How should we read Paul?

[Foghorn]

He went in his own way ignoring the directive of Jesus.

Now really, prove it. I do not care what your book says, I don't come here to read books.

If your so convinced, lets look at some of Paul's teaching? If not, just admit your blindly following someone's book.

If you would like, I will pick a starting point: Col 1,
The Incomparable Christ
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.


15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.


21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions. 25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, 26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, 27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ. 29 For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.

 

[Der Alte]

Go Into Your Room and Shut Your Door
Jesus commanded, “But when you pray, go into your
room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in
secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you”
(Matthew 6:6).
Paul obviously ignored this command, as revealed in
his instruction to the Corinthian church concerning public
worship: “What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and
I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and
I will sing with the mind also. Otherwise, if you bless with
the spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say
the “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know
what you are saying?”
It is clear that Paul’s disciples engaged in public prayer
in their worship together, even as those whom Jesus called
“hypocrites” loved to stand praying in the synagogue. Of
course, we know of no church that pays any attention to
Jesus in this matter, but that should not surprise us. They
haven’t given him much attention in anything crucial to
their salvation. They are much distracted through listening
to Paul!
A Witness Needed!
If it is a lie, and you accuse me of lying, I will be forced
to respond with a denial because a lie cannot and will not
speak for itself. The things that motivated me to lie will
motivate me to deny my lie. Then, feeling the weakness of
my position, I look for something more! What more can I
do? I must call forth a witness, so that you have not only
my testimony, but also that of another. The scripture plainly
states that everything is established at the mouth of two or
three witnesses. You may have me pegged for a liar, but
perhaps you will believe someone else. But on whom can
I call on such short notice? To be effective, I must have a
witness now! Not only so, but my witness must be a person
of undisputed veracity, for it will not do to call on a reputed
liar. Whose testimony would you accept immediately
without question? Who? Who? Who?
Ah! There is only one person right for my task . . . God
in heaven! His veracity is beyond question and He carries
the extra advantage of never having been known to testify.
He would surely condemn me for a liar if He were to testify
but, since he never has, I am safe in calling upon him and
the very mention of his name may be persuasive.
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed
forever, knows that I do not lie. At Damascus, the governor
under King Aretas guarded the city of Damascus in order to
seize me, but I was let down in a basket through a window in
the wall, and escaped his hands (II Corinthians. 11:31-33).
[The author would like to add that Paul was mentioning
the name of the Father and Jesus to prove that he did not lie!

This is something similar in manner to taking vows or swearing
which was forbidden by Jesus in Matthew 5:33-37]
But when he who had set me apart before I was born,
and had called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal
his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the
Gentiles, I did not confer with flesh and blood, nor did I go
up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I
went away into Arabia; and again I returned to Damascus.
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas,
and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the
other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. In what I am
writing to you, before God, I do not lie! (Galatians 1:15-20)
For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am
telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the gentiles in
faith and truth (I Timothy 2:7).
I am speaking the truth in Christ; I am not lying; my
conscience bears witness in the Holy Spirit that I have great
sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish
that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the
sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race (Romans 9:1-3).
I count four times here, in the New Testament epistles,
that Paul denied that he was lying: to the Corinthians, the
Galatians, Timothy, and the Romans. Once, to the Romans,
he called the Holy Spirit to witness for him. Twice, to the
Corinthians and to the Galatians, he called God to witness
for him. Three times, to the Corinthians, Galatians, and to
Timothy, the denials were issued concerning his assertions
of his calling and apostleship.

His Most Unfavorable Witness
Paul lied. But now I must tell you that Paul did have a
witness as to his integrity, and it was not a favorable witness.
This was Paul himself:
For though I am free from all men, I have made myself
a slave to all, that I might win the more. To the Jews I
became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law
I became as one under the law – though not being myself
under the law – that I might win those under the law. To
those outside the law I became as one outside the law – not
being without law toward God but under the law of Christ
– that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I
became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become
all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its
blessings. (I Corinthians. 9:19-25).
What a marvelous expression of total commitment
to winning souls! I once found this to be one of the most
inspiring and motivating passages in the Bible. It made me
just want to go out and win souls – to do anything or be
anything to accomplish results.
But look closer – he openly acknowledged a practice that
is utterly dishonest. To the Jews, he presented himself as a
Jew. But to those outside the law, the Greeks and others, he
presented himself as outside the law – as a Greek if we go by
his Greek name. He became all things to all men! Whatever
the occasion demands, that he is. Its begins more and more
to appear as though the Ebionites may have been correct in
their statements about Paul – that he was a Greek and never
a Pharisee Jew. By his own firm statement, he was a human
chameleon!

More Than an Apostle
Paul postured not only as an apostle, the greatest of the
apostles, but also as more than an apostle. In this he was
not prone to subtle concealment of his posturing, but was
most straightforward, apparently not realizing what he
was doing, but nevertheless revealing the self aggrandizing
person he really was. That he could present himself as
being the most lowly of apostles, then assert his superiority,
betrays hypocrisy that was usually masterfully concealed. In
every letter he was careful to affirm his apostolic calling and
its divine origin, once emphatically denying that it came
through men, but only through Christ by the will of God
(Galatians 1: 11, 12). In all except the Thessalonian letters,
the one to Philippi, and the personal letter to Philemon, he
included this apostolic affirmation in the first line of the
letters as I have stated above in the discussion of his office.
I list these first lines here once more because they contribute
to the conception of his self aggrandizement. Remember:
Paul wrote all these lines; there is no one other than him on
record as a witness to his high calling. The fact that now,
after two millennia, untold millions around the world honor
him as an apostle of the Lord only shows how effective a self
promoter he really was!
He engaged in self promotion at the beginning of most
of his letters:
Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but
through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him
from the dead—and all the brethren who are with me, To
the churches of Galatia: (Galatians 1:1,2).
Paul, called by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ
Jesus, and our brother Sosthenes, To the church of God
which is at Corinth . . . (I Corinthians 1:1,2).
88 Did Saint Paul Deviate from the Gospel?
Paul, and apostle to Jesus Christ by the will of God,
and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at
Corinth: . . . (II Corinthians 1:1).
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set
apart for the gospel of God which he promised beforehand
through his prophets in the holy scriptures . . . Jesus Christ
our Lord, through whom we have received grace and
apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake
of his name among all nations . . . To all God’s beloved in
Rome: . . . (Romans 1:1-6).
We must evaluate the character of Paul free from the
shackles that the churchmen have clamped upon us. Then
he comes through in his true colors. A truly meek and
humble man would never boast of his lowliness as Paul often
did; a truly meek and humble man would never boast of
his superiority, as Paul sometimes did. What others cannot
reveal about him because they were silenced long ago, he in
his own words reveals about himself.
Paul’s Great Failure
I define now the substance of Paul’s great failure to adequately
comprehend the Gospel. You note how he started by
saying that he had delivered to the Corinthians as of first
importance what he also received, that Christ died for our
sins according to the scriptures. His gospel therefore began
with the death of Jesus, and did not draw substantively on
anything prior to that. It did not draw on the life of Jesus,
or on the gospel that Jesus preached. It did not openly draw
on the utterances of Jesus. It was “in accordance with the
scriptures” but it was not in accordance with the words of
the Lord. If he were standing before me at this moment,
he might quickly direct my attention to his assertion that
this gospel, which is of first importance, is what “I also
received.” But this must be read in the light of his statement
in Galatians, . . . “the gospel, which was preached by me, is
not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from man nor was
I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ”
(Galatians 1:11,12).
Therefore it did not come from the man, Jesus, but
came only from the visions that appeared to Paul and that
he identified with the risen Christ. He therefore saw no
need of reliance on the utterances of Jesus of Nazareth, and
gave little heed to them. Did the risen Christ then repeat
the words of Jesus to Paul in his visions? No, for in that case,
Paul’s gospel would have conformed in every point to that
of Jesus. Would the risen Christ have delivered a different
message to Paul than he delivered to the disciples as Jesus of
Nazareth? No, for Jesus assured us that, though heaven and
earth pass away, his word will not pass away. It is therefore,
according to Jesus, the permanent and final word from God
to men.
I have been careful to note above, many times, that
Paul was familiar with the Jesus Tradition, the early record
of Jesus’ words and deeds. But he drew specifically on this
tradition very few times. Indeed, as near as I can tell, he
only once drew on words of the Lord that could be definitive
of his gospel, but he utilized it to instruct the church in
eating and observing the Lords Supper. Since Paul wrote
prior to the writing of the gospels, he must have derived
these words from the Jesus Tradition, but he claimed that
he received them from the Lord (I Corinthians 11:23). As
explained above, he meant to be understood as receiving it
from the risen Christ, and so in this case failed to credit
Jesus of Nazareth.”

Certainly, the truth seeker has nailed the speculative,
convenient and ‘ear tickling’ theories based on Paul’s epistles
for good! A great learned testimony for the truth and for the
glorification.......

I think we have had this discussion before. This entire post is a copy/paste from, Did Saint Paul Deviate From The Gospel? by Devaprakash R. Shampur.

 

[Righttruth]

The subject of my response were the prophets of the OT and apostles of the NT. You just called them false prophets and antichrists. Can you back up this claim on a Christian site?

There were false prophets in the OT and anti-Christs in the NT before and may continue till His return.

 

[Righttruth]

righttruth,
Understanding the historical and dispensational aspect is a must to understand the whole context. If you just try and understand just the spiritual aspect you might go awry depending on what your own understanding is and run the risk of missing the point in the context. Even you said you believe in understanding context and what people are talking about and talking to you.

Dispensationalism is a concept generated from a delusion.

Jesus prophesied his death, burial and resurrection when he said; Destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days not to mention this was in reference to a question the scribes and pharisees asked who were always trying to trick him.
The line about openly showing his reason for the death and resurrection being the gospel was after Israel's rejection but Paul agreed with this. Jesus teachings of the Mosaic law in his earthly ministry was not the gospel. The gospel was the death, burial and resurrection. You say that Paul's letters was not scriptural and that is not true. Yes, did he give credit to the old covenant as his basis? What he says about the church and his ministry to the gentiles was accepted by God and the apostles.
You have not even given a specific scripture to prove your point. If you are going to make an accusation you have to back it up with scripture so let me know specifically where you think Paul was in disagreement with Jesus and I will tell you why or why not?

God cannot be contained in a few selected books by men.

Matthew 28:20 is to observe all that he commanded them in proper perspective. otherwise it is just your perspective. Jerry Kelso

I can understand your perspective which is against the words of Jesus.

 

[jerry kelso]

CONTINUATION OF EXCERPTS FROM "DID SAINT PAUL DEVIATE FROM THE GOSPEL?"

The Curse
Another prominent feature of his gospel, related to the
above postulate that all men are wicked without exception,
is the idea of the curse of the law. Writing to the Galatian
churches Paul asserted:
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a
curse, for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not
abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do
them” (Deuteronomy 27:26, Galatians 3:10).
Then he goes on to say:
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law,
having become a curse for us – for it is written, “Cursed be
everyone who hangs on a tree” (Deuteronomy 21:23) – that
in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come upon
the Gentiles, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit
through faith (Galatians 3:13-14).
But when we turn to examine the passage cited from
Deuteronomy 27:26, we find a much different thought
– indeed, a thought that is the opposite of what Paul is
attempting to demonstrate. Rather than being under a curse
by relying on the works of the law, Moses is establishing only
that the curse comes from not doing the words of the law:
Cursed be he who does not confirm the words of this
law by doing them (Deuteronomy 26:27).

In fact, Deuteronomy 28:1 pronounces a blessing on all
who are careful to do all the commandments of the law. The
emphasis on the blessing is clear, for it is extended to cover
everyone in all circumstances:
Blessed shall you be in the city and blessed shall you be
in the field. Blessed shall be the fruit of your body and the
fruit of your ground and the fruit of your beasts, the increase
of your cattle, and the young of your flock. Blessed shall be
your basket and your kneading-trough. Blessed shall you
be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you
go out.
And on and on goes the text, defining the blessing on
those who keep the law, who live by it and do it. It is only
those who do not obey the voice of the Lord on whom the
curses fall (Deuteronomy. 28:15f ). In this text, the law is
not a curse within itself, nor are all that rely on the works of
the law under a curse. Rather, those who obey it are under
a manifold blessing!
Paul tampered with God’s word? How can this be, seeing
that whatever Paul wrote was and is God’s word! Did he
not himself make the claim that his words were really God’s
(or “the Lord’s, I Thessalonians 2:13, I Corinthians 14:37)?
Regarding those sharing this point of view, I can honestly
say that my conscience is free. I have done my best to strip
you of the church-applied shackles that bind your heart and
soul, but if you persist in keeping your head immersed in the
sand of Paul’s baseless theological speculations, what more
can I do?
I can do a great deal more. For one thing, I can provide
additional support by demonstrating that Paul was capable
of errors in logic. If his inspiration truly came from the Holy
Spirit, if he wrote the Word of God in recording his epistles,
he surely would not have written or said anything stupid –
would he?
The Cretans
The first is his self referential statement in the letter to
Titus. Titus had been left in Crete to attend to missionary
tasks, and Paul later wrote to him to more clearly define his
duties. Early in this letter, referring to the Cretans, he came
forth with this astonishing statement:
One of themselves, a prophet of their own said, “Cretans
are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is
true (Titus 1:12).
But, if Cretans are always liars, this statement by one
of them must be false. Paul says it is true. Paul has surely
fallen into a trap of his own making. If the illogic is not
obvious to you, perhaps it will help if I present it as follows,
keeping in mind that the Cretan whom Paul was quoting is
Epimenides.
1. Paul writes that Epimenides says that Cretans are
always liars.
2. Epimenides was a Cretan (a prophet of their own).
3. Therefore Epimenides always lies.
4. Paul says that what Epimenides said is true.
This is a pure conundrum. It is nonsense. Paul says
that Epimenides’ testimony is true, the very testimony that
says that Epimenides is a liar! Surely this kind of puny logic
must have a merely human origin, the mind of Paul.

Call No Man Father
I have pointed above to an incident in which Paul calls
God to witness to his truthfulness; he did this not once but
repeatedly, all in direct disobedience to the commandment
of Jesus: “Swear not at all.” Here are more examples of
disobedience:
Jesus said, Call no man your father on earth, for you
have one Father, who is in heaven (Matthew 23:9).
Paul committed, or taught others to commit, several
infractions of this commandment, not only continuing to
refer to the Patriarchs as “father”, but even establishing
himself as the father of his converts. The most specific
evidence of this comes from I Corinthians. I should tell you
that he does not actually title himself “father” in this verse,
but the language makes this the necessary interpretation.
He actually says,
“I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved
sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructers
in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I
have begotten you through the gospel” (1 Corinthians 4:14,
15).
He is teaching Timothy and all his disciples to call him
“Father,” contrary to the commandment of the Lord in
Matthew 23:9! He would have them disobey the Lord.
Then, in Romans 4:16, he speaks of Abraham as the
father of us all. He therefore calls Abraham, who was a man
on earth, his father, and encourages all other to do so!
You are not to be Called “Teacher”
Jesus commanded, from the same context as above, “But
you are not to be called rabbi (teacher), for you have one teacher
(didaskalos), and you are all brethren” (Matthew 23:8).

Ignoring this command completely, Paul wrote to the
Corinthians, defining the different offices in the church:”And
God has appointed in the church first apostles, second
prophets, third teachers (didaskalos)” (I Corinthians 12:28).
Then, in both letters to Timothy, he specified his own
appointment as preacher, apostle, and teacher (I Timothy
2:7, II Timothy 1:11). This is actually a very good indicator
that Paul authored these two letters, though the scholars
do not generally accept this. But is God going to appoint
anyone as teacher, when his spokesman, Jesus has expressly
forbidden that we should be called such?
Go Into Your Room and Shut Your Door
Jesus commanded, “But when you pray, go into your
room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in
secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you”
(Matthew 6:6).
Paul obviously ignored this command, as revealed in
his instruction to the Corinthian church concerning public
worship: “What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and
I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and
I will sing with the mind also. Otherwise, if you bless with
the spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say
the “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know
what you are saying?”
It is clear that Paul’s disciples engaged in public prayer
in their worship together, even as those whom Jesus called
“hypocrites” loved to stand praying in the synagogue. Of
course, we know of no church that pays any attention to
Jesus in this matter, but that should not surprise us. They
haven’t given him much attention in anything crucial to

their salvation. They are much distracted through listening
to Paul!
A Witness Needed!
If it is a lie, and you accuse me of lying, I will be forced
to respond with a denial because a lie cannot and will not
speak for itself. The things that motivated me to lie will
motivate me to deny my lie. Then, feeling the weakness of
my position, I look for something more! What more can I
do? I must call forth a witness, so that you have not only
my testimony, but also that of another. The scripture plainly
states that everything is established at the mouth of two or
three witnesses. You may have me pegged for a liar, but
perhaps you will believe someone else. But on whom can
I call on such short notice? To be effective, I must have a
witness now! Not only so, but my witness must be a person
of undisputed veracity, for it will not do to call on a reputed
liar. Whose testimony would you accept immediately
without question? Who? Who? Who?
Ah! There is only one person right for my task . . . God
in heaven! His veracity is beyond question and He carries
the extra advantage of never having been known to testify.
He would surely condemn me for a liar if He were to testify
but, since he never has, I am safe in calling upon him and
the very mention of his name may be persuasive.
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed
forever, knows that I do not lie. At Damascus, the governor
under King Aretas guarded the city of Damascus in order to
seize me, but I was let down in a basket through a window in
the wall, and escaped his hands (II Corinthians. 11:31-33).
[The author would like to add that Paul was mentioning
the name of the Father and Jesus to prove that he did not lie!

This is something similar in manner to taking vows or swearing
which was forbidden by Jesus in Matthew 5:33-37]

But when he who had set me apart before I was born,
and had called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal
his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the
Gentiles, I did not confer with flesh and blood, nor did I go
up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I
went away into Arabia; and again I returned to Damascus.
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas,
and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the
other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. In what I am
writing to you, before God, I do not lie! (Galatians 1:15-20)
For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am
telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the gentiles in
faith and truth (I Timothy 2:7).
I am speaking the truth in Christ; I am not lying; my
conscience bears witness in the Holy Spirit that I have great
sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish
that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the
sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race (Romans 9:1-3).
I count four times here, in the New Testament epistles,
that Paul denied that he was lying: to the Corinthians, the
Galatians, Timothy, and the Romans. Once, to the Romans,
he called the Holy Spirit to witness for him. Twice, to the
Corinthians and to the Galatians, he called God to witness
for him. Three times, to the Corinthians, Galatians, and to
Timothy, the denials were issued concerning his assertions
of his calling and apostleship.

-------TO BE CONTINUED

righttruth,

1. Deuteronomy 27:26; Galatians 3:10

2. Deuteronomy 27:26: Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say Amen.

3. Galatians 3:10: For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

4. First of all, the law of Moses came because of transgressions till the seed should come Galatians 3:19 the angels were the mediator of this covenant.

5. The law of Moses is a whole unit and if one breaks one law he breaks all the law. James 2:10.
It is not the new covenant. Hebrews 6-7. So when you try to make the old covenant the new covenant with the exception about Christ death and resurrection.

6. Deuteronomy 27:26; the immediate context was in reference to the specific laws of Moses that had a specific judgement. Cursed be the he that removeth his neighbour's landmark,, cursed be he that maketh the blind to wander out of the way; cursed by he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless and widow etc.

7. Israel had to keep these laws and if they did they had a specific blessing and if not they had a specific curse. If a child sassed their parent they were to be stoned to death. If they committed adultery they were to be stoned to death. There is no judgement for a christian in this manner which was actually a mandatory judgement.

8. Because the 2 covenants are different in the overall picture and Jesus teachings were under the old law is why there are differences especially of Paul and his ministry to the gentiles.

9. The law was to be forever for the jews because there whole life was the law. However, it was to be under the new covenant which was offered only to the jews in Jeremiah 31:31-32 because the gentiles didn't have a covenant.

10. Culturally, the jews are still jews and are to live like jews but they are not to do them under the old ethic concerning to be saved. They had to do these commandments or be cursed. The judaizers were always mad at the apostles for preaching the death and resurrection as well as the leaders and this is why there was so much trouble in the early church. The church was mostly jews from Christ ministry but many wanted to be legalistic and still under the old ethic and not the new covenant ethic. This is why they made issues out of circumcision. Physical circumcision was the sign of the law but it could not save but they had to legalistically do it or be cursed under the law of Moses and to be justified by keeping the Mosaic law.
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but that shalt in any wise bury him that day: (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord they God giveth thee for an inheritance. This is specific so the land would not be defiled. The old covenant talks about the land sinning because of the specific sins of Israel.

11. Galatians 3:13-14 the curse was to be lifted so the blessings of Abraham could come upon the gentiles. The curse is what Peter called the yoke of bondage which was the keeping of the law because of the weakness of the commandment and of how it made them legalistic and cause self effort and condemned them and the desire to be justified. Read Romans 7 and Romans 8. In the early church with confrontation by the judaizers against the apostles including Paul the law keepers wanting to keep the law of Moses and the old ethic were the instigators.

12. You have two different contexts because of two different contexts. You are trying to justify yourself by the law mentality of keeping the commandment according to the old ethic.

13. The blessings were under the 1st covenant specifically if they obeyed all the specific commandments. The church is blessed and set in heavenly places and do the commandments because of who they are in Christ and his finished work not because they are trying in self effort to keep the law.
Spiritual principles of the old covenants can be applied because God wants us to be blessed. Moral law was in every age and within itself is always true. Cain killed Abel and that was a sin but there was no mandatory law of stoning even though the conscience of the people knew it was wrong and would be gunning for him and this is why he asked God for protection.

14. God's blessings are always on his children who are obedient. The contexts are different under the old covenant law and the new covenant law.

15. Under the law of Moses if they performed the covenant he wouldn't let any sickness come upon them. There is no absolute promise of this under the new covenant even though it is possible by faith and even then that is a possibility but not a probability. There are plenty of christians who are being obedient and still get sick because of the fall of man and because it is not a mandatory promise of God. In this respect they just had to do the commandment in order not to be sick.

16. You misunderstand the difference in the contexts of the old and new covenants.

17. Jesus mission was concerning Israel first concerning the KOH and the KOG under the Mosaic law and this was not a message to the church in this context. Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost and the two things lost was what Adam and Eve lost when they sinned and that was the KOH because they had rule over all the garden including the animals etc. Because they sinned they lost the KOG in its spiritual aspect because they were sinless before the Lord. The spiritual aspect was restored at the cross but the physical kingdom reign was not because of Israel's rejection of Christ and not abiding by the law etc. The physical kingdom reign is in connection with the restoration of all things and Peter mentioned this in Acts 3:19. The restoration and the kingdom reign will happen in the future and this is what the millennial kingdom Revelations 20 is about and KOG physically where God will be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28.

18. I will stop here and say if one doesn't distinguish the two different covenants in proper perspective they run the risk of being legalistic, condemning and failing and defeated and they will misunderstand the issue of sin and what God has accomplished and is trying to teach us through the different ages because his goal is that eventually to never have a conscience of sin etc. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

God cannot be contained in a few selected books by men.



I can understand your perspective which is against the words of Jesus.

righttruth,
You do not believe the whole bible is inerrant and you do not agree with the 12 apostles or Peter's books either.
You say that you understand my perspective and accuse it being against the words of Jesus but can give no proof. Anyone can accuse and cast doubts about what one says but if you can't back it up then it is just worthless accusations and is not credible. Jerry kelso

 

[Righttruth]

Salvation by faith alone, which produces good works.

This is equivalent to the OT belief that it is just OK with rituals. That is all what is needed: going through its exercise though the heart may be away from God. Even when one is in the Vine, without bearing fruit will invite destruction. Please read John 15.

The thief who was justly condemned to die for living a life of sin was hanging on the cross next to Jesus, believed in the last hours of his life, and now is in paradise.

David, the Psalmist who spoke many words against the wicked, committed, among other violations of the law, adultery, deceit, and murder, all in one affair.

No one can claim privilege quoting precedent incidents. God deals justly each case based on merits. You and I are not thief or David.

But again, read the words of Jesus:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." (John 3:16-17)

That is not the end of the story; it is the beginning for a transformed life after repentance. Continuation of sin will not fetch salvation automatically.

And again,

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one..."

Why then so many sects and thousands of denominations each at the throat of the other!

Good works are evidence of faith, and come from Christ, not from us. Without Jesus we can do nothing.[/QUOTE]

We cannot escape our responsibility to do good that pleases Him no matter how insignificant it might be.

Matthew 3
10 The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 5
13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

The Rich Young Ruler
16 And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
18 Then he *said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man *said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
23 And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24 "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Jesus doesn't say that good works are necessary for salvation. In fact, He constantly tells His audience that no amount of good works is enough to get you to heaven.

Please quote the verses.

 

[Righttruth]

It's in the law, if only you took the time to read it.

"Cursed be everyone who does not affirm all these things by doing them."

So this means that anyone who is guilty of breaking any part of the law of Moses is cursed.

And you didn't answer my question. What does it mean to rely on the law?

Yes, Law itself is not a curse. Breaking of the Law invites curse. That is OT standard. Jesus fulfilled the Law and went beyond that in Spirit. He put an end to animal sacrifices by His supreme sacrifice. Now it is no longer the letter of the Law and rituals but keeping up with the spirit of the Law. Fulfillment was not to abolish it but to maintain the spirit behind it.

 

[Righttruth]

Only if one denies the Deity of the Son of God and Son of man Jesus Christ.

I am not denying that.

 

[Righttruth]

I'm asking you, not the author of a book. If he would like to join this forum, perhaps I would ask him.

So, why not bring forth some scriptures and prove your belief?

The analysis and views of the seminary student seeking truth are as good as mine.

 

[Righttruth]

Again, why not bring some scripture, perhaps one verse at a time to prove your belief?

I challenge you to.

If you cannot, just admit it.

I don't want to read someones book, I want to discuss this with you.

OK, you may with a statement of his

 

[Righttruth]

righttruth,
You do not believe the whole bible is inerrant and you do not agree with the 12 apostles or Peter's books either.
You say that you understand my perspective and accuse it being against the words of Jesus but can give no proof. Anyone can accuse and cast doubts about what one says but if you can't back it up then it is just worthless accusations and is not credible. Jerry kelso

Obedient to the words of Jesus that fetch salvation, not man-made presumptions and self-claims followed by logic.

 

[Righttruth]

Now really, prove it. I do not care what your book says, I don't come here to read books.

If your so convinced, lets look at some of Paul's teaching? If not, just admit your blindly following someone's book.

If you would like, I will pick a starting point: Col 1,
The Incomparable Christ
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.


15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.


21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions. 25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, 26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, 27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ. 29 For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.

There is not much to say about this excepting absence of the important words of Jesus. Objections to Paul's claims are being made out elsewhere in the text of the seminary student that I have posted. That could form the basis of our discussion since he has analysed everything very well better than what I could do.

 

[Righttruth]

I think we have had this discussion before. This entire post is a copy/paste from, Did Saint Paul Deviate From The Gospel? by Devaprakash R. Shampur.

Right.

 

[redleghunter]

There were false prophets in the OT and anti-Christs in the NT before and may continue till His return.

Interesting response.

You know well I was referring to the apostles and canonical prophets of the OT.

Did they perform miracles of Satan or God?

 

[2 know him]

Paul was not a witness in Jesus' earthly ministry. He never heard the elaboration of the parables by Jesus. Therefore, all his epistles should be tested to determine whether they complement the preaching of Jesus or not. Furthermore, any important theological concept cannot be based on Paul's epistles alone. Gospel is the filter one has to apply to his letters.

AMEN.

 

[2 know him]

I posted this on another thread, but thought I would repost it here: as this is more inline with my post.

Paul says: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good..." (Romans 13:1-4)

Jesus stated: "But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony "against" them". (Matthew 10:17,18)

Jesus clearly said that his followers where to be brought up before Kings and Governors for a testimony "against" them, not for them, and yet Paul speaks against Jesus' words, saying: "governments are ministers of God"; who is right: Jesus or Paul?

"But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." (Romans 13:4)

Jesus states that if you don't forgive men their sins, God won't forgive you yours; yet Paul gives men an exemption to kill others, against Jesus teachings on forgiveness.

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Still think there are no contradictions in the bible?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Isn't forgiveness a work? Yes, it is. Jesus stated: if you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven.
Are we saved by our works? Absolutely, according to Jesus we are, unless you don't believe Jesus.

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." (Matthew 16:27)

Paul stated: "I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some". (1Corinthians 9:22) Can you imagine Jesus making the statement above? No, Jesus called men to repent, to turn from their sins to do good. It becomes clear why Paul made some of the statements he did, when one considers his words above.

 

[2 know him]

The reason you have the bible today is because the Catholic church, during the Council of Carthage in 397 A.D., put manuscripts, that these rulers deemed useful, into a book, and what better way to secure obedience to dictators, than to promote Paul's teachings: which condone governors and their governments as ministers of God. Constantine created the council of Nicaea, which gave us the Apostles Creed, a document that seeks to establish ideology as a virtue, similarly to Paul's writings, instead of teaching men to follow the precepts of Christ. Not long after the Council of Nicaea, the Council of Carthage created the bible: which contains a large contingency of Paul's writings. (All this can be easily researched on the Internet.)

In all fairness to Paul, he did not have the benefits of having heard Jesus and his teachings first hand, and neither were Jesus' words written in a book that he could have referred, to have the benefits that you and I enjoy today. But none the less, people incorporated Paul's teachings into a book that they produced and then they went on to arrogantly proclaim it as the word of God himself. Most of what we have in the new testament is the chronicled words of Paul's writings, a person who refused to take instruction from people that had actually walked with Jesus, and the bible goes on to show how that lack of instruction lead him to all sorts of wayward teachings, against what Christ taught, as he expressed his own beliefs of what he believed Jesus represented with his own doctrines which he sought to enforce. In the end the bible exposes how Paul was rejected by his followers, and the book of revelations commends those same people for rejecting Paul.

The bible is not God's word, it is the creation of men from the Council of Carthage in 397 A.D., who sought to use Paul and his teachings to consolidate their control over a society that had been largely influenced by people that where actually committed to the teachings of Christ. Eventually people were forced to accept the tenants of faith that Constantine ,a Ruler of part of Rome's Empire, and his council promoted upon the pains of death: if men refused to accept them. Today, while the physical threat is no longer tolerated or present, men continue to make the claim that one will experience eternal damnation if they refuse to acknowledge the bible as being inspired by God Himself.

The Catholic church was an evil empire that was a consortium of Roman Rulers, in the early days, who used the Paul's writings to try and secure obedience to their Rule. Once the bible, and Paul's writings in it, was hailed as inspired of God, it meant that any who opposed its writings, opposed God Himself and history bares witness as to what evil acts the Roman Catholic church did to men who refused to subordinate to its authority.

Still believe the bible was/is inspired by God?

 

[2 know him]

Proof the early Church forsook Paul.

Paul to Timothy: "This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me".
(2Timothy 1:15)

So who was wrong: Asia for forsaking Paul, or Paul, which caused all of Asia to forsake him?

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia" (Revelations 1:4). And to the first of the churches in Revelations Christ states: "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars" (Revelations 2:2) In light of the fact that all Asia forsook Paul, why weren't the churches of Asia rebuked? Instead, it becomes clear that John, or should we say Christ, is referencing Paul: when we scrutinized Paul's words in 2 Timothy 1:15 with Revelations 2:2.

Some will try and tell you that Revelations was written between 90-110 A.D. to a different church, but the book of Revelations clearly refutes those claims: "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." (Revelations 17:9,10) John wrote revelations under Nero, the 6th Emperor of Rome, the city on 7 hills; Paul was put to death by Nero in 67 A.D.: 2 years before Nero took his own life.

According to Revelations 11:1,2 John wrote Revelations in the Spring of 67 A.D. 42 months before the destruction of the Second Temple:
Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The temple in heaven will never be tread under foot by the Gentiles and if this was a reference to a third temple, how could John have measured it and if it was in a vision of future events, surely John would have mention that the temple was rebuilt, seeing the second one would have just been destroyed. In any case, Revelations 17:10 clearly confirms that John wrote the book during the reign of the 6th Emperor of Rome and he Reigned while the temple was still erected. So it is absolutely clear that John wrote to the same followers who rejected Paul and they were not reprimanded for it, on the contrary, if anything they were commended for it. And BTW, 2 of the churches walked perfect before God, but how could that be, if they must accept Paul's words as being infallible: as is proclaimed of his words today.

 

[Strong in Him]

God cannot be contained in a few selected books by men.

Nothing can contain God; the Bible reveals God, his character, his works and his will. The Bible is the written word of the Lord and written revelation of God.
Yet you reject some of Paul's writings, which are in the Word of God; writings which are by someone who was God's chosen one and a saint, (your words.) You reject these, while being quite willing to accept teachings from books that the church does not recognise as being inspired by the Holy Spirit - but it's ok, because "the Holy Spirit" has told you that you can read them. Yet in spite of all the things you say about Paul, you are still willing to accept some of his teachings.

Like I said, how do you know what to trust? How do you know when you're reading the Bible - assuming you do - that you can trust it, that that is God's will, promise, teaching etc for YOU and guidance about how he wants you to live? It must be very unsettling; not knowing. For example, the NT says that the Holy Spirit assures us that we are children of God, Romans 8:16, that he is a deposit guaranteeing our future inheritance, 2 Corinthians 5:5, that nothing can separate us from the love of God, Romans 8:38-39. This is God's assurance to YOU. How do you know that this is true if you don't trust Paul, the person who wrote those words? How do you accept his teaching about the resurrection, and our resurrection bodies, if you don't believe Paul or aren't sure you can trust him? If you can't; that's sad. It means you could read the words "nothing can separate you from the Love of God", and think "I can't trust that - because I don't trust Paul" and spend the whole of your life wondering if anything CAN separate you from God's love. Or his marvellous passages about grace, the cross and being reconciled to God; how do you trust those and not believe the person who wrote them?