How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

Catherineanne · Jul 26, 2011

Delphiki said:
I sometimes still have trouble believing that while a religion's dogma puts lying up there as one of the worst possible things you could do, it's followers still insist that they've talked personally with God in a manner that they claim couldn't be attributed to desperate imagination or mental illness. You know you've never talked to God directly, so why keep lying about it? You know every single one of you who might speak in tongues at church is faking it, but you do it anyway because you fear that all the other fakers aren't faking it.

Quit being dishonest with yourselves and open your eyes and your minds to reality. It's actually a much much larger and wondrous universe than the one described as being created by God in your holy book.

So many of you have already doubted, you just repress it. "What would my parents do? What would my friends do?"

The reason it's so difficult to take those Christians that are so afraid that they claim to believe in the literal account of Genesis seriously is because I know that you're either mad or lying.

I know you think the creation story and the flood story are ridiculously impossible, and that you've never see one proof of God. I know that you see the beauty in the universe and know that you know it's all really there. Why waste your life lying to yourself and others?

Sorry, everyone.. feeling a little "soapbox-y".

I think you have your definition of 'Christian' a little wonky.

A Christian must believe in Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Saviour, and hopefully also ascribe to Nicene.

http://www.creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm

After that a belief in a literal Noah's Ark, Garden of Eden, infallible Bible and modern manifestation of the charismatic gifts is purely optional.

Clearly, those who hold such beliefs will tend to regard them as mandatory, but in fact the Bible says no such thing, and most Christians on earth are not at all bothered about them.

However, you also have your definition of mental illness a little wonky as well. In a culture which accepts the possible existence of God, as ours still does on the whole, anyone customarily addressing God cannot be regarded as mentally ill on that count alone. Our culture accepts talking to God as part of the very broad range that comprises normal, in other words.

It is only if they address a being who cannot be shown to be culturally validated that their mental health may be called into question.

I do hope that helps, on both counts.

Catherineanne · Jul 26, 2011

selfinflikted said:
Why? What's the point in that?

There has to be some value in having faith.

Catherineanne · Jul 26, 2011

selfinflikted said:
I tried for years to initiate a relationship with god. No dice. I suppose in some ways I'm jealous of those of you who claim to have found this relationship for yourselves. I'm not used to failure.

Some people get to walk in the sunshine straight away, others have to hack their way through the rainforest for year after year after year.

I don't know why this is, and I am sure it is no consolation to hear that those who have the latter path are those closest to God's heart, but there you are. It's a mystery.

Catherineanne · Jul 26, 2011

selfinflikted said:
I did.

Like Skaloop said: If there is a god, he'd know what it takes. I won't put my life, or reasoning, on hold while I wait though.

Quite right.

Delphiki · Jul 26, 2011

Catherineanne said:
This is consistent with my experience of God. He uses the small things in our lives to convince us of his love for us.

Only because you look for them. If you look at a cloudy sky wanting to see a bunny rabbit, you'll also eventually see a bunny rabbit in the clouds.

OD seeing the aurora borealis is just that: seeing the aurora borealis. What about it makes it different that any other time you can see northern lights? The fact that she was asking God for directions when she saw them.

Catherineanne · Jul 26, 2011

Rewrite said:
It would seem to be a bit like astrology, you can predict whatever you like will happen to Virgo's and if it happens to one of the tens of millions of Virgo's in the world then you can claim that the prophecy was true, that's the thinking of the demented.

Well, if God were into fortune telling, no doubt that would be true. Sadly for us, he is more into, 'You just step out blindly, and trust me for the rest.'

Catherineanne · Jul 26, 2011

Delphiki said:
Only because you look for them. If you look at a cloudy sky wanting to see a bunny rabbit, you'll also eventually see a bunny rabbit in the clouds.

Don't be silly. There are no rabbits in the clouds.

Catherineanne · Jul 26, 2011

Rewrite said:
Like a Christian in Mecca or a Muslim in Dallas.

Nice try but no cigar; a belief in God is very close to a cultural universal. Not everyone has such a belief, but pretty well every culture has a variant on it.

A Christian speaking to God on the moon is no more insane than a Christian in St Paul's Cathedral. Rarity does not denote insanity.

Catherineanne · Jul 26, 2011

Rewrite said:
Perhaps, but not in unfounded faith.

Well, you can either trust until you are betrayed, or never trust in case you are betrayed.

I am going with the former, and several decades in, I have not yet found my faith to be unfounded. Quite the opposite.

Catherineanne · Jul 26, 2011

Rewrite said:
Would you think that the common denominator there could be the fear of death?

Well, that is possible, but it would only be speculation on my part as I have not conducted any kind of study into this. I would say, however, that it is not my own personal motivation. I am not at all afraid of death; I am ready to die any time, any day. I would prefer to stick around for a little longer, because I haven't finished everything I want to do, but this is not in my hands, and I accept the will of God.

I would suggest an alternative, therefore. Every human culture experiences or postulates something greater than or beyond himself, which in former times was formalised into a deity or deities, but which these days may be formalised in humanitarian terms instead.

Rituals around the passage from life to death play a part in formalised beliefs, but their prominence will vary. Not all religions are predicated upon a death cult, in other words.

Catherineanne · Jul 26, 2011

Rewrite said:
Do you think faith in the FSM would give the same result? unfounded faith will always give the same result,
we start with nothing so there's nothing to let us down.

You are starting from the assumption that all faiths are mythical. Clearly I don't start from that point, so the answer is no.

I have to say, though, that I really don't care if I am totally mistaken, and the end result of a lifetime of devotion to God is eternal oblivion. I will have lost nothing from that.

Delphiki · Jul 26, 2011

Catherineanne said:
I have to say, though, that I really don't care if I am totally mistaken, and the end result of a lifetime of devotion to God is eternal oblivion. I will have lost nothing from that.

Unless you were supposed to be devoted to Allah your whole life... In which case you are ska-rewed.

Catherineanne · Jul 26, 2011

Delphiki said:
Unless you were supposed to be devoted to Allah your whole life... In which case you are ska-rewed.

Allah will weigh the good that I have done against the bad, and his standard is far lower than that of Christ, so I will be just fine.

But thanks for the concern.

Oncedeceived · Jul 26, 2011

Non sequitur said:
Recovery from the 2008 crash, caused by athesits?

Poor budgeting from the atheist U.S. leaders?

The claim was being made that since the country had turned more secular the standard of living was much better.

Oncedeceived · Jul 26, 2011

Skaloop said:
Because the secularism/liberalism/what-have-you of American society has little if anything to do with the GDP? Because GDP growth is not linear, and is subject to wanes and waxes? Because of the increase in evangelical, fundamentalist Christians? The continued reduction in the number of pirates? Increased internet usage?

I dunno. Why do you think it is going down now?

It was not my claim.

Oncedeceived · Jul 26, 2011

Simply_Amazing said:
So... Secularization has been increasing. (there really isn't a measurement, but if you'd like to provide the relevant statistics...) over America's history. Work quality has drastically improved... and then dropped off slightly over the last 20 years? It's much better than it was at the turn of the 20th century, and that's not going to change. (not to mention the improvement of equal rights and overall healthiness) Your point still hasn't been remotely made.

I am sitting in front of this laughing at how similar this disconnect is to the children's game of whispering a story around the room and finding how much it has changed when it comes back to you.

I never made any claim about the standard of living per se. You did and I just was commenting on what you provided. I said that our culture has changed due to the Christian, not anything about the secular components of our society. Our country's experiencing a down turn and I have opinions that are Christian based about the Christian community as a whole.

(FYI, even if your claim that quality of life has gone down is true, you'd still have to link this to secularization. You'd need prove of causation and not correlation or coincidence.)

Not my claim.

So... an earthquake kills thousands. One child survived unscathed in a situation where the odds say he almost certainly should have been killed. Would you call this a miracle?

Maybe.

Like most subjective, anecdotal evidence, I chose to leave it.

Peace.

Oncedeceived · Jul 26, 2011

Skaloop said:
Because the secularism/liberalism/what-have-you of American society has little if anything to do with the GDP? Because GDP growth is not linear, and is subject to wanes and waxes? Because of the increase in evangelical, fundamentalist Christians? The continued reduction in the number of pirates? Increased internet usage?

I dunno. Why do you think it is going down now?

I have my thoughts but I don't really need to share them.

Oncedeceived · Jul 26, 2011

Catherineanne said:
This is consistent with my experience of God. He uses the small things in our lives to convince us of his love for us. Looking back there will be a natural explanation for each one, because God is not interested in breaking the laws of nature, but because we know the context, we can see the hand of God, and we know.

This kind of experience will resonate with other believers, and leave non believers unconvinced. Pretty well the same as during the Lord's lifetime, really. And after many, many years of such experiences it is rather entertaining to be accused by unbelievers of having faith against reason, and against all evidence. The evidence is there.

I agree.

Oncedeceived · Jul 26, 2011

Catherineanne said:
I get doubts all the time. Funnily enough I never doubt that God exists, but I do doubt whether he cares about me, or wants me in church.

My priest is very patient with this one; as often as I let him know that the doubts are there, he will patiently tell me once again that God does want me there, and I try to take his word for it.

It is very difficult to believe contrary to doubt. The best we can do is to say, 'Lord, I believe. Help thou my unbelief.' And then act as if we believe as much as we would want to; in my case by going to church in spite of those doubts, rather than allowing them to take control.

Maybe God is the cause behind these doubts.

Oncedeceived · Jul 26, 2011

docpotter said:
People with hard hearts , and a skeptical nature will never see or feel God until they are totally defeated by the world , then they might .

There are many reasons that people with hard hearts and skeptical natures come to God. It is God. He can and does use many different avenues to bring people to Him. Agreed?

How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

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