How should we read Paul?

[redleghunter]

I think we both made our positions known on this. I'm still sticking to Paul's doubt as I am sure you will deny.

You stopped reading Galatians 2 when it did not fit your eisegesis. That is akin to walking out of a Star Wars movie before the Death Star is destroyed, then going home to tell others "the rebels lost."

 

[redleghunter]

Acts 9:1-4New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9 Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, 2 and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; 4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
here we have Saul[Paul] breathing threats and murder, he gets his sheriff's badge and he's on his way to Damascus to bag some Christians...and lo and behold Paul has his Damascus road experience.
Where between "threats and murder" and supposedly meeting Jesus did Paul have an opportunity to repent?

Thank you for reminding me that Paul was blinded by the light.
Acts 26:15-16New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15 And I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;

If Paul had been blinded how could Jesus have appeared to him?

Wow you need to read Acts beyond your talking points. You are missing a lot.

I for one know what it's like to be a damned destitute sinner in need of a savior. I had absolutely no desire to serve God until he knocked me off my high horse and drove me to my knees. That's Grace my friend. Embrace it.

 

[nick notes]

Now you are being facetious. You should know well Paul exercised hyperbole to get a point across.

When Israel received the Law at the mountain, didn't they hear the voice of God himself?
Look at Paul's lie here.....
Galatians 3:19New American Standard Bible (NASB)
19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

So did YHWH give Israel the Law or just a bunch of Angels?
Paul was just trying to denigrate the Law because he was anti-law.

 

[redleghunter]

When Israel received the Law at the mountain, didn't they hear the voice of God himself?
Look at Paul's lie here.....
Galatians 3:19New American Standard Bible (NASB)
19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

So did YHWH give Israel the Law or just a bunch of Angels?
Paul was just trying to denigrate the Law because he was anti-law.

Wow, now I am understanding your misunderstanding of the NT. Who do you think the mediator was? The Angel of YHWH?

 

[Der Alte]

I have used christshepherd and ebalt5 on other forums and I can assure you I write my own articles.
But I see what you are doing. You are trying to find a way to attack me personally rather than arguing against my writings.

Did you also post as Zzyzk and have a discussion with christshepherd because you also copied some of what Z said.

 

[Der Alte]

When Israel received the Law at the mountain, didn't they hear the voice of God himself?
Look at Paul's lie here.....
Galatians 3:19New American Standard Bible (NASB)
19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

So did YHWH give Israel the Law or just a bunch of Angels?
Paul was just trying to denigrate the Law because he was anti-law.

While you are combing through the NT desperately, frantically trying to find errors you should do a little language study too. The word translated "through" in your proof text is "dia" and it always means "the channel of an act; through" not the source or originator! Paul could be alluding to Deut 3:2.

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Psalms 68:17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. ​

 

[Strong in Him]

If Paul had been blinded how could Jesus have appeared to him?

Jesus need not have appeared in the image of a person. Scripture says that Paul saw a bright light and heard a voice.

When Moses came down from Mount Sinai, his face was gleaming and was so bright the Israelites could not look at him. When Ezekiel saw a vision of God, he was like a bright light, Ezekiel 1:4, 26-28. When the Lord led the Israelites in the wilderness he appeared as a pillar of fire. It seems to me that God appeared to the Jews as fire or bright light - this was how he revealed himself. So Paul says "who are you, Lord? Then Jesus spoke and identified himself.
Though it might also have taken a few minutes for Paul to go blind, and he might have seen an image of Jesus just before he did so.

 

[nick notes]

I looked but could not find a response to my post to you reference the 613 laws. Which can be grouped as the Moral law, Civil/Judicial law, and Ceremonial law. Do you keep all of the above? If not which ones are no longer in effect without a temple?

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm Here is a list of the 613 commandments from the Torah. The list is grouped by categories but the categories are the creation of the website. I do not know of any categories such as Moral law, Civil/Judicial law, and Ceremonial law. Do you have a Scriptural passage that lays out these categories or are these categories the creation of Christian apologists?

 

[nick notes]

The NT was written in Greek.
Anyone who h I can't possibly as knowledge of the language and can tell us what the original texts mean is to be admired. You seem to dismiss what that forummer was saying, even though he will know what he is talking about

I didn't mean to dismiss anyone. What point was he trying to make?

 

[nick notes]

Wow you need to read Acts beyond your talking points. You are missing a lot.

I for one know what it's like to be a damned destitute sinner in need of a savior. I had absolutely no desire to serve God until he knocked me off my high horse and drove me to my knees. That's Grace my friend. Embrace it.

I'm willing to discuss a relevant topic. But in the future I can't respond to what I characterize as a religious advertisement.

 

[nick notes]

Did you also post as Zzyzk and have a discussion with christshepherd because you also copied some of what Z said.

That is not possible unless I quoted ZZYZK who I don't remember in order to draw attention to his words and comment on them. Or maybe he copied from me. In the past I never objected if those who agreed with me copied my work for their own purpose.

 

[nick notes]

While you are combing through the NT desperately, frantically trying to find errors you should do a little language study too. The word translated "through" in your proof text is "dia" and it always means "the channel of an act; through" not the source or originator! Paul could be alluding to Deut 3:2.

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Psalms 68:17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. ​

Then God spoke all these words, saying, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
The way I see it...God spoke.
No angels involved.

 

[Der Alte]

Then God spoke all these words, saying, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
The way I see it...God spoke.
No angels involved.

You said Paul was lying, was Moses and David lying in these verses?

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Psalms 68:17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. ​

 

[nick notes]

You said Paul was lying, was Moses and David lying in these verses?

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Psalms 68:17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. ​

There is no doubt that God has thousands of angels. So what? How is that relevant?
Exodus 19:16-19King James Version (KJV)
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lorddescended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
Can there be any doubt that YHWH gave Israel the law without any help from angels?

 

[redleghunter]

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm Here is a list of the 613 commandments from the Torah. The list is grouped by categories but the categories are the creation of the website. I do not know of any categories such as Moral law, Civil/Judicial law, and Ceremonial law. Do you have a Scriptural passage that lays out these categories or are these categories the creation of Christian apologists?

You must follow the entire law. How do you follow the civil and ceremonial laws completely? There are no Mulligans so to speak. Please explain?

For example where do you take your heave offerings?

What theocratic court do you bring issues of adultery and the bitter water?

 

[Der Alte]

. . .
IMO Paul was dishonest when he fabricated his Anti-Law theology.
Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, " BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Galatians 3:11
Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, " THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Paul used the above slogan “”THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."“
as the cornerstone of his theology that man is saved by faith and not by works.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9
Paul got this slogan from Habakkuk 2:4
Habakkuk 2:4 NAS
"Behold, as for the proud one,His soul is not right within him;But the righteous will live by his faith.
I checked several Bible versions and each one says “”HIS”” Faith, and not Faith as Paul quotes it. That’s a clue that Paul has misused this Scripture at Habakkuk 2:4
In the NIV study Bible Habakkuk 2:4 has a margin note of “’Faithfulness”
The Harper Collins Study Bible has a margin note of “”Faithfulness”’
Although the words are similar, Faith is not the same as Faithfulness.
Does the righteous man live by his faithfulness to the Law?
The Jewish Publication Society has ..” The righteous man is rewarded with life for his Fidelity at Habakkuk 2:4
It is interesting to note that in the King James Bible, “Faith” is only used twice in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Strongs # 530 is the word used for faith at Habakkuk 2:4 On only one occasion, Hab 2:4, in the KJV is it translated as Faith. The word is used 49 times and the most popular translation is “Faithfulness”
The Brown- Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon has the meaning of #530 as “firmness, steadfastness, fidelity”
IMO, Paul was dishonest in his use of ““”THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."“

Well I guess the native Hebrew speakers who translated the LXX and the JPS were also dishonest because neither says "faithfulness."

JPS Habakkuk 2:4 If he should draw back, my soul has no pleasure in him: but the just shall live by my faith.
LXX Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him; but the righteous shall live by his faith​

You claim "'The Jewish Publication Society has ..' The righteous man is rewarded with life for his Fidelity at Habakkuk 2:4" My JPS has "the just shall live by my faith." The online JPS at http://www.breslov.com/ref/Habakkuk2.htm
has "the righteous shall live by his faith."

 

[Der Alte]

There is no doubt that God has thousands of angels. So what? How is that relevant?
Exodus 19:16-19King James Version (KJV)
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lorddescended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
Can there be any doubt that YHWH gave Israel the law without any help from angels?

You just see your out-of-context proof texts and ignore everything that does not fit your agenda, right? Stretching the truth here, Paul did not say the angels helped God. "Angel" means messenger!

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he [YHWH] came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Psalms 68:17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. ​

 

[nick notes]

You must follow the entire law. How do you follow the civil and ceremonial laws completely? There are no Mulligans so to speak. Please explain?

For example where do you take your heave offerings?

What theocratic court do you bring issues of adultery and the bitter water?

Are you asking about my religious practices?
Let's stick to issues. In the big picture my religious life is of little consequence to anyone but me and my family.
Engage me at the big picture level.

 

[nick notes]

Well I guess the native Hebrew speakers who translated the LXX and the JPS were also dishonest because neither says "faithfulness."

JPS Habakkuk 2:4 If he should draw back, my soul has no pleasure in him: but the just shall live by my faith.
LXX Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him; but the righteous shall live by his faith​

You claim "'The Jewish Publication Society has ..' The righteous man is rewarded with life for his Fidelity at Habakkuk 2:4" My JPS has "the just shall live by my faith." The online JPS at http://www.breslov.com/ref/Habakkuk2.htm
has "the righteous shall live by his faith."

My copy of the JPS reads..” The righteous man is rewarded with life for his Fidelity." I have a copy of the volume. Do you? Or do you get your information from an Apologist web page?
The LXX is a Greek version of the Torah which was translated by the 70. The 70 did not translate the prophets and these Greek writings are not inspired text.

Since Late Antiquity, once attributed to a Council of Jamnia, mainstream rabbinic Judaism rejected the Septuagint as valid Jewish scriptural texts. Several reasons have been given for this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint

 

[nick notes]

You just see your out-of-context proof texts and ignore everything that does not fit your agenda, right? Stretching the truth here, Paul did not say the angels helped God. "Angel" means messenger!

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he [YHWH] came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Psalms 68:17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. ​

Just keep on trying to muddy the waters because you know that Paul lied about who gave the Torah to Israel.
Paul said at Galatians 3:19......
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

At Exodus 20....
And God spake all these words, saying,
I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me

God himself gave Israel the Law...the Law was not ordained by Angels.

Paul lied to denigrate the Law trying to fool gentiles into thinking the law was of lesser value because it was only ordained by angels.