How should we read Paul?

[nick notes]

This is my post that you quoted.

"No, unlike you I looked up the definition of the word and I gave scriptural examples where it is used in the sense of understand. I await your evidence.
From Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich [BAG] Lexicon of NT Greek. Please note all the references provided for the definition "understand."

ἀκούω akouo
7. understand ( Teles p. 47, 12; Galen : CMG Suppl. I p. 12, 29; Aelian , V.H. 13, 46; Apollon. Dysc. , Gramm. Gr. II 2 p. 424, 5 U. ajkouvein = sunievnai tw`n hjkousmevnwn ; Sext. Emp. , Math. 1, 37 to; mh; pavnta" pavntwn ajkouvein ; Julian , Orat. 4 p. 147 A ; PGM 3, 453 ajkouvsei" ta; o[rnea lalou`nta ; Philo , Leg. All. 2, 35) abs. (Is 36:11 ) 1 Cor 14:2 . Perh. also Mk 4:33 ( s. 5 above, and cf. Epict. 1, 29, 66
t. dunamevnoi" aujta; ajkou`sai ). W. acc. to;n novmon understand the law Gal 4:21 ; perh. Ac 22:9 ; 26:14 ( s. 1b a above) belong here. Cf. also the play on words (1a above) ajkouvonte" oujk ajkouvousin Mt 13:13 . ajkouvw is occasionally used as a perfective present: I hear = I have heard (so as early as Il. 24, 543; Aristoph. , Frogs 426; X. , An. 2, 5, 13, Mem. 2, 4, 1; 3, 5, 26; Pla. , Rep. 583 D ; Theocr. 15, 23) Lk 9:9 ; 1 Cor 11:18 ; 2 Th 3:11 . Bl-D. §322. M-M. B. 1037; 1339.
BAG Online"​

This is your reply. What's going on here?

I am so impressed by your knowledge of Greek.

 

[ewq1938]

If I were out on a desert road on a hot sunny day and I said Jesus appeared to me and spoke to me would you believe me?
I doubt it...
So why should anyone believe Paul?

Why did the disciples? Obviously they knew if Paul was true of not. You are just plain wrong and have let Jews influence you too much against the Apostles of Christ.

 

[Der Alte]

If you know the Bible do your own research on the Law. [the Torah], the Sabbath, the Festivals, Circumcision,
As for Stephen, he made a very serious error for a man who supposedly was in the spirit...

Once again you ignore my response and come back with a different argument. But the Sabbath was given exclusively to the children if Israel.

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Leviticus 24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant. ​

How would gentile Christians in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae, Thessalonika and other NT places keep "the Law. [the Torah], the Sabbath, the Festivals, Circumcision," when there is no record that the apostles ever took or taught it to gentiles Christians in those places? The Jerusalem council, including Peter and James, said twice that gentiles were not required to circumcise and keep the law, Acts 15:24, Acts 21:24-25

 

[nick notes]

Why did the disciples? Obviously they knew if Paul was true of not. You are just plain wrong and have let Jews influence you too much against the Apostles of Christ.

Paul wrote ...but the Apostles did not write about Paul. So it is difficult to know what the Apostles thought of Paul.
There are no Jews influencing me or even writing or speaking to me.

 

[Der Alte]

I am so impressed by your knowledge of Greek.

In other words you blow off my quote from the Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich lexicon of NT Greek, which cites several sources showing that the Greek word akouo also means "understand," with a sarcastic remark. And I assume that we can expect more heterodox anti-Paul spam.

 

[nick notes]

Once again you ignore my response and come back with a different argument. But the Sabbath was given exclusively to the children if Israel.

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Leviticus 24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant. ​

How would gentile Christians in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae, Thessalonika and other NT places keep "the Law. [the Torah], the Sabbath, the Festivals, Circumcision," when there is no record that the apostles ever took or taught it to gentiles Christians in those places? The Jerusalem council, including Peter and James, said twice that gentiles were not required to circumcise and keep the law, Acts 15:24, Acts 21:24-25

Luke 23:55-56New American Standard Bible (NASB)
55 Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. 56 Then they returned andprepared spices and perfumes.
And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

I wonder why these women who knew Jesus "on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment."
Also interesting is that this is from Luke's Gospel and he was a buddy of Paul.

 

[ewq1938]

Luke 23:55-56New American Standard Bible (NASB)
55 Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. 56 Then they returned andprepared spices and perfumes.
And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

I wonder why these women who knew Jesus "on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment."
Also interesting is that this is from Luke's Gospel and he was a buddy of Paul.

Why is it interesting since they are Jews under the old covenant. After Christ rose from the dead things changed and they didn't keep the Saturday Sabbath anymore.

 

[nick notes]

In other words you blow off my quote from the Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich lexicon of NT Greek, which cites several sources showing that the Greek word akouo also means "understand," with a sarcastic remark. And I assume that we can expect more heterodox anti-Paul spam.

Yes...I'm blowing off Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich because you are trying to waste my time with your Greek lexicon.

 

[nick notes]

Why is it interesting since they are Jews under the old covenant. After Christ rose from the dead things changed and they didn't keep the Saturday Sabbath anymore.

The women were still Jews...weren't they? Descendants of Israel?
Exodus 31:13
“But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.

Did God change his mind about observing his Sabbaths throughout their generations?

 

[ewq1938]

The women were still Jews...weren't they? Descendants of Israel?

Re-read my post and you will see these questions make no sense.

Exodus 31:13

“But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.

Did God change his mind about observing his Sabbaths throughout their generations?

How to honor the Sabbath changed which is why Christianity does not and has not celebrated the Saturday Sabbath. Only fringe cults keep the Jewish Sabbath and they only keep it in an easy way and not according to how the Jews had to. Most "Sabbath keepers" are fakers because they don't keep it according to all the original rules.

 

[redleghunter]

If you received a message from Jesus himself would you find it necessary to check out Jesus' message with other men?
I doubt it.....IMO Paul definitely expressed doubt in his Gospel.

There was no doubt as I posted the corresponding verses which put the dialogue within context.

Paul Lied and Sinned Against the Holy Spirit.
In Acts Chapter 15 the Leaders of the New Christian Church met to make some rules.
The following Scripture is their ruling.

Acts 15:28-29New American Standard Bible (NASB)
28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

Notice that the Holy Spirit complied with this ruling.
Also notice that one of the rulings by the Leaders and the Holy Spirit was to abstain from things sacrificed to idols.

BTW Paul was present at this meeting and surely was aware of this ruling.
But look what Paul preached.

1 Timothy 4:4-5New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.


1 Corinthians 8:4-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?

After reading this passage by Paul in first Corinthians isn't it obvious that Paul is advocating eating food sacrificed to idols in contradiction of the command by the Holy Spirit and the Leaders of the Church?

Isn't this an intentional sin against the Holy Spirit?

No it is not a sin against the Holy Spirit. Note well Paul's discussion of conscience. He is clearly showing the difference between a mature Christian and an immature Christian. At the time of the Jerusalem council the Gentile churches were young and immature. The council gave them basic instructions to avoid sinful situations.

I will note you have launched a serious judgement against Paul a brother in Christ.

Do you view Paul as a false prophet?

 

[redleghunter]

Are you referring to Paul the murderer who was an accomplice in the murder of Stephen?
Outline of Paul’s murderous career.

Acts 7:58 (New American Standard Bible)
When they had driven him [Stephen] out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. [Paul]
This is proof that Paul was a co-conspirator in the murder of Stephen. He was guilty of Felony murder.

And it was definitely murder.
John 18:31 (New American Standard Bible)
31So Pilate said to them, "Take Him yourselves, and judge Him according to your law." The Jews said to him, "We are not permitted to put anyone to death,"

Paul and his associates did not have a legal right to put Stephen to death. It was murder.

Acts 8:1 (New American Standard Bible)

Saul [Paul] was in hearty agreement with putting him [Stephen] to death.

Acts 22:20 (New American Standard Bible)
20'And when the blood of Your witness Stephen was being shed, I also was standing by approving, and watching out for the coats of those who were slaying him.'

Paul went on to continue murdering and bragged about it.
Acts 22:4 (New American Standard Bible)
I persecuted this Way to the death

Acts 26:10 (New American Standard Bible)
"And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, but also when they were being put to death I cast my vote against them.

You left out the part of the account where Paul is driven to his knees in repentance. We know his murderous past by his own confession on several occasions. Are you questioning Paul's repentance and God's Grace towards him?

 

[redleghunter]

His work before coming to Jerusalem didn't get much recognition compared to what he got after he was accepted by the apostles though with reluctance.

Not so. Unless you discount Antioch as a false church:


Acts 13: King James Version (KJV)
13 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

 

[nick notes]

Re-read my post and you will see these questions make no sense.



How to honor the Sabbath changed which is why Christianity does not and has not celebrated the Saturday Sabbath. Only fringe cults keep the Jewish Sabbath and they only keep it in an easy way and not according to how the Jews had to. Most "Sabbath keepers" are fakers because they don't keep it according to all the original rules.

I agree there are many fakers who say they keep the law but do not.
At Acts 15, at the Jerusalem council, the Apostles commanded Gentiles to abstain from blood. But I have eaten with many fellow Christians who chow down on their bloody juicy steaks without a thought to only eating meat that has been properly bled out.
In Acts we are given a glimpse of the early church.
Acts 4:32-35New American Standard Bible (NASB)
32 And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. 33 And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. 34 For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houseswould sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales 35 and lay them at the apostles’ feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.

I doubt you will find many Christian churches like this early church. What do you think?

 

[redleghunter]

Lets Take a Closer Look At Paul

Those who are familiar with police tactics know that the Police will ask a suspect to tell his story several times. They know that a liar will elaborate and improve his story with each retelling.

A good story gets better with each retelling. Let's see how Paul elaborates and improves his story.
Paul tells the story of his Damascus road experience three times in Acts. I will just show the supposed words of Jesus in each telling of the story.

Acts 9 Story.....
“Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
“I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, 6 but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.”

In this telling, Jesus doesn't have much to say.

Acts 22 Story....
‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’
‘I am Jesus the Nazarene, whom you are persecuting.’
‘Get up and go on into Damascus, and there you will be told of all that has been appointed for you to do.’

In this telling Paul makes some small improvements. Now it is Jesus the Nazarene rather than just Jesus. Now Paul has been APPOINTED. Now he mentions the city, Damascus.

Acts 26 Story...by now Paul has really makes improvements in his story.
‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

Wow! Paul has greatly improved the story. In the earlier versions Jesus just spoke...but now he APPEARED to Paul. I'm sure you can see how a simple story has been inflated with each retelling.


2Corinthians 12:16
""But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.""

What does your Biblical canon look like? Which Gospel accounts are accurate and which are not?

Or do you subscribe to the Michael Rood version that only portions of Matthew are inspired?

 

[nick notes]

There was no doubt as I posted the corresponding verses which put the dialogue within context.



No it is not a sin against the Holy Spirit. Note well Paul's discussion of conscience. He is clearly showing the difference between a mature Christian and an immature Christian. At the time of the Jerusalem council the Gentile churches were young and immature. The council gave them basic instructions to avoid sinful situations.

I will note you have launched a serious judgement against Paul a brother in Christ.

Do you view Paul as a false prophet?

IMO that mature Christian and an immature Christian argument is a canard to explain away problems.
Did I say anything about Paul that I did not back up with Scripture?

 

[nick notes]

What does your Biblical canon look like? Which Gospel accounts are accurate and which are not?

Or do you subscribe to the Michael Rood version that only portions of Matthew are inspired?

I don't know Michael Rood.
But I do know there are problems with Matthew's Gospel.
For Example........
In Matthew's Gospel, there is a passage, which contains several proofs that Matthew's Gospel contains Fiction.
Matthew 28:11-15 (New American Standard Bible)

11Now while they were on their way, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all that had happened.

12And when they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers,

13and said, "You are to say, 'His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep.'

14"And if this should come to the governor's ears, we will win him over and keep you out of trouble."

15And they took the money and did as they had been instructed; and this story was widely spread among the Jews, and is to this day.


List of Proofs.
Here is my list of proofs.
1) The Jewish Priests and Elders tell the guards to say "" 'His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep."" This is a ridiculous story to tell. Everyone knows that if the guards were asleep they would be unconscious and not know what happened. The ruling Jewish Sanhedrin was 71 members, seventy elders and the High Priest reputed to be amongst the wisest men. It is not believable that these very smart Jews would concoct such a dumb story.

2) In the Roman world, the penalty for sleeping while on guard duty was death. It is doubtful that even with a "good word" from the High Priest [Matthew 28:14] to the Roman Governor, he would have suspended the death sentence. It is not believable that the guards would have lied and said they were sleeping and subject themselves to the death penalty. Can't spend money if you're dead.

3) The Priests and Elders were very religious men. According to Jesus they were very careful about observing every point of the law, but were missing the spirit of the Law. Matthew 23:23-23-24 It is not believable that these religious men would suborn false witness and commit such a grave sin.

4)The Roman Governor would never believe such a dumb story ""'His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep." One did not get to rule an entire country by being an idiot.

5) This conspiracy to tell this lie, that the disciples stole the body, involves, the guards, the Jewish leadership, and even the office of the Roman Governor. It is not believable that a conspiracy based on such a poor lie would have held together. But that is what Matthew asks his readers to believe. "And they took the money and did as they had been instructed; and this story was widely spread among the Jews, and is to this day." Matthew 28:15 Matthew would have his readers believe the conspiracy lasted for years after the event. Not believable.

6) We have the witness of the four gospels. But only Matthew's gospel mentions a guard on the tomb. Not even a hint from the other gospels. The guard on the tomb is a vital element of the Jesus resurrection story. Had the guard existed the other gospel writers would have most assuredly mentioned it. To fail to mention such an important aspect of the story would be to miss the point of the story. Jesus was in the tomb, the guard was on duty, the tomb was now empty, so Jesus must have resurrected. The other gospel writers didn't mention the guard because this was Matthew's fiction.

 

[redleghunter]

Doesn't it seem strange to you that Paul dumped the Law. [the Torah] , the Sabbath, the Festivals, Circumcision, all on his own say so?
Paul claims Jesus appeared to him and spoke to him on the Damascus road but where are the required 2 or 3 witnesses?

Where did Paul dump the Law? He clearly proclaimed the Law is our tutor.

He preached directly from Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 36:

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[redleghunter]

If I were out on a desert road on a hot sunny day and I said Jesus appeared to me and spoke to me would you believe me?
I doubt it...
So why should anyone believe Paul?

Frankly you are not an apostle who planted more churches than the other apostles combined.

 

[nick notes]

Where did Paul dump the Law? He clearly proclaimed the Law is our tutor.

He preached directly from Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 36:

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Read Galatians...I'm sure you can find some anti-law quotes by Paul.