How should we read Paul?

[nick notes]

Frankly you are not an apostle who planted more churches than the other apostles combined.

No I haven't planted any churches. Nor do I go walking in the desert at midday on a hot sunny day where one can easily get sun stroke and hallucinate all manner of things.

 

[redleghunter]

IMO that mature Christian and an immature Christian argument is a canard to explain away problems.
Did I say anything about Paul that I did not back up with Scripture?

Which of the scriptures you quoted do you believe are inspired by the Holy Spirit? Which ones did you provide a suitable exegesis for as @Der Alter did in his posts.

You began your postings with an assertion Paul was a false prophet and found snippets to fuel your eisegesis.

I can read the Washington Post for such "investigative reporting."

What does your canon of Inspired Scriptures look like? I get it you see the TaNaKh as inspired however what from B'rit Chadashah do you consider inspired Scriptures?

 

[redleghunter]

Read Galatians...I'm sure you can find some anti-law quotes by Paul.

Out of context I'm sure. Please review the epistles of Peter and John as well. Same Gospel of Grace preached there.

 

[nick notes]

Which of the scriptures you quoted do you believe are inspired by the Holy Spirit? Which ones did you provide a suitable exegesis for as @Der Alter did in his posts.

You began your postings with an assertion Paul was a false prophet and found snippets to fuel your eisegesis.

I can read the Washington Post for such "investigative reporting."

What does your canon of Inspired Scriptures look like? I get it you see the TaNaKh as inspired however what from B'rit Chadashah do you consider inspired Scriptures?

To answer all your questions would require a book. You may have to wait for the book and maybe the movie.
I try to answer specifics...I can't answer general questions that require lengthy answers to answer properly.


BTW..Did I write that Paul was a false prophet? I remember calling him a murderer but I provided scriptural backing.
Can you answer if I called Paul a false prophet?

 

[nick notes]

Out of context I'm sure. Please review the epistles of Peter and John as well. Same Gospel of Grace preached there.

Maybe you can read James and see how he supports the Law.

 

[redleghunter]

I don't know Michael Rood.
But I do know there are problems with Matthew's Gospel.
For Example........
In Matthew's Gospel, there is a passage, which contains several proofs that Matthew's Gospel contains Fiction.
Matthew 28:11-15 (New American Standard Bible)

11Now while they were on their way, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all that had happened.

12And when they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers,

13and said, "You are to say, 'His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep.'

14"And if this should come to the governor's ears, we will win him over and keep you out of trouble."

15And they took the money and did as they had been instructed; and this story was widely spread among the Jews, and is to this day.


List of Proofs.
Here is my list of proofs.
1) The Jewish Priests and Elders tell the guards to say "" 'His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep."" This is a ridiculous story to tell. Everyone knows that if the guards were asleep they would be unconscious and not know what happened. The ruling Jewish Sanhedrin was 71 members, seventy elders and the High Priest reputed to be amongst the wisest men. It is not believable that these very smart Jews would concoct such a dumb story.

2) In the Roman world, the penalty for sleeping while on guard duty was death. It is doubtful that even with a "good word" from the High Priest [Matthew 28:14] to the Roman Governor, he would have suspended the death sentence. It is not believable that the guards would have lied and said they were sleeping and subject themselves to the death penalty. Can't spend money if you're dead.

3) The Priests and Elders were very religious men. According to Jesus they were very careful about observing every point of the law, but were missing the spirit of the Law. Matthew 23:23-23-24 It is not believable that these religious men would suborn false witness and commit such a grave sin.

4)The Roman Governor would never believe such a dumb story ""'His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep." One did not get to rule an entire country by being an idiot.

5) This conspiracy to tell this lie, that the disciples stole the body, involves, the guards, the Jewish leadership, and even the office of the Roman Governor. It is not believable that a conspiracy based on such a poor lie would have held together. But that is what Matthew asks his readers to believe. "And they took the money and did as they had been instructed; and this story was widely spread among the Jews, and is to this day." Matthew 28:15 Matthew would have his readers believe the conspiracy lasted for years after the event. Not believable.

6) We have the witness of the four gospels. But only Matthew's gospel mentions a guard on the tomb. Not even a hint from the other gospels. The guard on the tomb is a vital element of the Jesus resurrection story. Had the guard existed the other gospel writers would have most assuredly mentioned it. To fail to mention such an important aspect of the story would be to miss the point of the story. Jesus was in the tomb, the guard was on duty, the tomb was now empty, so Jesus must have resurrected. The other gospel writers didn't mention the guard because this was Matthew's fiction.

This is fiction? How so? Is this account so far fetched as say a man dead three days rising from the dead with a glorified Body?

Or a sea parted ?

If Pilate executed the guards and could not produce a body, would that not lend credibility to the proclamation Jesus was risen?

Shall I note the OT accounts of people making unwise and illogical decisions at the Will of God? Pharaoh comes to mind. I mean what idiot would not have let the Hebrews go after the first 3 plagues?

What does your abridged NT look like. It may help in these discussions to know.

 

[redleghunter]

No I haven't planted any churches. Nor do I go walking in the desert at midday on a hot sunny day where one can easily get sun stroke and hallucinate all manner of things.

Interesting. Then why should anyone on CF consider any of your accusations against an apostle of Jesus Christ?

 

[nick notes]

Out of context I'm sure. Please review the epistles of Peter and John as well. Same Gospel of Grace preached there.

Here is a little article I wrote a few years ago about Paul.
IMO Paul was dishonest when he fabricated his Anti-Law theology.

Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, " BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Galatians 3:11
Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, " THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Paul used the above slogan “”THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."“
as the cornerstone of his theology that man is saved by faith and not by works.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9


Paul got this slogan from Habakkuk 2:4


Habakkuk 2:4 NAS
"Behold, as for the proud one,His soul is not right within him;But the righteous will live by his faith.

I checked several Bible versions and each one says “”HIS”” Faith, and not Faith as Paul quotes it. That’s a clue that Paul has misused this Scripture at Habakkuk 2:4

In the NIV study Bible Habakkuk 2:4 has a margin note of “’Faithfulness”
The Harper Collins Study Bible has a margin note of “”Faithfulness”’

Although the words are similar, Faith is not the same as Faithfulness.
Does the righteous man live by his faithfulness to the Law?

The Jewish Publication Society has ..” The righteous man is rewarded with life for his Fidelity at Habakkuk 2:4

It is interesting to note that in the King James Bible, “Faith” is only used twice in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Strongs # 530 is the word used for faith at Habakkuk 2:4 On only one occasion, Hab 2:4, in the KJV is it translated as Faith. The word is used 49 times and the most popular translation is “Faithfulness”
The Brown- Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon has the meaning of #530 as “firmness, steadfastness, fidelity”

IMO, Paul was dishonest in his use of ““”THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."“

 

[redleghunter]

To answer all your questions would require a book. You may have to wait for the book and maybe the movie.
I try to answer specifics...I can't answer general questions that require lengthy answers to answer properly.


BTW..Did I write that Paul was a false prophet? I remember calling him a murderer but I provided scriptural backing.
Can you answer if I called Paul a false prophet?

Yes you stated Paul sinned against the Holy Spirit.

You also denied his road to Damascus vision was valid.

You then told us he dumped the Law.

By the above accusations you deem Paul a false prophet.

 

[nick notes]

Interesting. Then why should anyone on CF consider any of your accusations against an apostle of Jesus Christ?

I try very diligently to back up my observations with Scripture.

 

[redleghunter]

Maybe you can read James and see how he supports the Law.

James 2:

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

 

[nick notes]

Yes you stated Paul sinned against the Holy Spirit.

You also denied his road to Damascus vision was valid.

You then told us he dumped the Law.

By the above accusations you deem Paul a false prophet.

But you put words in my mouth when you said I said Paul was a false prophet.
Yes...I have pointed out problems with Paul's testimony.

 

[redleghunter]

Here is a little article I wrote a few years ago about Paul.
IMO Paul was dishonest when he fabricated his Anti-Law theology.

Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, " BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Galatians 3:11
Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, " THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Paul used the above slogan “”THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."“
as the cornerstone of his theology that man is saved by faith and not by works.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9


Paul got this slogan from Habakkuk 2:4


Habakkuk 2:4 NAS
"Behold, as for the proud one,His soul is not right within him;But the righteous will live by his faith.

I checked several Bible versions and each one says “”HIS”” Faith, and not Faith as Paul quotes it. That’s a clue that Paul has misused this Scripture at Habakkuk 2:4

In the NIV study Bible Habakkuk 2:4 has a margin note of “’Faithfulness”
The Harper Collins Study Bible has a margin note of “”Faithfulness”’

Although the words are similar, Faith is not the same as Faithfulness.
Does the righteous man live by his faithfulness to the Law?

The Jewish Publication Society has ..” The righteous man is rewarded with life for his Fidelity at Habakkuk 2:4

It is interesting to note that in the King James Bible, “Faith” is only used twice in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Strongs # 530 is the word used for faith at Habakkuk 2:4 On only one occasion, Hab 2:4, in the KJV is it translated as Faith. The word is used 49 times and the most popular translation is “Faithfulness”
The Brown- Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon has the meaning of #530 as “firmness, steadfastness, fidelity”

IMO, Paul was dishonest in his use of ““”THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."“

Which works save us?

 

[redleghunter]

I try very diligently to back up my observations with Scripture.

Yes but anyone can use scriptures for their own purpose. See Matthew 4.

 

[nick notes]

This is fiction? How so? Is this account so far fetched as say a man dead three days rising from the dead with a glorified Body?

Or a sea parted ?

If Pilate executed the guards and could not produce a body, would that not lend credibility to the proclamation Jesus was risen?

Shall I note the OT accounts of people making unwise and illogical decisions at the Will of God? Pharaoh comes to mind. I mean what idiot would not have let the Hebrews go after the first 3 plagues?

What does your abridged NT look like. It may help in these discussions to know.

Did Pilate need to produce a body? If a body is missing does it mean that the corpse resurrected or does it mean someone moved the body?

Pharaoh was stubborn just as many people today cling to their beliefs in spite of overwhelming evidence that they are wrong.

Forgive me but my wife is calling me to bed. I'm signing off

 

[redleghunter]

But you put words in my mouth when you said I said Paul was a false prophet.
Yes...I have pointed out problems with Paul's testimony.

What an understatement.

What do you call someone meeting your accusations against Paul?

Better yet, what does the Bible tells us about someone who lies, deceives and trangresses the Law? You have accused Paul of all of the above.

 

[jerry kelso]

Maybe you can read James and see how he supports the Law.

nick notes,

The book of James is not about the law keeping of Moses if that is what you are insinuating.
Martin Luther thought that and wanted it out of the canon of scripture. He was wrong and if that is what you think, then you are wrong.
Feel free to explain if this is what you mean and why you think that and I'll be glad to talk to you about it. Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Here is a little article I wrote a few years ago about Paul.
IMO Paul was dishonest when he fabricated his Anti-Law theology.

Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, " BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Galatians 3:11
Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, " THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Paul used the above slogan “”THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."“
as the cornerstone of his theology that man is saved by faith and not by works.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9


Paul got this slogan from Habakkuk 2:4


Habakkuk 2:4 NAS
"Behold, as for the proud one,His soul is not right within him;But the righteous will live by his faith.

I checked several Bible versions and each one says “”HIS”” Faith, and not Faith as Paul quotes it. That’s a clue that Paul has misused this Scripture at Habakkuk 2:4

In the NIV study Bible Habakkuk 2:4 has a margin note of “’Faithfulness”
The Harper Collins Study Bible has a margin note of “”Faithfulness”’

Although the words are similar, Faith is not the same as Faithfulness.
Does the righteous man live by his faithfulness to the Law?

The Jewish Publication Society has ..” The righteous man is rewarded with life for his Fidelity at Habakkuk 2:4

It is interesting to note that in the King James Bible, “Faith” is only used twice in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Strongs # 530 is the word used for faith at Habakkuk 2:4 On only one occasion, Hab 2:4, in the KJV is it translated as Faith. The word is used 49 times and the most popular translation is “Faithfulness”
The Brown- Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon has the meaning of #530 as “firmness, steadfastness, fidelity”

IMO, Paul was dishonest in his use of ““”THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."“

nicknotes,

1. Fabricating anti-law theology?
Paul wasn't anti-law but he was opposed to the keeping of the Mosaic law because they were under the new covenant law.

2. Righteous men were always to live by faith. But the revelation in each age was different. Men were always saved by grace through faith and not keeping the law whether in old or new testament times.

3. In Romans Paul made the distinction of the righteousness of the law which was the law of Moses. The man that doeth them shall live in them. They had to do to attain.

4. The righteousness by faith under the new covenant is we do because of who we are in Christ and the power of his finished work through the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection.

5. So being righteous by faith had a different connotation because of a different revelation of the redemptive picture in Moses day.

6. The Mosaic Ethic was different than the New Covenant and had weaknesses and the New Covenant was built on better promises. If one does not learn the full understanding of the differences of the two covenants they can become confused and render the scripture wrong.

7. So Paul wasn't being dishonest about his rendering of the scripture. The fact is that Paul knew the old covenant and was given new revelation about the mystery of the church and other things including the new covenant which no man taught him.
Because he understood the weaknesses of the old Covenant and the better promises of the new covenant is why Peter said Paul stated things hard to be understood.

8. Romans 1:17 was about the just living by faith and the reason is found in verse 18; For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.
Verse 19; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them for God hath shewed unto them.
And it goes on to say about understanding God through creation and that they knew God and yet didn't retain them in their memory.
So the context of the righteousness of the law of Moses and the righteousness of faith through the new covenant are two different things.
The just living by faith of believing in God and living for him was the same principle in the light of upholding the truth in every age.
So you are confusing the two issues.

9. As far as Galatians 3:11 Paul is talking about the law of Moses by which no man could be justified in being saved for no one is saved or justified by works. Only Christ can stamp approval on a sinner as justified. The work in salvation is a fruit and an act of obedience not the act to merit.

10. The Just shall live by faith is the faith of righteousness and not by the righteousness of the Mosaic law.

11. The law of Moses was not by faith. It could only state the commandment but had no power to help a person to perform the commandment. Only the power of the endless life of Christ can do this and this was a better promise.

12. The reason Moses law of righteousness was not of faith is because they mostly would end up doing things in their own strength and produce self effort. The reason for this is because Romans 7 says the Law which was the law of Moses was holy and good but the law of sin and death took advantage of it and made them live to the frailty of man which produced sin.

13. This is why in verse 13 of Galatians 3 he said Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law being made a curse for us.

14. One has to get a bigger picture of the real meaning of the passages and not merely what it seems it is saying that one may think is a slam dunk when it is not. Plain statements have contexts too that have to be weighed out as well. Jerry Kelso

 

[Righttruth]

Not so. Unless you discount Antioch as a false church:


Acts 13: King James Version (KJV)
13 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

All these after Paul was admitted to Jerusalem Church. How many letters he wrote before that? Nothing.

 

[redleghunter]

All these after Paul was admitted to Jerusalem Church. How many letters he wrote before that? Nothing.

The above does not help out your case.