How Should We Separate Church and State

[Douglas Hendrickson]

CHURCHES SHOULD BE FREE TO express their views and conduct their
affairs with a minimum of Federal restrictions. Every corporate body recives
some benefit from governmental services and in return should conduct
themselves as required by federal law.

INDIVIDUALS SHOULD BE FREE to express their views whatever they may be, and whoever the individual may be including preachers.

BTW, your Matthew 7:12 is a bit different than the usual.
"DO unto others ..." is the usual translation - NOT "think of others... ."
Do you really think it is about mere thinking and not doing?

 

[redleghunter]

I'm not posting this is the politics forum, because .....well, I guess because--according to what I've been told---I hold to "controversial theology" and I wanted to be able to speak openly. I saw this interview this morning and it's got me thinking. I agree that Jesus' agenda was definitely "political" (depending on how one defines that word)....so I wonder HOW we are to properly draw the lines between church and state and what that actually should mean. I'd love it if you could watch the interview prior to posting in order to understand the question I'm asking:

Are you a US citizen?

 

[mkgal1]

Are you a US citizen?

Yes... I am (I've never lived outside the U.S.). I admit I am pretty ignorant when it comes to politics in the U.S.

 

[Serving Zion]

I'm actually unclear--and wishing to understand better--where those lines are legally drawn.

Thank you, that was helpful to me Can you also explain why this matters to you? (ie, what is the purpose of this thread, what do you hope to gain or accomplish by it?).

 

[Halbhh]

I'm not posting this is the politics forum, because .....well, I guess because--according to what I've been told---I hold to "controversial theology" and I wanted to be able to speak openly. I saw this interview this morning and it's got me thinking. I agree that Jesus' agenda was definitely "political" (depending on how one defines that word)....so I wonder HOW we are to properly draw the lines between church and state and what that actually should mean. I'd love it if you could watch the interview prior to posting in order to understand the question I'm asking:

By constitutionally prohibiting the establishment of any state religion.

In order to preserve the sanctity of religion. And freedom of worship.

Religion funded or given power by the state is gradually corrupted.

 

[SkyWriting]

INDIVIDUALS SHOULD BE FREE to express their views whatever they may be, and whoever the individual may be including preachers.

BTW, your Matthew 7:12 is a bit different than the usual.
"DO unto others ..." is the usual translation - NOT "think of others... ."
Do you really think it is about mere thinking and not doing?

It's difficult to treat a lady kindly, if you think of them as a hore.

 

[SkyWriting]

INDIVIDUALS SHOULD BE FREE to express their views whatever they may be, and whoever the individual may be including preachers.

BTW, your Matthew 7:12 is a bit different than the usual.
"DO unto others ..." is the usual translation - NOT "think of others... ."
Do you really think it is about mere thinking and not doing?

Thinking so leads to doing so.

In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you.
This is the thinking part.
For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets. Enter through the narrow gate.
For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

James 2:8
Matthew 22:40
Luke 6:31
Romans 13:8
Romans 13:10
Galatians 5:14
James 2:8
Mark 12:29-34
Romans 13:8-10
Galatians 5:13,14

 

[SkyWriting]

INDIVIDUALS SHOULD BE FREE to express their views whatever they may be, and whoever the individual may be including preachers.

Yes, of course. But church members can boot them out.
I can't believe my uncle is allowed to preach twice in a row.
He has them fooled.

 

[buzuxi02]

The separation of state and church is relatively new. It is a product of the enlightenment era on one end and cultural marxism on the other. Obviously such a thing would have been unknown to Jesus as evidenced by the existence of the sanhedrin and the fact the two main Jewish faction's the Saducees and Pharisees were similar to two parties of the same nation. There was no dichotomy between political duties and civil holidays on the one hand and a separate boundary between religious life and holidays on the other. Both Church and State are to work synergistically, the state is to promote those things within their sphere of influence which helps in salvation.

 

[Targaryen]

Sorry I wasn't clear at all what I was trying to express.

I really admire Rev Rob Lee....and think he's doing just what the body of Christ ought to be doing (speaking out against hatred and bigotry....loving inclusively.....and not allowing the pressure of his congregation to change his behavior).

Good, cause that is less of a case of church and state then standing up for Christ like attitudes.

I hear so many people saying that "clergy shouldn't get involved in politics"....but maybe we need to first define what "politics" are? If speaking out against hatred and bigotry is "political" (which I don't believe it is).....then what is the function or scope of influence clergy is supposed to have.

You are mixing social issues, issues that face the broader context of the world we live in and politics. Let's be clear, social justice and politics are two different things. Should the church speak up about issues that face the world and do so strongly? Yes, it should, otherwise we are not only practising a dead faith, we are not being true to our commitments as Christians.

However, politics is different. Do you want your pastor, priest,bishop or whomever,telling you whom to vote for. That if you vote contrary to this candidate, that you are acting against God? That is the seperation of church and state. The church can be a moral force, and should be. However, it should not be using that force to influencing voters, or become a lobbying group that seeks to overturn laws or create new ones that may even be detrimental to broader society. Something which the so-called Christian Coalition in the US seems to either forget or ignore outright.

 

[Thedictator]

This guy and everyone on "The View" are Hypocrites, they are just fine with religion influencing government just as long as it is a Liberal issue or an issue they agree with. They would be jumping up and down and having a temper tantrum if this guy was advocating against Abortion, Homosexual marriage, or prayer in school. I think the Church should speak out against racism but this issue he is talking about is not racism, it is miss placed liberal guilt.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes... I am (I've never lived outside the U.S.). I admit I am pretty ignorant when it comes to politics in the U.S.

From US civics classes should make it clear there is nothing in our Constitution which says "separation of church and state."

There is the establishment clause which forbids the US government from forming an established church.

For example, during the founding we had several Christian denominations. The founders decided to break with the Continental Europe governments and not establish one of the American Christian denominations as the established church of America.

States were free however to establish their own churches.

Massachusetts in fact had an established church until 1829.

The debate today reference separation of church and state has to do with barring any faith or religion in the public life of Americans. A far cry from what was established in the 1st Amendment.

 

[redleghunter]

However, politics is different. Do you want your pastor, priest,bishop or whomever,telling you whom to vote for. That if you vote contrary to this candidate, that you are acting against God?

Who does that exactly? What you describe above is what labor unions do.

 

[Halbhh]

From US civics classes should make it clear there is nothing in our Constitution which says "separation of church and state."

There is the establishment clause which forbids the US government from forming an established church.

For example, during the founding we had several Christian denominations. The founders decided to break with the Continental Europe governments and not establish one of the American Christian denominations as the established church of America.

States were free however to establish their own churches.

Massachusetts in fact had an established church until 1829.

The debate today reference separation of church and state has to do with barring any faith or religion in the public life of Americans. A far cry from what was established in the 1st Amendment.

Can't you practice your faith? I've been able to be Christian in public in illinois and Texas. I can talk with strangers, and its perfectly legal. What about where you live?

 

[Targaryen]

Who does that exactly? What you describe above is what labor unions do.

Did I say that anyone did that. I'm saying that would be an example of church and state mingling

 

[redleghunter]

Can't you practice your faith? I've been able to be Christian in public in illinois and Texas. I can talk with strangers, and its perfectly legal. What about where you live?

I was outlining the ideological strategy of the radical left.

 

[redleghunter]

Did I say that anyone did that. I'm saying that would be an example of church and state mingling

Frankly why do you care if a bishop stands up and calls a politician wicked?

The bishop is a US citizen too.

Now of course he would suffer some consequences for using his pulpit to announce such. Maybe church censure and the ire of the congregation.

 

[Targaryen]

I was outlining the ideological strategy of the radical left.

Radical left....good grief.

Must this delve in to absolutely false equivalency?

 

[Targaryen]

Cause it shouldn't be done from the pulpit. That's when politics and church should NOT mix.

Which is what the thread is about. Pay attention.

 

[Halbhh]

To have a church officially established by Government would make that church seem inauthentic. Political instead of holy.