How should we read Paul?

[Righttruth]

I have been troubled by Paul's writings.
Why did Paul doubt the gospel he preached?

Paul said that he received his gospel directly from Jesus.
11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. Galatians 1:11-12

But when Paul met the Apostles in Jerusalem he had doubts concerning his gospel.
1 Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. 2 It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain. Galatians 2:1-2

Don't you think it is strange that on the one hand, Paul claimed that he received his gospel directly from Jesus. But on the other hand he found it necessary to submit his gospel to the Apostles in private for fear that he had been preaching in vain?

Thanks for raising valid points. His work before coming to Jerusalem didn't get much recognition compared to what he got after he was accepted by the apostles though with reluctance. We also notice his double talk in his letters always coming up with 'please-all' concepts. For all these things of his ways, he wanted authoritative status, so with all self-claims of apostleship and scholarly speculations. including his own abridged gospel, he worked well with godless Gentiles. He was practically left alone, and started writing letters based on what he could gather from others on problems related to churches he founded. So applying his specific letters universally tantamount to deviations from the truth.

 

[nick notes]

But for the fact that the words "things sacrificed" and "eat" do not appear anywhere in your proof text. The anti-Paul crowd have cherry picked until they found a translation which fits their agenda.

Acts of the Apostles 15:20 αλλα G235 BUT επιστειλαι G1989 [G5658] TO WRITE αυτοις G846 TO THEM του G3588 TO απεχεσθαι G567 [G5733] ABSTAIN απο G575 FROM των G3588 THE αλισγηματων G234 POLLUTIONS των G3588 OF THE ειδωλων G1497 IDOLS και G2532 της G3588 AND πορνειας G4202 FORNICATION και G2532 του G3588 AND πνικτου G4156 WHAT IS STRANGLED και G2532 του G3588 AND αιματος G129 BLOOD.
KJV Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
ASV Acts 15:20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood. ​

Without any corroborating evidence from the anti-Paul crowd we must consider that Paul correctly understood what the council decreed and his later actions did not violate that decree.

"Things sacrificed" seems to be a concept understandable by most people who read the Bible. But to speak of pollutions seems rather strange and not Biblical. Perhaps you have found a Translation to fit your theology.

 

[nick notes]

Paul didn't write Acts so perhaps you should be attacking Luke?

Don't you believe that Luke's writings are inspired by God? Or have you eliminated them from your Bible?

 

[ewq1938]

Don't you believe that Luke's writings are inspired by God? Or have you eliminated them from your Bible?

You are the one questioning scripture not I. Have you eliminated Acts and the book of Luke, and the writings of Paul from your bible?

 

[Der Alte]

Acts 9:7
King James Version (KJV)
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
In this verse the men STOOD and HEARD A VOICE.
But let’s look at how Paul told the story at other times.
Acts 26:14
King James Version (KJV)
14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
In this verse THEY ALL FELL DOWN, while in the previous verse the men STOOD.
Acts 22:9
King James Version (KJV)
9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
In this verse the men DID NOT HEAR A VOICE, but in the first verse they HEARD A VOICE.
It is discrepancies in Paul's testimony that makes me skeptical of Paul

Skeptic all you like. Instead of the usual copy/paste from antiPaul-я-us.com perhaps you should do a little independent research on your own. The word translated "heard" in your proof text is ἀκούω/akouo "The verb akouō is used in the sense of understand" (Mar_4:33; 1Co_14:2). Robertson Word Pictures. Also Galatians 4:21

 

[nick notes]

You are the one questioning scripture not I. Have you eliminated Acts and the book of Luke, and the writings of Paul from your bible?

Not at all. I read from the Bible everyday. I have been reading it since I was a small boy and now I am in my 70s.

 

[ewq1938]

Not at all. I read from the Bible everyday. I have been reading it since I was a small boy and now I am in my 70s.

Yet you do question Paul's writings which make up most of the NT, and you have expressed concerns about Acts which Luke wrote. Luke and the other disciples believed in Paul yet you don't. The problem is you have sided with the Jews against Christians like Paul. You believe just as they did and do that Paul is a traitor or liar or any number of bad things, all which are false and untrue.

 

[nick notes]

Skeptic all you like. Instead of the usual copy/paste from antiPaul-я-us.com perhaps you should do a little independent research on your own. The word translated "heard" in your proof text is ἀκούω/akouo "The verb akouō is used in the sense of understand" (Mar_4:33; 1Co_14:2). Robertson Word Pictures. Also Galatians 4:21

Lets Take a Closer Look At Paul

Those who are familiar with police tactics know that the Police will ask a suspect to tell his story several times. They know that a liar will elaborate and improve his story with each retelling.

A good story gets better with each retelling. Let's see how Paul elaborates and improves his story.
Paul tells the story of his Damascus road experience three times in Acts. I will just show the supposed words of Jesus in each telling of the story.

Acts 9 Story.....
“Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
“I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, 6 but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.”

In this telling, Jesus doesn't have much to say.

Acts 22 Story....
‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’
‘I am Jesus the Nazarene, whom you are persecuting.’
‘Get up and go on into Damascus, and there you will be told of all that has been appointed for you to do.’

In this telling Paul makes some small improvements. Now it is Jesus the Nazarene rather than just Jesus. Now Paul has been APPOINTED. Now he mentions the city, Damascus.

Acts 26 Story...by now Paul has really makes improvements in his story.
‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

Wow! Paul has greatly improved the story. In the earlier versions Jesus just spoke...but now he APPEARED to Paul. I'm sure you can see how a simple story has been inflated with each retelling.


2Corinthians 12:16
""But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.""

 

[nick notes]

Yet you do question Paul's writings which make up most of the NT, and you have expressed concerns about Acts which Luke wrote. Luke and the other disciples believed in Paul yet you don't. The problem is you have sided with the Jews against Christians like Paul. You believe just as they did and do that Paul is a traitor or liar or any number of bad things, all which are false and untrue.

Doesn't it seem strange to you that Paul dumped the Law. [the Torah] , the Sabbath, the Festivals, Circumcision, all on his own say so?
Paul claims Jesus appeared to him and spoke to him on the Damascus road but where are the required 2 or 3 witnesses?

 

[ewq1938]

Lets Take a Closer Look At Paul

Those who are familiar with police tactics know that the Police will ask a suspect to tell his story several times. They know that a liar will elaborate and improve his story with each retelling.

A good story gets better with each retelling. Let's see how Paul elaborates and improves his story.
Paul tells the story of his Damascus road experience three times in Acts. I will just show the supposed words of Jesus in each telling of the story.

Acts 9 Story.....
“Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
“I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, 6 but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.”

In this telling, Jesus doesn't have much to say.

Acts 22 Story....
‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’
‘I am Jesus the Nazarene, whom you are persecuting.’
‘Get up and go on into Damascus, and there you will be told of all that has been appointed for you to do.’

In this telling Paul makes some small improvements. Now it is Jesus the Nazarene rather than just Jesus. Now Paul has been APPOINTED. Now he mentions the city, Damascus.

Acts 26 Story...by now Paul has really makes improvements in his story.
‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

Wow! Paul has greatly improved the story. In the earlier versions Jesus just spoke...but now he APPEARED to Paul. I'm sure you can see how a simple story has been inflated with each retelling.

It has not. More information is given whether Paul told Luke more or Luke decided to write more of it down each time.

You have nothing but empty accusations against an Apostle which is heresy itself. One day I hope you get to speak to Paul and Luke face to face to settle this matter.

 

[Der Alte]

"Things sacrificed" seems to be a concept understandable by most people who read the Bible. But to speak of pollutions seems rather strange and not Biblical. Perhaps you have found a Translation to fit your theology.

No, unlike you I looked up the definition of the word and I gave scriptural examples where it is used in the sense of understand. I await your evidence.
From Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich [BAG] Lexicon of NT Greek. Please note all the references provided for the definition "understand."

ἀκούω akouo
7. understand ( Teles p. 47, 12; Galen : CMG Suppl. I p. 12, 29; Aelian , V.H. 13, 46; Apollon. Dysc. , Gramm. Gr. II 2 p. 424, 5 U. ajkouvein = sunievnai tw`n hjkousmevnwn ; Sext. Emp. , Math. 1, 37 to; mh; pavnta" pavntwn ajkouvein ; Julian , Orat. 4 p. 147 A ; PGM 3, 453 ajkouvsei" ta; o[rnea lalou`nta ; Philo , Leg. All. 2, 35) abs. (Is 36:11 ) 1 Cor 14:2 . Perh. also Mk 4:33 ( s. 5 above, and cf. Epict. 1, 29, 66
t. dunamevnoi" aujta; ajkou`sai ). W. acc. to;n novmon understand the law Gal 4:21 ; perh. Ac 22:9 ; 26:14 ( s. 1b a above) belong here. Cf. also the play on words (1a above) ajkouvonte" oujk ajkouvousin Mt 13:13 . ajkouvw is occasionally used as a perfective present: I hear = I have heard (so as early as Il. 24, 543; Aristoph. , Frogs 426; X. , An. 2, 5, 13, Mem. 2, 4, 1; 3, 5, 26; Pla. , Rep. 583 D ; Theocr. 15, 23) Lk 9:9 ; 1 Cor 11:18 ; 2 Th 3:11 . Bl-D. §322. M-M. B. 1037; 1339.
BAG Online​

 

[ewq1938]

Doesn't it seem strange to you that Paul dumped the Law. [the Torah] , the Sabbath, the Festivals, Circumcision, all on his own say so?

It comes from Christ. This is what the new covenant is about, which you do not understand.

 

[Der Alte]

Doesn't it seem strange to you that Paul dumped the Law. [the Torah] , the Sabbath, the Festivals, Circumcision, all on his own say so?
Paul claims Jesus appeared to him and spoke to him on the Damascus road but where are the required 2 or 3 witnesses?

Same ol' copy/paste from an anti-Paul website. Where did Paul "dump the Law. [the Torah], the Sabbath, the Festivals, Circumcision, all on his own say so?" Paul quoted the ten commandments in his writings. Where are John's 2-3 witnesses for all the visions in revelation? Where are Stephen's 2-3 witnesses for his vision?

 

[nick notes]

It has not. More information is given whether Paul told Luke more or Luke decided to write more of it down each time.

You have nothing but empty accusations against an Apostle which is heresy itself. One day I hope you get to speak to Paul and Luke face to face to settle this matter.

That would be wonderful.

 

[Der Alte]

Lets Take a Closer Look At Paul
Those who are familiar with police tactics know that the Police will ask a suspect to tell his story several times. They know that a liar will elaborate and improve his story with each retelling.....

Wait a cotton picking minute here amigo. You completely ignored my argument twice and come back with a different argument copy/pasted from an anti-Paul website. How about dealing with my replies?

 

[nick notes]

No, unlike you I looked up the definition of the word and I gave scriptural examples where it is used in the sense of understand. I await your evidence.
From Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich [BAG] Lexicon of NT Greek. Please note all the references provided for the definition "understand."

ἀκούω akouo
7. understand ( Teles p. 47, 12; Galen : CMG Suppl. I p. 12, 29; Aelian , V.H. 13, 46; Apollon. Dysc. , Gramm. Gr. II 2 p. 424, 5 U. ajkouvein = sunievnai tw`n hjkousmevnwn ; Sext. Emp. , Math. 1, 37 to; mh; pavnta" pavntwn ajkouvein ; Julian , Orat. 4 p. 147 A ; PGM 3, 453 ajkouvsei" ta; o[rnea lalou`nta ; Philo , Leg. All. 2, 35) abs. (Is 36:11 ) 1 Cor 14:2 . Perh. also Mk 4:33 ( s. 5 above, and cf. Epict. 1, 29, 66
t. dunamevnoi" aujta; ajkou`sai ). W. acc. to;n novmon understand the law Gal 4:21 ; perh. Ac 22:9 ; 26:14 ( s. 1b a above) belong here. Cf. also the play on words (1a above) ajkouvonte" oujk ajkouvousin Mt 13:13 . ajkouvw is occasionally used as a perfective present: I hear = I have heard (so as early as Il. 24, 543; Aristoph. , Frogs 426; X. , An. 2, 5, 13, Mem. 2, 4, 1; 3, 5, 26; Pla. , Rep. 583 D ; Theocr. 15, 23) Lk 9:9 ; 1 Cor 11:18 ; 2 Th 3:11 . Bl-D. §322. M-M. B. 1037; 1339.
BAG Online​

Oh...i see what you did.....
I quoted the following...
Acts 15:28-29New American Standard Bible (NASB)
28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

But you based your argument on a Scripture that I did not quote..
Acts 15:20New American Standard Bible (NASB)
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

 

[nick notes]

It comes from Christ. This is what the new covenant is about, which you do not understand.

If I were out on a desert road on a hot sunny day and I said Jesus appeared to me and spoke to me would you believe me?
I doubt it...
So why should anyone believe Paul?

 

[nick notes]

Same ol' copy/paste from an anti-Paul website. Where did Paul "dump the Law. [the Torah], the Sabbath, the Festivals, Circumcision, all on his own say so?" Paul quoted the ten commandments in his writings. Where are John's 2-3 witnesses for all the visions in revelation? Where are Stephen's 2-3 witnesses for his vision?

If you know the Bible do your own research on the Law. [the Torah], the Sabbath, the Festivals, Circumcision,
As for Stephen, he made a very serious error for a man who supposedly was in the spirit

Acts 7:15-16
15 And Jacob went down to Egypt and there he and our fathers died. 16 From there they were removed to Shechem and laid in the tomb which Abraham had purchased for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor in Shechem.

According to Stephen the land was purchased by Abraham from Hamor in Shechem.
But check out genesis.

Genesis 33:18-19
Now Jacob came safely to the city of Shechem, which is in the land of Canaan, when he came from Paddan-aram, and camped before the city. He bought the piece of land where he had pitched his tent from the hand of the sons of Hamor, Shechem’s father, for one hundred pieces of money.

But according to Genesis Jacob bought the land from Hamor at Shechem.

 

[nick notes]

Wait a cotton picking minute here amigo. You completely ignored my argument twice and come back with a different argument copy/pasted from an anti-Paul website. How about dealing with my replies?

I can assure you I am not copying from any website.
I have answered you every time. Perhaps you are not happy with my answers

 

[Der Alte]

This is my post that you quoted.

"No, unlike you I looked up the definition of the word and I gave scriptural examples where it is used in the sense of understand. I await your evidence.
From Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich [BAG] Lexicon of NT Greek. Please note all the references provided for the definition "understand."

ἀκούω akouo
7. understand ( Teles p. 47, 12; Galen : CMG Suppl. I p. 12, 29; Aelian , V.H. 13, 46; Apollon. Dysc. , Gramm. Gr. II 2 p. 424, 5 U. ajkouvein = sunievnai tw`n hjkousmevnwn ; Sext. Emp. , Math. 1, 37 to; mh; pavnta" pavntwn ajkouvein ; Julian , Orat. 4 p. 147 A ; PGM 3, 453 ajkouvsei" ta; o[rnea lalou`nta ; Philo , Leg. All. 2, 35) abs. (Is 36:11 ) 1 Cor 14:2 . Perh. also Mk 4:33 ( s. 5 above, and cf. Epict. 1, 29, 66
t. dunamevnoi" aujta; ajkou`sai ). W. acc. to;n novmon understand the law Gal 4:21 ; perh. Ac 22:9 ; 26:14 ( s. 1b a above) belong here. Cf. also the play on words (1a above) ajkouvonte" oujk ajkouvousin Mt 13:13 . ajkouvw is occasionally used as a perfective present: I hear = I have heard (so as early as Il. 24, 543; Aristoph. , Frogs 426; X. , An. 2, 5, 13, Mem. 2, 4, 1; 3, 5, 26; Pla. , Rep. 583 D ; Theocr. 15, 23) Lk 9:9 ; 1 Cor 11:18 ; 2 Th 3:11 . Bl-D. §322. M-M. B. 1037; 1339.
BAG Online"​

This is your reply. What's going on here?

Oh...i see what you did.....
I quoted the following...
Acts 15:28-29New American Standard Bible (NASB)
28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”
But you based your argument on a Scripture that I did not quote..
Acts 15:20New American Standard Bible (NASB)
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.