How should we read Paul?

[Strong in Him]

Yes, I am missing a lot for the sake of my salvation: such dubious doctrines that lead to destruction, such as, 'faith alone', 'once-saved-always saved', 'speak gibberish and behave like an animal once in a week', 'lady pastors', 'homosexual relationship', 'meaningless ritual to proclaim the death of our risen Lord', 'false claims of apostleship', 'teacher's status', father's status', 'false and imaginary claims', 'private interpretations of old prophecies', 'business and livelihood to share the convenient verses of Paul' and the list goes on.......

If that's what you believe and you are prepared to tell Paul that when you meet him, so be it.

The Christian tradition, the church, most on this forum and even your own argument at times - say you are wrong. But if you won't see or consider that fact then there's no point in discussing it.

 

[Strong in Him]

For the people who believe in the way of Jesus humbly, dominance and monopolizing are a big no. No wonder Mark sensed that in the very first journey that made him to withdraw from the work in the middle. Certainly, Paul would not have liked that that is why he strongly opposed giving Mark another chance to be part of the journey, unbecoming of a Christian.

Mark did not sense that Paul was false, and Paul did not refuse to take him because he realised that Mark had sensed he was false and was upset with him.
That isn't what the Scripture says at all. So either you haven't read it, or don't understand it and have decided that because it speaks of an argument, this is another thing you can use against Paul; try to prove what a nasty man he was.

Like I say, by your own admission Paul was a chosen vessel, CHOSEN by the Son of God. That is the Lord's chosen one who you are criticising and bearing false witness against. If you're happy with that - carry on.

 

[Righttruth]

If that's what you believe and you are prepared to tell Paul that when you meet him, so be it.

My living God deals with the living, not the dead.

The Christian tradition, the church, most on this forum and even your own argument at times - say you are wrong. But if you won't see or consider that fact then there's no point in discussing it.

I presume, you don't believe this:
Matthew 7
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[Righttruth]

Mark did not sense that Paul was false, and Paul did not refuse to take him because he realised that Mark had sensed he was false and was upset with him.
That isn't what the Scripture says at all. So either you haven't read it, or don't understand it and have decided that because it speaks of an argument, this is another thing you can use against Paul; try to prove what a nasty man he was.

Like I say, by your own admission Paul was a chosen vessel, CHOSEN by the Son of God. That is the Lord's chosen one who you are criticising and bearing false witness against. If you're happy with that - carry on.

No wonder ignorant Gentile world went along merrily with Paul, and they form the largest majority among Christians now.

They are prepared to accept anything that speaks of salvation no matter what.

 

[Strong in Him]

My living God deals with the living, not the dead.

Don't you believe in life after death?

I presume, you don't believe this:
Matthew 7
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Of course I believe it.
But you're implying, "I am right and on the narrow road; everyone else is wrong and on the broad road" - and you accuse Paul of arrogance.

 

[Righttruth]

Don't you believe in life after death?

That is my hope, but there are things to be done while on earth.

Of course I believe it.
But you're implying, "I am right and on the narrow road; everyone else is wrong and on the broad road" - and you accuse Paul of arrogance.

That is because you seem to give importance to the majority opinion that may be pro-Paul.

 

[Job8]

Paul was not a witness in Jesus' earthly ministry

Since Paul obtained his Pharisaic education in Jerusalem, and he was present at the stoning of Stephen, it is more than likely that Paul could have been among the Pharisees who rejected Christ.

Regardless, after his conversion, he was taught directly by Christ Himself. Therefore Peter placed all his epistles on the same level as Scripture (the Tanakh or Old Testament). In view of this, we can have absolutely NO DOUBT whatsoever that Paul was simply extending and explicating the teachings of Christ, while presenting new revelations given by Christ. All this nonsense about Paul contradicting Christ is just that -- plain nonsense.

 

[Righttruth]

Since Paul obtained his Pharisaic education in Jerusalem, and he was present at the stoning of Stephen, it is more than likely that Paul could have been among the Pharisees who rejected Christ.

Regardless, after his conversion, he was taught directly by Christ Himself. Therefore Peter placed all his epistles on the same level as Scripture (the Tanakh or Old Testament). In view of this, we can have absolutely NO DOUBT whatsoever that Paul was simply extending and explicating the teachings of Christ, while presenting new revelations given by Christ. All this nonsense about Paul contradicting Christ is just that -- plain nonsense.

Self-claims that are not supported by the Gospel and other writers have no validity. Paul never knew much nor preached the words, way and life of Jesus. His assumptions ticked the godless Gentiles to begin with. They continue to tickle with Pauline Christians.

 

[nick notes]

Paul was not a witness in Jesus' earthly ministry. He never heard the elaboration of the parables by Jesus. Therefore, all his epistles should be tested to determine whether they complement the preaching of Jesus or not. Furthermore, any important theological concept cannot be based on Paul's epistles alone. Gospel is the filter one has to apply to his letters.

I have been troubled by Paul's writings.
Why did Paul doubt the gospel he preached?

Paul said that he received his gospel directly from Jesus.
11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. Galatians 1:11-12

But when Paul met the Apostles in Jerusalem he had doubts concerning his gospel.
1 Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. 2 It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain. Galatians 2:1-2

Don't you think it is strange that on the one hand, Paul claimed that he received his gospel directly from Jesus. But on the other hand he found it necessary to submit his gospel to the Apostles in private for fear that he had been preaching in vain?

 

[redleghunter]

I have been troubled by Paul's writings.
Why did Paul doubt the gospel he preached?

Paul said that he received his gospel directly from Jesus.
11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. Galatians 1:11-12

But when Paul met the Apostles in Jerusalem he had doubts concerning his gospel.
1 Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. 2 It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain. Galatians 2:1-2

Don't you think it is strange that on the one hand, Paul claimed that he received his gospel directly from Jesus. But on the other hand he found it necessary to submit his gospel to the Apostles in private for fear that he had been preaching in vain?

It would be strange only if the chapter stopped at your quote :

Galatians 2: Lexham English Bible (LEB)
2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking along Titus also. 2 Now I went up there because of a revelation and laid out to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles, but in private to the influential people, lest somehow I was running, or had run, in vain.3 But not even Titus who was with me, although he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 Now this was because of the false brothers secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, in order that they might enslave us, 5 to whom not even for an hour did we yield in subjection, in order that the truth of the gospel might remain continually with you.
6 But from those who were influential (whatever they were, it makes no difference to me, God does not show partiality for those who were influential added nothing to me. 7 But these, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcision, just as Peter to the circumcision 8 (for the one who was at work through Peter for his apostleship to the circumcision was at work also through me for the Gentiles), 9 and when James and Cephas and John—those thought to be pillars—acknowledged the grace given to me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, in order that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcision.
10 They asked only that we should remember the poor, the very thing I was also eager to do.

 

[nick notes]

It would be strange only if the chapter stopped at your quote :

Galatians 2: Lexham English Bible (LEB)
2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking along Titus also. 2 Now I went up there because of a revelation and laid out to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles, but in private to the influential people, lest somehow I was running, or had run, in vain.3 But not even Titus who was with me, although he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 Now this was because of the false brothers secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, in order that they might enslave us, 5 to whom not even for an hour did we yield in subjection, in order that the truth of the gospel might remain continually with you.
6 But from those who were influential (whatever they were, it makes no difference to me, God does not show partiality for those who were influential added nothing to me. 7 But these, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcision, just as Peter to the circumcision 8 (for the one who was at work through Peter for his apostleship to the circumcision was at work also through me for the Gentiles), 9 and when James and Cephas and John—those thought to be pillars—acknowledged the grace given to me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, in order that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcision.
10 They asked only that we should remember the poor, the very thing I was also eager to do.

If you received a message from Jesus himself would you find it necessary to check out Jesus' message with other men?
I doubt it.....IMO Paul definitely expressed doubt in his Gospel.

Paul Lied and Sinned Against the Holy Spirit.
In Acts Chapter 15 the Leaders of the New Christian Church met to make some rules.
The following Scripture is their ruling.

Acts 15:28-29New American Standard Bible (NASB)
28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

Notice that the Holy Spirit complied with this ruling.
Also notice that one of the rulings by the Leaders and the Holy Spirit was to abstain from things sacrificed to idols.

BTW Paul was present at this meeting and surely was aware of this ruling.
But look what Paul preached.

1 Timothy 4:4-5New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.


1 Corinthians 8:4-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?

After reading this passage by Paul in first Corinthians isn't it obvious that Paul is advocating eating food sacrificed to idols in contradiction of the command by the Holy Spirit and the Leaders of the Church?

Isn't this an intentional sin against the Holy Spirit?

 

[ewq1938]

Another Messianic anti-Pauline post. Beware of anything this person says.

I have been troubled by Paul's writings.
Why did Paul doubt the gospel he preached?

Paul said that he received his gospel directly from Jesus.
11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. Galatians 1:11-12

But when Paul met the Apostles in Jerusalem he had doubts concerning his gospel.
1 Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. 2 It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain. Galatians 2:1-2

Don't you think it is strange that on the one hand, Paul claimed that he received his gospel directly from Jesus. But on the other hand he found it necessary to submit his gospel to the Apostles in private for fear that he had been preaching in vain?

 

[MWood]

If you received a message from Jesus himself would you find it necessary to check out Jesus' message with other men?
I doubt it.....IMO Paul definitely expressed doubt in his Gospel.

Paul Lied and Sinned Against the Holy Spirit.
In Acts Chapter 15 the Leaders of the New Christian Church met to make some rules.
The following Scripture is their ruling.

Acts 15:28-29New American Standard Bible (NASB)
28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

Notice that the Holy Spirit complied with this ruling.
Also notice that one of the rulings by the Leaders and the Holy Spirit was to abstain from things sacrificed to idols.

BTW Paul was present at this meeting and surely was aware of this ruling.
But look what Paul preached.

1 Timothy 4:4-5New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.


1 Corinthians 8:4-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?

After reading this passage by Paul in first Corinthians isn't it obvious that Paul is advocating eating food sacrificed to idols in contradiction of the command by the Holy Spirit and the Leaders of the Church?

Isn't this an intentional sin against the Holy Spirit?

NO!

 

[nick notes]

Another Messianic anti-Pauline post. Beware of anything this person says.

So who is on the Throne?
Revelation 21:5-7New American Standard Bible (NASB)
5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

Revelation 7:10
and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

Revelation 19:4
And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne saying, “Amen. Hallelujah!”

 

[ewq1938]

So who is on the Throne?

Irrelevant. It is your attempt to question the Apostle Paul that is the issue here.

 

[nick notes]

Irrelevant. It is your attempt to question the Apostle Paul that is the issue here.

Are you referring to Paul the murderer who was an accomplice in the murder of Stephen?
Outline of Paul’s murderous career.

Acts 7:58 (New American Standard Bible)
When they had driven him [Stephen] out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. [Paul]
This is proof that Paul was a co-conspirator in the murder of Stephen. He was guilty of Felony murder.

And it was definitely murder.
John 18:31 (New American Standard Bible)
31So Pilate said to them, "Take Him yourselves, and judge Him according to your law." The Jews said to him, "We are not permitted to put anyone to death,"

Paul and his associates did not have a legal right to put Stephen to death. It was murder.

Acts 8:1 (New American Standard Bible)

Saul [Paul] was in hearty agreement with putting him [Stephen] to death.

Acts 22:20 (New American Standard Bible)
20'And when the blood of Your witness Stephen was being shed, I also was standing by approving, and watching out for the coats of those who were slaying him.'

Paul went on to continue murdering and bragged about it.
Acts 22:4 (New American Standard Bible)
I persecuted this Way to the death

Acts 26:10 (New American Standard Bible)
"And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, but also when they were being put to death I cast my vote against them.

 

[ewq1938]

Are you referring to Paul the murderer who was an accomplice in the murder of Stephen?

No, that was Saul before his conversion to Christianity and his name change. You are wrong to try to use this to turn Paul into a bad person. You are no better than the Jews that persecuted Paul for teaching the truth about Christianity.

 

[nick notes]

No, that was Saul before his conversion to Christianity and his name change. You are wrong to try to use this to turn Paul into a bad person. You are no better than the Jews that persecuted Paul for teaching the truth about Christianity.

Acts 9:7
King James Version (KJV)
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

In this verse the men STOOD and HEARD A VOICE.
But let’s look at how Paul told the story at other times.

Acts 26:14
King James Version (KJV)
14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

In this verse THEY ALL FELL DOWN, while in the previous verse the men STOOD.

Acts 22:9
King James Version (KJV)
9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

In this verse the men DID NOT HEAR A VOICE, but in the first verse they HEARD A VOICE.

It is discrepancies in Paul's testimony that makes me skeptical of Paul

 

[Der Alte]

If you received a message from Jesus himself would you find it necessary to check out Jesus' message with other men?
I doubt it.....IMO Paul definitely expressed doubt in his Gospel.
Paul Lied and Sinned Against the Holy Spirit.
In Acts Chapter 15 the Leaders of the New Christian Church met to make some rules.
The following Scripture is their ruling.
Acts 15:28-29New American Standard Bible (NASB)
28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”
Notice that the Holy Spirit complied with this ruling.
Also notice that one of the rulings by the Leaders and the Holy Spirit was to abstain from things sacrificed to idols.
BTW Paul was present at this meeting and surely was aware of this ruling.
But look what Paul preached.
1 Timothy 4:4-5New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
1 Corinthians 8:4-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?
After reading this passage by Paul in first Corinthians isn't it obvious that Paul is advocating eating food sacrificed to idols in contradiction of the command by the Holy Spirit and the Leaders of the Church?
Isn't this an intentional sin against the Holy Spirit?

But for the fact that the words "things sacrificed" and "eat" do not appear anywhere in your proof text. The anti-Paul crowd have cherry picked until they found a translation which fits their agenda.

Acts of the Apostles 15:20 αλλα G235 BUT επιστειλαι G1989 [G5658] TO WRITE αυτοις G846 TO THEM του G3588 TO απεχεσθαι G567 [G5733] ABSTAIN απο G575 FROM των G3588 THE αλισγηματων G234 POLLUTIONS των G3588 OF THE ειδωλων G1497 IDOLS και G2532 της G3588 AND πορνειας G4202 FORNICATION και G2532 του G3588 AND πνικτου G4156 WHAT IS STRANGLED και G2532 του G3588 AND αιματος G129 BLOOD.
KJV Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
ASV Acts 15:20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood. ​

Without any corroborating evidence from the anti-Paul crowd we must consider that Paul correctly understood what the council decreed and his later actions did not violate that decree.

 

[ewq1938]

It is discrepancies in Paul's testimony that makes me skeptical of Paul

Paul didn't write Acts so perhaps you should be attacking Luke?