How Should We Separate Church and State

mkgal1

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Like this garden wall, religion has long been considered a persons private business beyond the reach of secular authority.

Just thought that was an interesting little anecdote from history.
Thank you for that---I do find it interesting.

I just wonder how divided that should be when we have instances like the protests in Charlottesville. Is the whole church expected to be cut off and excluded from speaking out against the attitudes of the protesters (chanting, "blood and soil" and "the Jews will never replace us")? Is that a "political" issue (like so many consider it).....or a place of intersection of faith and community?

To me.....it seems that we are to be "light in the darkness".....and "salt of the earth"....promoting hope and reconciliation. If we're going to be huddled in our churches and separated from all the others "out there".....I don't see how much of a witness we are going to be.
 
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thecolorsblend

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I agree.....but from what I understand the federal law is a bit ambiguous on where the line is drawn (in the U.S.).
In fact it's very clear. The problem is that a lot of nitwit Christian pastors seek tax exemption status... which in effect puts them in a subservient position to the government.

Churches are automatically exempt from taxes by virtue of being churches. They don't need to file 501c3 or other nonsense forms. Filing them is what allows the government to investigate these things.

Churches are automatically tax-exempt in the US.
 
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mkgal1

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Churches are automatically exempt from taxes by virtue of being churches. They don't need to file 501c3 or other nonsense forms. Filing them is what allows the government to investigate these things.

Churches are automatically tax-exempt in the US.
I don't know much about legal issues....but it seems to me if one of the largest Episcopal churches in the country skipped filing for a 501c and never paid taxes they would still find themselves under investigation (or worse....).
 
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mkgal1

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This pastor was on "The View" for a reason. The producers shopped for him.
I don't know what you mean by "shopped"....but it was probably because he had gone viral and caused a social media storm. Isn't that what genuine love ought to do? Shouldn't our faith cause people to be drawn in (like Whoppi was)?

**I expect a lot of people will consider this "tickling ears" and "worldliness" (and that, to me, is part of the problem....that separation again).
 
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thecolorsblend

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I don't know much about legal issues....but it seems to me if one of the largest Episcopal churches in the country skipped filing for a 501c and never paid taxes they would still find themselves under investigation (or worse....).
The law itself says otherwise.

Churches are automatically exempt from taxes in America. Anybody who says they must apply for 501c3 doesn't know what he's talking about.
 
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mark kennedy

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Thank you for that---I do find it interesting.

Glad you enjoyed it.

I just wonder how divided that should be when we have instances like the protests in Charlottesville. Is the whole church expected to be cut off and excluded from speaking out against the attitudes of the protesters (chanting, "blood and soil" and "the Jews will never replace us")? Is that a "political" issue (like so many consider it).....or a place of intersection of faith and community?

The church typically is politically neutral, Pastoral concerns being far more important. I remember hearing for the first time Martin Luther King jr. a sermon called, 'Dogs in the yard'. The idea was a rabid dog comes into your yard where your children play, there is an obligation to put the dog down. I have been disturbed by the rise of white nationalism in the alt right but hoped they were a negligible threat. Charlottesville changed that for me, I watched it that Saturday and couldn't believe it when that lunatic plunged that car into a crowd. I listened to those white nationalists describe their experiences there, it was beyond disturbing. The church could have done more to oppose the rise of Hitler and Mussolini, Catholics and Protestants alike too often failed their core convictions by not speaking out:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.​

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.​

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.​

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. (Martin Niemöller)​

To me.....it seems that we are to be "light in the darkness".....and "salt of the earth"....promoting hope and reconciliation. If we're going to be huddled in our churches and separated from all the others "out there".....I don't see how much of a witness we are going to be.

Aristotle described virtue in this way, there was excess and deficiency. In the balance there was virtue. One example was courage, too much and it's reckless, too little it's cowardice. The balance he said was so uncommon it was almost rare. One analogy he used was finding the center of a circle saying, not everyone can find the center but someone with skill can.

I think the is the key:

Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. (Eph. 5:21)​

Paul was clear, there is no difference. Husbands submit to their wives, wives to their husbands...etc. There is no difference between Jew and Greek and it makes sense, there is no difference between black and white. We as Christians do well to preach, practice and emphasis this core conviction.

I'll refrain from the sermon this could turn into, I'm not trying to preach this, only to make a point with it. When a Preacher preaches against prejudice and hate that is a matter of conscience and conviction, who am I to judge someone else's servant. We must stand against hate, in our doctrine and in our lives:

But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. (Col. 3:8-11)
First we must put out hate from our hearts, then we have the moral authority to preach against it. That's the issue, once a Preacher has he has every reason to stand against hate. If there are consequences let us remember, Jesus warned us in the sermon on the mount. There is a cost and a reward.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mkgal1

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Aristotle described virtue in this way, there was excess and deficiency. In the balance there was virtue. One example was courage, too much and it's reckless, too little it's cowardice. The balance he said was so uncommon it was almost rare. One analogy he used was finding the center of a circle saying, not everyone can find the center but someone with skill can.

I think the is the key:

Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. (Eph. 5:21)

Paul was clear, there is no difference. Husbands submit to their wives, wives to their husbands...etc. There is no difference between Jew and Greek and it makes sense, there is no difference between black and white. We as Christians do well to preach, practice and emphasis this core conviction.
I absolutely agree that's the key.

I think the whole issue can be divided up as the contrast between an attitude of either Tribalism (protect my OWN kind.....and ignore the others out there) or an attitude of "freedom for ALL humanity".

I listened to those white nationalists describe their experiences there, it was beyond disturbing. The church could have done more to oppose the rise of Hitler and Mussolini, Catholics and Protestants alike too often failed their core convictions by not speaking out:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. (Martin Niemöller)
I think this is what surprises me the most. We have history to look back on, and I feel as if we're (the church) repeating the same mistakes. I don't believe love is ever neutral or quiet--never standing by or crossing the street when others are being mistreated and harmed. The parable of the Good Samaritan seems to directly oppose that attitude.
 
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Brotherly Spirit

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The separation is about not having the government and a house of worship be one in the same. So you wouldn't have the government requiring people to believe/practice a certain religion or denomination. It's different for the people themselves to freely believe/practice as it relates to societal issues than the government by law.

I do think the Reverend somewhat is conflating his personal beliefs from a political perspective (ideology) and his religious beliefs from a religious perspective (theology). But if I put the progressive terminology aside, I agree about what he said. It doesn't make sense to have Confederate monuments on public property or use prominent Confederate people as public school names. We fought a civil war with the Confederacy which tried to separate from the Union, mainly did so for slavery. Yes, it's historically relevant to our history; but it's for us to be educated and not the sake of it.
 
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mkgal1

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The law itself says otherwise.

Churches are automatically exempt from taxes in America. Anybody who says they must apply for 501c3 doesn't know what he's talking about.
And you believe a person can just open up a bank account merely making a claim it's church funds? Like I posted earlier.....I am no expert on law, but I'm pretty sure banks would need to see 501c papers to open a bank account.
 
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thecolorsblend

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And you believe a person can just open up a bank account merely making a claim it's church funds? Like I posted earlier.....I am no expert on law, but I'm pretty sure banks would need to see 501c papers to open a bank account.
You're entitled to your own opinion. Even if it's wrong.
 
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Targaryen

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What's confusing to me is that voters look to their church leaders to help them decide what is or isn't "detrimental to broader society". That's what's sort of blown up recently. For example: all the social media memes that say things like, "Dear God, Why do you allow so much violence in our schools? Signed, Concerned Student; Dear Concerned Student, I am not allowed in schools any longer. Signed, God". I have heard subtle remarks like this coming from the pulpit

The Church has played a role in what shapes society, where it gets confusing is the myriad of voices,primarily on the ultra-conservative, heterodoxical right that uses prayer in school as a sort of a catchall to underscore their loss of total influence over broader society. That these groups generally forget or willingly ignore that society these days is pluralistic and cannot be morally directed solely from a certain perspective. Does the Church still have a role,absolutely. However, this does not give the Church carte blanche to dictate these morals to broader society when a great deal of people simply cannot conform 100% to dictates from the Church.

During this last election here in the U.S......I lost a few friends over the issue of how we are to treat our Muslim neighbors (my former friends had the attitude that "they need to leave"---neglecting to understand that Islam isn't a geographical place to go back to).

The issue of the repeal of DACA is another confusing issue (for instance). For those that aren't aware of what that means.....from what I understand....we have roughly 1.8 million people living in the U.S. that were brought here as children. Because of immigration laws that stated that citizenship is not available to *anyone* that has *ever* resided in the US illegally.....the path to legal citizenship in the country they grew up in was impossible for them. Our former president created something called Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals that allows for this group of eligible people to apply for reprieve from deportation. To me.....that goes along with what the Bible says about "welcoming the stranger".

If we are to "live like Christ".....we have to know what that looks like---and to me, the ideas of "guns for everyone" and "kick out those immigrants" don't look too much like what I read in the Bible.

The unfortunate part is, as I'm sure you've seen. Some that call themselves Christians do not believe this. They believe that the US is a Christian country only, that unless you really uphold the Gospel, specially to their own pre-determined ideal, you're either a potential troublemaker or worse. The Great Commandment, as we Anglicans know it is somehow either overlooked or outright ignored in the search to make their society more in line with what they are comfortable with.I agree with you it doesn't look much like the Bible or Christianity to me either, but as you've seen. Some choose to care only for what they want and wish to enforce.
 
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Phantasman

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I'm not posting this is the politics forum, because .....well, I guess because--according to what I've been told---I hold to "controversial theology" and I wanted to be able to speak openly. I saw this interview this morning and it's got me thinking. I agree that Jesus' agenda was definitely "political" (depending on how one defines that word)....so I wonder HOW we are to properly draw the lines between church and state and what that actually should mean. I'd love it if you could watch the interview prior to posting in order to understand the question I'm asking:

He's out of bounds. I wouldn't follow a person who tried to combine Christian thought with worldly thought. This was the same thing that happened with Constantine and the early catholics.

The message from Paul is to not follow worldly governors (Emperors, Kings, Presidents, etc.) It is listed by Paul (Ephesians 6:12), but removed by King James. Wonder why?

1599 Geneva Bible:
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, and against the worldly governors, the princes of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness, which are in the high places.

KJV (1604):
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Just another hidden mystery that he's not seeing. Typical.
 
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Targaryen

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He's out of bounds. I wouldn't follow a person who tried to combine Christian thought with worldly thought. This was the same thing that happened with Constantine and the early catholics.

The message from Paul is to not follow worldly governors (Emperors, Kings, Presidents, etc.) It is listed by Paul (Ephesians 6:12), but removed by King James. Wonder why?

1599 Geneva Bible:
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, and against the worldly governors, the princes of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness, which are in the high places.

KJV (1604):
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Just another hidden mystery that he's not seeing. Typical.

The mystery is your "belief" not the the Reverend's
 
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mkgal1

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The separation is about not having the government and a house of worship be one in the same. So you wouldn't have the government requiring people to believe/practice a certain religion or denomination
I think that's exactly what the idea was in the beginning of the U.S. (to avoid the whole state church scenario---compulsion of faith--that was happening in Europe)....but I'm referring specifically to the backlash that I've heard and read so much recently from people responding to just about anything that's an issue outside of vague spiritual messages. IOW.....these people seem to only be content when clergy "stays in their own lane" which is defined by this group as clergy being limited to sermons strictly referring to the Bible and not really addressing any current-day issues. What it seems to come down to is...to them, "political" means anything that is referring to today....and "spiritual" is referring to what happened in biblical times.

It's different for the people themselves to freely believe/practice as it relates to societal issues than the government by law.

I do think the Reverend somewhat is conflating his personal beliefs from a political perspective (ideology) and his religious beliefs from a religious perspective (theology).
....but can the two actually be divided? I think this is what I'm wresting with.
 
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mkgal1

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He's out of bounds. I wouldn't follow a person who tried to combine Christian thought with worldly thought.
So it's "worldly" (according to you...in your opinion/belief).....to speak out against hatred and oppression of a people group (that are divided only by the color of their skin)? And that's contrasted with "Christian thought" being what?
 
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Targaryen

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Brotherly Spirit said:
It's different for the people themselves to freely believe/practice as it relates to societal issues than the government by law.

I do think the Reverend somewhat is conflating his personal beliefs from a political perspective (ideology) and his religious beliefs from a religious perspective (theology).


....but can the two actually be divided? I think this is what I'm wresting with.

No, they can't. Personal theology and ideology make up every believer's values. Those that say otherwise are simply not being honest with themselves. Broader theology also is shaped by ideology, otherwise you wouldn't have the prosperity gospel nonsense or liberation theology present.

Of course, I'm sure we'll hear dissent on this....
 
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mkgal1

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No, they can't. Personal theology and ideology make up every believer's values. Those that say otherwise are simply not being honest with themselves. Broader theology also is shaped by ideology, otherwise you wouldn't have the prosperity gospel nonsense or liberation theology present.

Of course, I'm sure we'll hear dissent on this....
That's what I thought. I couldn't imagine trying to tear them apart.
 
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