How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

[Non sequitur]

Someone post that study showing atheists understand religion better than religious people. I'm getting tired of doing it.

See, the whole reason one remains Christian is because there has to be something that makes them incapable of seeing the contradictions in the bible, or incapable of discerning the reason for interpreting one passage literally and another figuratively even in cases where they are in the same book.

It's what you implement logic and actually understand the words you're reading (or at least not selectively making special pleas to fit your opinion when the bible blatantly disagrees with you) that causes one to lose faith in it.

The reason I'm an atheist is because I understand religion.

I have no idea what "that" study is, but here is a recent one.

 

[Delphiki]

Close enough. Thanks.

 

[Skaloop]

I'm having trouble equating this with this?:

"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day." - Douglas Adams

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adams

"Skaloopdidit" - Keeping Skaloop as the first cause until science can rule him out.

"I'd be a theist if it weren't for God." - Me

Well, I haven't had the phone call. As such, those are currently reflective of my beliefs on the matter. The phone call would persuade me to re-examine them. Even if I did, that does not remove the truthful nature of, well, the first two at least. I will still value understanding over ignorance, and I will still believe that the garden is beautiful, fairies or not.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Well, I haven't had the phone call. As such, those are currently reflective of my beliefs on the matter. The phone call would persuade me to re-examine them. Even if I did, that does not remove the truthful nature of, well, the first two at least. I will still value understanding over ignorance, and I will still believe that the garden is beautiful, fairies or not.

I agree that you have to have understanding over ignorance and gardens are beautiful...most anyway.

 

[selfinflikted]

I agree that you have to have understanding over ignorance and gardens are beautiful...most anyway.

You haven't seen mine.. and if there are fairies, they should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[Oncedeceived]

You haven't seen mine.. and if there are fairies, they should be ashamed of themselves.

I love to laugh, it probably is my most favorite thing to do. You just made my day.

 

[selfinflikted]

I love to laugh, it probably is my most favorite thing to do. You just made my day.

Yay

 

[Oncedeceived]

Yay

 

[Greg1234]

Could you please tell me a faith that is not mythical? if faith is required what else can they be? after all they are not based on facts are they? (facts do not require faith)

Sure.

-Faith in magnetic fields (unless you're a visiblist which means that "WE DON'T KNOW" )

-Faith in Pyramd builders (unless you think that they can arise by chance)

-Faith in the civil war

-Faith in God (unless youre a materialist which means "WE DON'T KNOW")

Why do you think religions have lasted so long? not because they are true but because they can not be proved to be untrue, that and the fact that some people need them.
Religious people choose to believe that the default position is "believe before there is proof" when the default position should always be "do not believe until there is proof".

The request for evidence for God is actually a request for evidence that data is not secretly materialism. It isn't valid. Materialists read the dictionary on "faith," see "without evidence" and automatically run in without realizing the different types of faith. They end up looking like modern day visiblists (people who don't believe that invisible things exist) and obstinately refuse to accept the burden of proof as the dictionary definition is still ringing in your ears.

 

[Paul 5]

I would disagree, but I've been wrong before (like, once. Ever).



In fact, that is the very definition of "atheist."



I would argue that you are.



Irrelevant. I just want to agree on definitions so that meaningful discussion can take place.

I won't quibble over the definitions of these words too much, but I will cite a common reference to back up my earlier definitions:

From Wiki:

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] (Atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.[1][2][3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism)

(emphasis mine)

Though atheism is the absense of BELIEF that a deity exists,it is certainly not the absense of BELIEF. I am a christian and therefore I have the absense of belief that a God cannot exist,and an atheist has the absense of belief that a God does exist...so we are both operating from personal belief.

 

[Phred]

Though atheism is the absense of BELIEF that a deity exists,it is certainly not the absense of BELIEF. I am a christian and therefore I have the absense of belief that a God cannot exist,and an atheist has the absense of belief that a God does exist...so we are both operating from personal belief.

Not quite. I am quite factually certain that the Christian God does not exist. The same way you're factually certain that Zeus doesn't exist. Or Mithras...

Otherwise you can't equate my absence of belief with your presence of belief. You believe in magic in the face of the absence of evidence that magic exists. Fishes appear from nowhere. Men walk on water. Donkeys talk. The dead rise. Magic. These are not anywhere near on par with the belief that gods do not exist because I haven't seen evidence that they do.

Nice try.

 

[Greg1234]

Though atheism is the absense of BELIEF that a deity exists,it is certainly not the absense of BELIEF. I am a christian and therefore I have the absense of belief that a God cannot exist,and an atheist has the absense of belief that a God does exist...so we are both operating from personal belief.

I guess you could just use "amaterialism" (the lack of belief in a godless reality or realities) to contend with atheism.

 

[AV1611VET]

Fishes appear from nowhere.

Fishes didn't appear from nowhere.

Nowhere is creatio ex nihilo.

Fishes appeared from somewhere.

Somewhere is creatio ex materia.

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Do you see what calling this stuff "magic" does to your thinking?

It causes you to make mistakes.

Thank you for such a good demonstration of something I've been saying here for five years.

 

[Greg1234]

Not quite. I am quite factually certain that the Christian God does not exist. The same way you're factually certain that Zeus doesn't exist. Or Mithras...

Youre all over the place here. It's like taking the spanish word for bananas and paralleling it with the english for truck.

Otherwise you can't equate my absence of belief with your presence of belief. You believe in magic in the face of the absence of evidence that magic exists. Fishes appear from nowhere. Men walk on water. Donkeys talk. The dead rise. Magic. These are not anywhere near on par with the belief that gods do not exist because I haven't seen evidence that they do.

Nice try.

Almost everything in microbiology is magical in astronomy. Calling something "magic" is a moot point.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

Not quite. I am quite factually certain that the Christian God does not exist.

Do you think you understand all mysteries, then, and that your wisdom reaches far into times and realms you have never experienced? Why not be an agnostic?

There is stuff that exists. That's weird already.
There is living stuff. Wow.
Some of the living stuff is aware. Huh?
Oh, and some of that living stuff has notions of right and wrong, pangs of guilt, aspirations for what is best... ????

So in reality, the idea that reality inherently contains the potential for life, awareness, and conscience/desire for what is best -- what is the basis for that latent potential?

At least an agnostic says "something full of life, awareness, conscience, and appreciation for what is truly best, COULD be the basis, perhaps"

 

[AV1611VET]

Calling something "magic" is a moot point.

It also causes mistakes.

} So much for scientific scrutiny.

 

[Paul 5]

Could you please tell me a faith that is not mythical? if faith is required what else can they be? after all they are not based on facts are they? (facts do not require faith)

Why do you think religions have lasted so long? not because they are true but because they can not be proved to be untrue, that and the fact that some people need them.
Religious people choose to believe that the default position is "believe before there is proof" when the default position should always be "do not believe until there is proof".

There really is a lot of evidence that there is a God if one is willing to honestly look. I was over at the neighbors some time back and a friend stopped by who was just coming back from the funeral of a young man,I do not know all the details but the story went something like this. Apparently the young man had something wrong with him and according to his wife he called her and the kids into a room and told them," people say it can't be so but God has been talking to me for about an hour,He told me not to worry about you and the kids that everything would be alright", after that he held them in his arms for a couple of hours and then they went into another room and when they came back he had died. The stories of people who have encountered God are vast in number. The evidence is there.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

While radical credulousness has its dangers, so does radical doubt. Neither is all that functional, in my experience.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Though atheism is the absense of BELIEF that a deity exists,it is certainly not the absense of BELIEF. I am a christian and therefore I have the absense of belief that a God cannot exist,and an atheist has the absense of belief that a God does exist...so we are both operating from personal belief.

Personally, my position is one of unbelief. That is to say, in the same way you do not believe in Molek, I do not believe in your god. Those who claim a god/s exist have not met their burden of proof. Until such a time that positive evidence is discovered, I will remain atheist.

 

[Nomarga]

There really is a lot of evidence that there is a God if one is willing to honestly look. I was over at the neighbors some time back and a friend stopped by who was just coming back from the funeral of a young man,I do not know all the details but the story went something like this. Apparently the young man had something wrong with him and according to his wife he called her and the kids into a room and told them," people say it can't be so but God has been talking to me for about an hour,He told me not to worry about you and the kids that everything would be alright", after that he held them in his arms for a couple of hours and then they went into another room and when they came back he had died. The stories of people who have encountered God are vast in number. The evidence is there.

Awesome anecdote, but anecdotes can't be used as evidence for something as significant as the creator of the universe who apparently knows when and with whom we should/n't have sex, or what music we should/n't listen to.