it is logically fixed or God doesn't know the future.

He knows, we are responsible. Just look at all those verses Cygnus tried to cite about "partiality" --- and every last one places God's consideration in CONSEQUENCE of our active choice.

You still cannot deny Jesus' words in Matt7:24-27.

If God knows the future and his knowledge is that you will perish, then there is nothing that you can do to change the knowledge of God.

Doc Brown knew about Marty's collision with the Mercedes ("Back to the Future"). But Marty learned not to be provoked by being called "chicken".

Did Marty change? He didn't hit the Mercedes, did he? God being aware of the future, changes nothing of our responsibility in deciding our eternity.

Go back and read what I said to Cygnus about Rom2:2-8.

If God doesn't know the future, then you can determine a future that is open.

He knows what we will do; He does not decide what we will do. Read Rom2:6-11. Notice that verse 11 says "GOD IS IMPARTIAL".

Calvinism is the partiality that God is not.

Please be honest with us and tell us what you really believe since you flip flop faster than a politician on what you say you believe.

...do not...

So, in Ben Johnson's world salvation is by Grace (God's part) PLUS faith (man's part).

Not "plus", "by". "Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who COMES to God must believe God IS, and that God is a rewarder of those WHO SEEK Him". Heb11:6

Let's ignore the fact that the verse to which you desperately cling is grace through faith, not grace plus faith.

Let's ignore? And respond to something Ben doesn't HOLD??? What does "straw man" mean to you, Woody?

Is Ben Johnson's view of salvation part God and part man?

Tell me how you understand 2Tim1:12-14.

You must give God a gift for salvation?

You must receive God's gift.

"Receive", is "by faith".

your on a roll woody

Nope, his posts are completely, and soundly, refuted.

 

[heymikey80]

Ok, here are the verses that contradict Calvinistic election. First of all you need to understand that Calvinistic election says that election is God’s choice of a select group of individuals, pre-chosen before he created, and is not in any way linked to faith in Christ. If it was, it would mean that anyone who believed in Christ would become elect, which is the opposite of Calvinistic election. It all comes down to what the criteria for being elect is.

First of all, you need to understand that anti-Calvinistic posturing rarely tells the truth about Calvinism. So it has no standing to say what's true or false.

This assertion is false LSGM. Calvinistic election is indeed "in any way linked to faith in Christ". Faith is a result of election, not a cause.

This is so often, pervasively stated in Calvinistic texts as to be unassailable. Cite one place that denies the elect have faith.

The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts WCF 14.1
​

Anyone who believes in Christ is elect. That's the whole point: that those who aren't elect don't come to saving faith in Christ.

"God ordains means as well as ends," said Louis Berkhof. What is this, the dozenth time I've quoted it?

 

[Ben johnson]

Ep 2:8 does assert faith is gifted.

No it doesn't --- "THAT", refers to the ONE SUBJECT --- the entire opening phrase. "THAT SALVATION". Of which "through faith" is only a MODIFIER.
1. By grace
2. Through faith.
3. Not of yourselves.
4. Gift of God.
5. Not by works.

Each of those five, modify "THAT SALVATION". "By-grace-through-faith-have-you-been-saved". THAT is the subject. That is "THAT"...

It's part of salvation, which "is not of yourselves."

Is not. See Heb11:6.

Salvation is "not of yourselves".

Yes --- but the faith which RECEIVES salvation, is.

Faith is part of salvation. Is faith "of yourselves"?

Per Rom10:10, yes.

Faith isn't the cause of our being made alive. Paul said it...

Yes he did --- why do you deny it? "You were made alive, WHEN you were dead, by grace THROUGH FAITH". That's "causal"...

your statement is not consistent with Paul's. Paul "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved" Ep 2:4-5

By grace, through faith. Do you deny that verse 8, repeats verse 5?

Are there TWO instances of "by grace have you been saved"? Are we saved twice?

So for Paul -- "Because of God's great love He made us alive; by God's grace you have been saved;"

Throw away verse five, huh?

And of course, if faith isn't separate from New Birth...

Please read Heb11:6; God receives those who come by faith.

well, God gives New Birth! (Jn 3:3-8)

to those WHO believe...

And if faith isn't separate from salvation, salvation is a gift of God! (Ep 2:8)

Read Rom5:17; those WHO receive the abundance of grace, and WHO receive the gift of righteousness, shall reign with Christ (be saved).

Do you deny that "receive", is "by faith"?

So if it's "not SEPARATE", where does true faith come from? God.

Not according to Rom10:10; and Jude 20 ("building YOURSELVES in holy faith"). And 1Pet1:9 ("receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation").

Scripture stands against "sovereign-gifted-faith". Man chooses to believe, or not.

By reinterpreting "fall" as "fall into eternal punishment" I guess you could make a case. But that confuses Christian walk with Christian salvation, which is not of works.

So --- one can "fall from steadfastness" (2Pet2:17), one can "fall away from the living God" (Heb3:12), and one can "fall and not enter God's rest" (Heb4:11) --- but he's STILL SAVED. Do you begin to see the flaws in Calvinism?

I've already talked at length with you in particular, Ben, about Hebrews being written to a church -- a church in which external members were falling out.

Sorry, it's addressing "don't fall", to US. Diligence is not required for those who have NEVER BEEN SAVED.

This bears repeating --- the only diligence a person who has NEVER been saved can exert, is diligence in UNBELIEF.

See if you can deny that. You can't...

That's the terminology the Apostle is using, that's the context. He's pointing out church membership and a good walk for a time is no substitute for faith. So Hebrews is little help for your view once its historical context is recognized. The Apostle isn't talking about people who have been saved. He's talking about people in church ... some of whom haven't been saved by faith.

"Therefore, let US (well, those of us who have NEVER BEEN saved) be DILIGENT (in unbelief) TO enter God's rest, lest anyone FALL (errrr, that is be diligent in unbelief that you not FALL from ...uhm, fall from what?) by imitating their unbelief and disobedience (be diligent to continue being unbelieving and disobedient, that you not IMITATE their unbelief and disobedience).

Make sense to you, Mike? Sure didn't to me...

On 1 Tim 4:16: you think that after emphasizing time and time again that salvation is "not of doings [poiema]" Paul reverses himself in 1 Timothy 4:16 and says "by this doing [poion] you'll save yourself" ...? Oh, please, don't give me that. It's obvious. Timothy is preaching the Gospel of Grace! He's preaching the Gospel to himself! And so did we all when we first heard it. We took the Gospel as our own. That's how we were saved; that's how evangelists save others.

Sounds like "we should be diligent in our faith, and save ourselves".

Go and do likewise. But don't think that preaching the Gospel gets you saved. It's by the Gospel that you're saved, not by your work preaching it, studying it, learning it.

No one's denied that we are saved through faith.

Actually, yes you have; by "gifted faith", Paul REALLY meant "By grace THROUGH GRACE have you been saved"...

But we receive faith through the grace of God; and we receive new birth through the grace of God.

See? Two dispensations of grace.
1. Grace (Jesus' sacrifice)
2. Grace (God's decision that we WILL believe)

ROFL! Paul's talking about Christian walk (2:6). He's not talking about Christian salvation. Only by confusing the two can you get falling from salvation out of Col 2:6-7. It's also plural, emphasizing that the people in church are supposed to guard those who could be carried away. People in church want others to hear the pure Gospel of Grace. That's what the Spirit of God works through. His Own Gospel. To expect the Spirit to work with vain philosophy and somehow communicate truth through its exact opposite is imagination in the extreme.

I see --- so "being taken captive away from Christ", doesn't convey "unsalvation"?

It does.

Done. Refuted in two cross-cutting responses.

Actually, with sincere respect, your refutation is shreaded.


....and no amount of glue will re-assemble it....

 

[heymikey80]

Sorry --- 2Thess2:13 says "Chosen from the beginning by sanctification, and by faith in the truth".

Uh. The citation is, "chosen from the beginning into salvation by sanctification and faith."

election into salvation -- Reformed
salvation by sanctification and faith -- Reformed

 

[nobdysfool]

His grace, our faith.

No, it's not --- it's not something I PROVIDE.

Ben, make up your mind! If it's "our faith" it's something we provide to augment God's Grace.

Now, let's look at one of Ben's "absolute" refutations:

Please be honest with us and tell us what you really believe since you flip flop faster than a politician on what you say you believe.

...do not...

There you have it, folks! Woody was refuted by Ben by saying two words: "do not". This is the level of many of Ben's supposed "refutations". It's refuted because Ben says so.....

 

[Ben johnson]

Uh. The citation is, "chosen from the beginning into salvation by sanctification and faith."

election into salvation -- Reformed
salvation by sanctification and faith -- Reformed

The problem is it doesn't say "chosen TO faith", it says "chosen BY faith".

That places "chosenness", subordinate to "faith".

...just as Jesus showed in His parable, Matt22:2-14.

Many are called, few are chosen; only those who came by faith.

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben, make up your mind! If it's "our faith" it's something we provide to augment God's Grace.

"Augment"? How does "receive", "augment"? Receiving a gift changes nothing of the gift, does it?

Now, let's look at one of Ben's "absolute" refutations:

Please be honest with us and tell us what you really believe since you flip flop faster than a politician on what you say you believe.

...do not...

There you have it, folks! Woody was refuted by Ben by saying two words: "do not". This is the level of many of Ben's supposed "refutations". It's refuted because Ben says so.....

You choose one line, and ignore the rest of a long post. Why don't you respond to all of Post 64 (to Woody), or Post 66 (Mikey)?

See if you agree that "diligence in unbelief and disobedience is required, lest we fall from where we never were, and fail to enter God's rest by imitating their disobedience and unbelief".

 

[nobdysfool]

"Augment"? How does "receive", "augment"? Receiving a gift changes nothing of the gift, does it?

Ben, you have clearly said that God's Grace is God's part, and faith is our part. Do you deny this? The clear upshot of this reasoning is that we add something to Grace in order to be saved. Yet you bob and weave when this clear conclusion is pointed out. I believe you know that it cannot be that way, but you can't bring yourself to see it the correct way because it would cause a fatal collapse of the rest of your house-of-cards doctrine. You're between a rock and a hard place, Ben, and you know it.

You choose one line, and ignore the rest of a long post. Why don't you respond to all of Post 64 (to Woody), or Post 66 (Mikey)?

Why? Because I agree with Woody 110%. He has clearly nailed your hide to the barn door. I also find Mikey to have a very good grasp of the Truth, far better than you.

See if you agree that "diligence in unbelief and disobedience is required, lest we fall from where we never were, and fail to enter God's rest by imitating their disobedience and unbelief".

Ben, Calvinism does not ignore diligence on the Believer's part, or dedication to pursuing holiness and sanctification. You often claim that Calvinism sets aside those things and I will tell you right now, in the clearest words I can, that when you claim such, you are lying.

If it is due to lack of knowledge about what Calvinism teaches, then it is incumbent on you to correct that problem, post-haste.

IF IT IS A KNOWING LIE, THEN YOU HAVE SINNED, AND ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN STATED DOCTRINES, YOU ARE IN A STATE OF SIN, AND NOT SAVED.

This you should also correct, post-haste.

Your refutations are often no more than your say-so. I showed an example of one of them. Deal with it.

 

[heymikey80]

No it doesn't --- "THAT", refers to the ONE SUBJECT --- the entire opening phrase. "THAT SALVATION". Of which "through faith" is only a MODIFIER.
1. By grace
2. Through faith.
3. Not of yourselves.
4. Gift of God.
5. Not by works.

Each of those five, modify "THAT SALVATION". "By-grace-through-faith-have-you-been-saved". THAT is the subject. That is "THAT"... Is not. See Heb11:6. Yes --- but the faith which RECEIVES salvation, is. Per Rom10:10, yes.

None of your citations establishes that faith isn't given by God. On the contrary

For it has been given to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake Pp 1:29

but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. Jn 10:26 [not "and so you are not my sheep"]
​

Yes he did --- why do you deny it? "You were made alive, WHEN you were dead, by grace THROUGH FAITH". That's "causal"... By grace, through faith. Do you deny that verse 8, repeats verse 5?

No he didn't, I deny your interpretation, because you left out certain ... VERBS in between! And of course excluding VERBS tends to change the meaning of the sentence.

made us alive together with Christ -- by grace you have been saved [and overlapped] by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it's a gift of God.

You don't receive grace through faith. You receive salvation through faith, by grace. This whole thing isn't of yourselves it's a gift of God.

It's what Paul said. Paul refused to assign what's "not of yourselves" to any one thing. It's what went before that God gave.

Paul goes further and further in contradiction:

... not out of you; a gift [out of] God -- not out of works. We are the result of His works, created in Christ Jesus for good works.
​

Your attempt to parallel by eliding "saved" and making "faith" cause "grace" instead of the other way around -- it's not persuasive.

 

[heymikey80]

The problem is it doesn't say "chosen TO faith", it says "chosen BY faith".

That places "chosenness", subordinate to "faith".

...just as Jesus showed in His parable, Matt22:2-14.

Many are called, few are chosen; only those who came by faith.

The problem is that it doesn't say "chosen by faith" either.
The solution is what it says -- "chosen to salvation by faith".

Again: elide the odd NOUN or VERB, and the sentence changes meaning.

 

[frumanchu]

Doc Brown knew about Marty's collision with the Mercedes ("Back to the Future"). But Marty learned not to be provoked by being called "chicken".

Did Marty change? He didn't hit the Mercedes, did he? God being aware of the future, changes nothing of our responsibility in deciding our eternity.

LOL!!!

You know you're desperate when you start quoting fictional time travel movies to support your theology

 

[nobdysfool]

LOL!!!

You know you're desperate when you start quoting fictional time travel movies to support your theology

LOL! And what Ben didn't know was, that you and I are experts on those movies....He stepped into it clear up to his ears....

 

[frumanchu]

And it precedes "regeneration". Titus3:5-6

Titus says "regnerated us, by the POURED-ON-US Spirit". Acts (10 & 11) says "received the Spirit, AFTER BELIEVING". Eph1 says "sealed by the Spirit, AFTER BELIEVING".

Everywhere you turn, believing/faith comes first

Once again you argue in error from Titus 3:5-6, engaging in blatant eisegesis.

And you have failed to respond to the glaring paradox your position on this verse leaves, Ben. You have claimed that you "deny that "regeneration" comes to the NON-INDWELT person." By that reasoning it is INESCAPABLE that you believe NONE OF THE APOSTLE'S WERE SAVED until at least Pentecost since it was at Pentecost that the Holy Spirit was first poured out upon God's people as Jesus had promised.

Furthermore, because Christ Himself said that one MUST be born again to enter the Kingdom, and you claim that one can only be born again following the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, it is INESCAPABLE that you believe NONE OF THE SAINTS WHO DIED BEFORE PENTECOST could have been saved.

Do you deny this is your position? YES OR NO?

More later....

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben, you have clearly said that God's Grace is God's part, and faith is our part.

I said it, ATRobertson said it. See "commentary on Eph2:8".

Do you deny this? The clear upshot of this reasoning is that we add something to Grace in order to be saved.

You're asserting that somehow "grace is CHANGED". As I said, grace is a gift; the receiving of a gift, changes nothing OF the gift.

Yet you bob and weave when this clear conclusion is pointed out.

Do not; I'm consistent...

I believe you know that it cannot be that way, but you can't bring yourself to see it the correct way because it would cause a fatal collapse of the rest of your house-of-cards doctrine.

You're acting as if what I post, doesn't have the support of Scripture.

You're between a rock and a hard place, Ben, and you know it.

I'm standing on The Rock.

Why? Because I agree with Woody 110%. He has clearly nailed your hide to the barn door. I also find Mikey to have a very good grasp of the Truth, far better than you.

Every point Woody made, my post refuted; Mikey too. I'd like you to answer those two posts.

Ben, Calvinism does not ignore diligence on the Believer's part, or dedication to pursuing holiness and sanctification.

No no no --- check again --- the assertion was made that "Heb4:11 was NOT talking about believers."

And I said, "Unbelievers, cannot excercise diligence in belief; they can only be diligent in UNBELIEF."

Therefore, Calvinists have no response to the passage.

"Therefore, let US be all the more diligent to enter God's rest, lest anyone FALL by imitating the Israelites' unbelief and disobedience."

1. The contention that "he's talking to the NEVER-saved", is overturned.
2. The contention that "fall/not-enter-God's-rest" is not about "salvation", is overturned.
3. The context (Heb3:6-18) overturns the contention that "it's 100% effective MEANS to keep us saved".

You have no response to the passage. You can only say "It's refuted"; but cannot provide that refutation.

You often claim that Calvinism sets aside those things and I will tell you right now, in the clearest words I can, that when you claim such, you are lying.

Woody said:

The Apostle isn't talking about people who have been saved. He's talking about people in church ... some of whom haven't been saved by faith.

And I pointed out that "never-saved people", cannot excercise "diligence in belief". They can only excercise "diligence in UNBELIEF".

Therefore, Woody is wrong --- he's speaking to the "saved".

If it is due to lack of knowledge about what Calvinism teaches, then it is incumbent on you to correct that problem, post-haste.

There is no problem; my refutation, is sound.

IF IT IS A KNOWING LIE, THEN YOU HAVE SINNED, AND ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN STATED DOCTRINES, YOU ARE IN A STATE OF SIN, AND NOT SAVED.

With sincere respect, my brother --- do you ever listen to the words you speak to me? I never speak like that to you.

This you should also correct, post-haste.

There's nothing to correct, is there?

Your refutations are often no more than your say-so. I showed an example of one of them. Deal with it.

Please deal with what I just said; I refuted the premise that "Heb4:11 is not talking to the SAVED".

If it's written to the UNSAVED, then they CANNOT excercise diligence in saved-faith. By saying "us", the writer (likely Paul) includes himself; he clearly uses "God's-rest" as a euphemism for "salvation". And he plainly states "fall", and "by imitating their unbelief (and disobedience)".

Calvinism has no answer for this one....

 

[Ben johnson]

None of your citations establishes that faith isn't given by God. On the contrary
For it has been given to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake Pp 1:29

"Granted"? What does that mean? "Charizomai" means "give graciously/freely, bestow". In Eph1:5-6, the kind intention of God's will was freely bestowed upon us in the Beloved --- Jesus.

God's kind will is clearly stated in John6:40: "This is the will of God, that all who see Jesus AND BELIEVE may be saved".

It's fully consistent to perceive Philip1:29 to intend "granted to believe, and suffer", as something freely chosen.

"Granting" is the provision, "receiving by faith" is the realization.

"God is the Savior of the world, malista-chiefly/above-all believers".

"World-Savior" provision, belief realization.

but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. Jn 10:26 [not "and so you are not my sheep"]

Don't believe WHAT? You write as though you think it is You don't believe in ME, because You're not My (predestined) sheep".

As we've discussed >2 dozen times, this is what He really said:

The Jews asked Him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly."

Jesus said, "I told you (that I'm the Messiah), but you do not believe (that I'm the Messiah); you do not believe (that I'm the Messiah), because you are not of My sheep (because you have not believed in Me). If ANYONE (tis) enters through Me, he shall be saved (shall become My sheep), and shall go in and out and find pasture (shall become My sheep)". Jn10:24, 25, 26, 9

No he didn't, I deny your interpretation, because you left out certain ... VERBS in between! And of course excluding VERBS tends to change the meaning of the sentence.

made us alive together with Christ -- by grace you have been saved [and overlapped] by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it's a gift of God.

It still says, "WHEN we were dead ...God made us alive ...by grace THROUGH FAITH".

No way to change that...

You don't receive grace through faith.

Apparently we do. "...those WHO RECEIVE the abundance of grace and WHO RECEIVE the gift of righteousness shall reign through ...Jesus Christ." Rom5:17

You receive salvation through faith, by grace. This whole thing isn't of yourselves it's a gift of God.

Then why does He run a "final judgment", meting out to those who BY seeking glory/honor/immortality, eterna life --- and to those who DO NOT seek righteousness but pursue sin, wrath? Rom2:6-8

It's what Paul said. Paul refused to assign what's "not of yourselves" to any one thing. It's what went before that God gave.

Paul said it was by faith.

Paul goes further and further in contradiction:
... not out of you; a gift [out of] God -- not out of works. We are the result of His works, created in Christ Jesus for good works.

It's the same as in John1:12-13; verse 13 asserts "the begottenness is not of men, but of God"; but verse 12 says "those who RECEIVE Jesus gain the right to become (begotten) children of God, even those who BELIEVE on His name".

Your attempt to parallel by eliding "saved" and making "faith" cause "grace" instead of the other way around -- it's not persuasive.

Faith, which happened WHEN we were dead in sins, made us alive by receiving God's grace.

It's fully persuasive. Rock solid, even.

The problem is that it doesn't say "chosen by faith" either.
The solution is what it says -- "chosen to salvation by faith".

Again: elide the odd NOUN or VERB, and the sentence changes meaning.

There's no change in meaning; chosen to salvation by sanctification, and by faith in the truth."

Faith is causal.

 

[cygnusx1]

Faith is causal.

That is false !!!!!!

Faith is never causal , it is ;


Hbr 11:1¶Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. KJV


Here faith is responsive , it is the evidence of things NOT SEEN , ie, things that already exist but are unseen are evidenced / made known/ revealed by faith .


Abraham was saved "by" his faith not because of it!

tell me when was Abraham justified ?


Faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen , not the cause or instigator !


Redemption is already accomplished for the elect , Christ blotted out their sin on the cross , even while we were enemies Christ blotted out our sin and reconciled us to God , we do not merit or effect salvation by our faith , instead by faith we receive what is accomplished long before we received it , faith is a realisation that we have been saved by Christ's work on Calvary , for faith is not some magical incantation that makes things happen , rather it is "the assurance of things not seen ........ what is faith , Heb 11 , what is an assurance ? it is a realisation that salvation is already complete and needs no help or additions from sinners , we merely accept it through God graced faith , we renounce every claim to self-rightousness , we cast scorn on our best efforts and trust in Christ alone , our faith , if it be born of God , looks away from self and looks only to Christ.

The salvation that we receive through faith is simply the application of what is already DONE for us , our sins are already blotted out !!!


when do our sins get dealt with ?

some think our sins are not blotted out until we believe , some say we are not reconciled to God until we believe , but scripture speaks about these things in TWO ways , salvation accomplished and salvation applied!

Those who believe that they are righteous because of their faith , that God looks on their faith as the ground and reason that they are righteous and saved have no explanantion at all for why Christ needed to die !

If salvation is given because we have faith then Jesus death is not salvivic ......... he saves no-one , He makes none Righteous , He died not in order to save sinners , for "faith is all that is needed to make us righteous".......... so goes the faulty logic of those who deny faith is merely an instrument to our salvation and righteousness.

The whole point of salvation "by faith" is NOT to reintroduce works by the back door , and make no mistake about it I am talking about faith that works by love , actions follow (James) and I am saying this is not the GROUND < REASON < CAUSE of our salvation , God doesn't look at what you do and as a result say " I am so impressed with your obedience I will save you" , that would be merit!

Salvation is by GRACE , it is something granted , a Divine gift , the reception of which , by faith , is certainly NOT the reason it is given , for if it was , salvation would simply be because of man's faith , and not because of GRACE> it would be merited by obedience , not given as a unilateral gift , receiving it by faith is none causative , faith is the assurance of things (salvation in Christ) not seen , not the cause of salvation.

 

[cygnusx1]

ben , faith makes none alive , God's word raises the dead not our faith , while we were dead in trespasses and sins , God raised us ............ God's work not yours !

faith is purely instrumental in salvation , in that we are saved THROUGH faith , just as a person is saved from a house fire through passing through an open window on the shoulder of a FIREMAN , the open window didn't save him , the firemen did!