How should we read Paul?

[Extraneous]

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Our salvation involves both being saved from the penalty of sin and from ongoing sin. You can say that we are justified or saved from the penalty of our sins, but we will not be without sin until our sanctification is complete and we are made to be like Christ in being sinless.

I agree.


1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.


Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do,forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

 

[Righttruth]

I am not claiming that Jesus explicitly called Paul an "apostle" in recorded scripture. But if you read the gospels, you will find that He never explicitly called any of the other apostles an "apostle" either.

Here, this might help:
apostolos: a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle
Original Word: ἀπόστολος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: apostolos
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os'-tol-os)
Short Definition: an apostle, a messenger, an envoy, a delegate
Definition: a messenger, envoy, delegate, one commissioned by another to represent him in some way, especially a man sent out by Jesus Christ Himself to preach the Gospel; an apostle.

Looking for a dictionary definition for the word apostle in a secular way will not help in understanding the spiritual significance in calling the twelve. The word 'apostle' occurs in the Gospel twice in Matthew 10:2 and Mark 6:30. The calling of Paul as 'chosen instrument' is seen in Acts 9:15. The word 'apostle' and 'chosen instrument' can't be equated. Can we equate a donkey with a horse saying that both have four legs and carry men and material on their backs?

Paul was sent out by Jesus Christ Himself to preach the Gospel. He was a messenger for Christ. He was commissioned by Christ to represent Him.

Right.

The word "Apostle" was never actually used by Jesus to reference a specific person. So why do you demand that we show evidence of Jesus explicitly using a word that He never explicitly used?

Are you questioning the wisdom of the Lord for using different names for chosen ones? You know there were number of disciples who were not called for apostleship.

By the definition of apostle, Paul meets the criteria. Who are you to judge another man's servant?

No wonder all kinds of people are claiming to be apostles using the dictionary definition for their livelihood!

Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.

21 Then all who heard were amazed, and said, “Is this not he who destroyed those who called on this name in Jerusalem, and has come here for that purpose, so that he might bring them bound to the chief priests?”

22 But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who dwelt in Damascus, proving that this Jesus is the Christ.

According to the scriptures, that is what happened immediately after conversion. Are you saying that what follows (the Jews trying to kill him) is somehow evidence that his ministry "failed"? The Jews tried, or succeeded in, killing many of the early disciples and even the apostle James, and later other apostles as well.

Yes, he did his work immediately after conversion. There is no problem in that. I meant writing letters with self-claims that led to theoretical people instead of practicing Christians! This happened after he got support from Jerusalem Church.

Nope. I know exactly how Matthias was chosen by the disciples. But Paul was chosen by Jesus, not another man. So he has a higher testimony than Matthias. I do not deny Matthias' apostleship, though he was chosen and commissioned by men, but you deny Paul's apostleship, though he was chosen and commissioned by Jesus Christ.

You are denying the call of the Lord and the specific responsibility entrusted to Paul with your mixed up claims. They are not identical.

Which is why Paul rebukes the church for divisions. Paul writes many churches exhorting them to unity in Christ.

Did not Paul start the first division in Jerusalem Church? What can he expect when he did not practice what he wanted?

I have no idea what you're talking about. I am happy with the scriptures, and if you consider the authors of those "writers of Paul mania" then there's something wrong somewhere...

Going out of the way to defend Paul ignoring the Gospel can only be termed, at the extreme, mania!

No more a self claim than any other apostle. We only have their word that Jesus called them as apostles, and the testimony of their ministry and actions. Paul's ministry and actions show his apostleship as clearly as any other apostle.

Again you are equating a donkey with a horse!

And here I would refer you again to the definition of the greek word apostolos, and then ask you to explain how Paul doesn't fit that definition, since you are insistent on defaming him.You are arguing from a presupposition that Paul was not an apostle. Unless you can prove that using scripture, this argument is invalid. People have already shown the scriptures that indicate Paul was indeed a messenger called by Jesus Christ Himself, which is the definition of an apostle.

I am not looking for secular definitions. I am distinguishing between the responsibilities, status and significance.

It's called circular reasoning. Let me show you how it works.

You say "Paul wasn't an apostle because he was a liar. Paul was a liar because he said he was an apostle."

That's no different from the Jews who said "Jesus isn't the Son of God because He is a sinner. Jesus is a sinner because He falsely claimed He is the Son of God."

When you start with a premise (that Paul is not an apostle) and use that premise to support your premise, you still have nothing but a premise.

I am not caught in the whirlpool of logic. You can prove anything by logic to your advantage!

Excuse me? What exactly is redundant about the Old Testament? Neither the OT nor Paul's epistles "sidetrack" the Gospel. They point to it. God instituted the old covenant to foreshadow the new (Hebrews 9-10). The scripture, from Genesis all the way to Revelation, instructs us and helps us to grow as Christians.

I will ask you again to stop with the ad hominems. They are not legitimate debate standards, and are also explicitly forbidden on these forums.

People quote the OT to use weapons and wage war and quote Paul for nominal faith ignoring the Sermon on the Mount. Lord is looking for workers not arm-chair debaters!

 

[Righttruth]

Paul an instrument of the Lord to deliver the gospel to you and me.

And also Jews which he avoided for convenience!

 

[Righttruth]

I agree with you, I find it hypocritical of people making those statements, after all it is Christ who said that he will use Paul as his instrument to deliver the gospel to the Gentile world. Instrument can also be rendered vehicle.

You have appeared to have forgotten the commandment of Jesus to reach out to Jews also.

 

[Righttruth]

Was Matthias made an apostle?
If so, by whose authority?

With the authority of the Holy Spirit

 

[jimmyjimmy]

After reading this thread, I can see how they used to burn people at the stake in days gone by. Heresy is a highly contagious and terminal disease. There is simply no friendly way to live with something like Ebola. You kill it, and you kill it completely, else risk the lives of an entire village.

 

[civilwarbuff]

With the authority of the Holy Spirit

And scripture says there where?

 

[Extraneous]

After reading this thread, I can see how they used to burn people at the stake in days gone by. Heresy is a highly contagious and terminal disease. There is simply no friendly way to live with something like Ebola. You kill it, and you kill it completely, else risk the lives of an entire village.

You cant kill it in that manner because that's heresy as well.

 

[Berean777]

And also Jews which he avoided for convenience!

He was assigned his role by the church in Jerusalem. Paul was not a free lancer that you make him out to be.

 

[Berean777]

You have appeared to have forgotten the commandment of Jesus to reach out to Jews also.

The gospel went out to th Jews, when Jesus sent them in twos, before the gospel went out to the Gentiles, by which the Lord used Paul as his vehicle in doing so. Paul was assigned his role, was made accountable to the apostles who made up the church in Jerusalem. Paul's writings highlight how he wanted to desperately be the one to reach his fellow Jews, but it was not his choice to do so, rather he was told what to do by the body of Christ on Jerusalem.

Just look at how many times he writes to the Gentiles, as if he is trying to reach out to the Jews in hope that they through the Gentiles can also be called to Christ. So Paul couldn't do it directly, rather held out hope that they would be moved by jealously to also come to Christ.

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! Romans 11:11-12

13I am talking to you Gentiles. In asmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. Romans 11:13-14

It is clear that Paul was given orders by the church and was instructed to be an apostle to the Gentiles, even though his heart was with his fellow Jewish people.

If you are saying that Paul forgot the commandments of Jesus to reach out to the Jews also, you are mistaken. This man was so zealous for his fellow Jews, that the head of the church prevented him from being an apostle to the Jews. Just read how he is conveying that he is assigned to be an apostle to the Gentiles, though he wished that he could also directly preach to the Jews.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, (Romans 11:25)

Do you remember what the Lord said.....in relation to the parable of the vineyard workers. You see the Jews were the first that were preached the gospel, but they shall be the last to recieve it. The Jews as a nation are the 11th nori workmen.

16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

 

[nomadictheist]

Looking for a dictionary definition for the word apostle in a secular way will not help in understanding the spiritual significance in calling the twelve. The word 'apostle' occurs in the Gospel twice in Matthew 10:2 and Mark 6:30. The calling of Paul as 'chosen instrument' is seen in Acts 9:15. The word 'apostle' and 'chosen instrument' can't be equated. Can we equate a donkey with a horse saying that both have four legs and carry men and material on their backs?

Are you questioning the wisdom of the Lord for using different names for chosen ones? You know there were number of disciples who were not called for apostleship.

Once again, Jesus never specifically said to anyone "you are my apostle..." This is not a valid argument. Claiming that Paul is not an apostle because Jesus didn't call him an apostle is like claiming that Peter wasn't a believer because Jesus didn't call him a believer. Jesus never specifically called anyone an apostle.

No wonder all kinds of people are claiming to be apostles using the dictionary definition for their livelihood!



Yes, he did his work immediately after conversion. There is no problem in that. I meant writing letters with self-claims that led to theoretical people instead of practicing Christians! This happened after he got support from Jerusalem Church.

Paul wrote most of his letters when he was imprisoned. One tends to have a lot more time to write when they don't have much freedom to do anything else.

Self-claims is such a tired and disproven argument. Just because you don't believe Paul doesn't make his testimony any less valid. All we have in the Bible are self claims by the people who wrote scriptures.

You are denying the call of the Lord and the specific responsibility entrusted to Paul with your mixed up claims. They are not identical.

No, I'm not.

Did not Paul start the first division in Jerusalem Church? What can he expect when he did not practice what he wanted?

No, actually the first recorded division we have was Peter's doing.

Going out of the way to defend Paul ignoring the Gospel can only be termed, at the extreme, mania!

The only one ignoring the gospel is you...

Again you are equating a donkey with a horse!

No, I'm not. What I am is tired of continually providing scripture and scholarly support only to be answered with "no, I'm right. You're wrong. Nananananananana I'm not listening. We don't need logic because we have the Spirit. I hate Paul."

I am not looking for secular definitions. I am distinguishing between the responsibilities, status and significance.

I would hardly call Strong's a secular definition.

I am not caught in the whirlpool of logic. You can prove anything by logic to your advantage!

Oh please. God gave us minds that are able to use reason for a reason. You can prove anything by bad logic. (If you want to see some examples of bad logic, take a look at all of your posts on this thread thus far).

People quote the OT to use weapons and wage war and quote Paul for nominal faith ignoring the Sermon on the Mount. Lord is looking for workers not arm-chair debaters!

.............

Jesus taught us to treat others with respect. Not only are continual ad hominems not proper debate and forbidden on CF, they are also against Jesus' own commandments. You have falsely accused me of holding many views throughout your posts that I have continually demonstrated I do not hold.

 

[nomadictheist]

Self-claims is such a tired and disproven argument. Just because you don't believe Paul doesn't make his testimony any less valid. All we have in the Bible are self claims by the people who wrote scriptures.

I worded that wrong. What I meant to say was that if you don't accept the Bible as the inspired word of God, all we have are self-claims by the people who wrote the Bible.

However, I believe that all scripture (including Paul's letters) are inspired by God.

 

[Berean777]

Paul held out hope for the Jews after the full number of the Gentiles have come as the 3rd, 6th and 9th hour workmen in God's vineyard. The Jews come as the 11th workmen to take up the slack and will be rallied behind in establishing the highway of God to preach the gospel for the last and final time before the end of the harvest, at the gleaning. The formulea for doing this is declared in Isaiah. That is why Peter tried to disparately reach out to the church in Babylon, the Assyrians, in order to establish this highway, so that their fellow Jews can come to Christ. However we know today that this would not be the case as the fullness of the Gentiles had not yet come until a future date, maybe our generation.

23In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: 25Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance. (Isaiah 19:23-25)

The ones to bring back the Jews to faith, believe it or not are the Assyrians, the church at Babylon that exists today as the Assyrian church. God has always used the Assyrians as his handy work to reel back Israel after it had strayed from their God. In like manner God sent Jonah to preach to the Assyrian men of Nineveh and they repented. Jesus gives us the clue to who he will use to bring back the sons of Jacob as one flock under him. This is the clue.....

38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. (Matthew 12:38-41)

After Christ's resurrection, the gospel went out to the Gentiles and they in turn came to Christ throughout the last 2000 years and counting. Peter went straight to the Assyrian church of Babylon to initiate the formulea, in order to establish the highway as it had been prophesied by Isaiah, but did not realise the sons of Jacob turning back in numbers as a nation. Paul placed the fullness of the Gentiles that is related to the statement of Jesus where the first who were the Jews will be the last to recieve gospel. The hope of Jews today after the gospel has found it's way to every nation globally is through the Assyrian men of Nineveh. Scriptures cannot be broken and if this is the way the Lord wants it to happen, then it will happen that way. It was not in Paul's hand to do anything for his people. The Egyptians in the Isaiah versus are the Gentiles who were once not called God's people, but now when they came to Christ, after leaving their pagan ways, are now called God's people. The Gentiles will come and serve with the Assyrians and Israel will be he third to come along. The third is the finale to the harvest at the gleaning.

 

[jerry kelso]

Logic is not the way to understand spiritual things! There cannot be more than 12 apostles! Peter calls him only beloved brother. The word scripture in the NT refers to only the OT verses.

righttruth,

1. If there can only be 12 apostles is not scriptural. The 12 were picked by Jesus and were his disciples in his earthly ministry. Apostle means one sent with the true message and so they became Apostles after Jesus arose and ascended up to heaven. Jesus told them in Matthew 28 to go into all the world and preach the gospel. They were all eyewitnesses of Jesus resurrection except for Judas who betrayed Jesus and hung himself before the resurrection and ascension of Christ.
In Acts 1 the apostles picked one to replace Judas who had to be an eyewitness of the resurrection and that was Matthias.
Paul was like one born out of time but was given the apostleship by God alone of the resurrection after the fact. He defends his apostleship in the church at Corinth and he got his revelations in Arabia before going up to Jerusalem and Peter and Peter regarded him as his equal.

2 Jesus earthly ministry was to fulfill the law of Moses till the time appointed when he would die and save the whole world. The law of Moses was what Jesus taught which was the old covenant and Jesus message was about the covenants of Abraham and David and this is significant in the lineage's in Matthew 1. Abraham concerned the land; Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5. David's being the physical Kingdom reign. Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulders etc. Luke 1:67-79 Zacharias prophesies about the horn of salvation of David and the oath of Abraham. This was concerning the kingdom reign and the land promised to Israel and the spiritual restoration of Israel to give the light to the darkness of the gentiles who had no covenant. The message of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God which was the physical and spiritual kingdoms of the jews were rejected but it will happen in the future tribulation when Christ comes back to set up the millennial kingdom.

3. Concerning the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection all the apostles preached. Acts 4:2, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
In Jesus earthly ministry of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God Jesus did not preach for the jews to be saved. John the baptist was to manifest through water baptism the person of Jesus so the jews would recognize him as the Messiah John 1:31. Jesus message was Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand Matthew 4:17 and be born again John 3:5 and seek the kingdom of God Matthew 6:33 and to believe in him personally and he would forgive them of their sins. This is why he came to seek and save that which was lost.
Jesus never said much about his resurrection until the last days which was after the rejection of Israel Matthew 23:37-39. Peter didn't understand the death, burial and resurrection at the end of Christ ministry in Matthew 16:22-23 and Jesus rebuked him for he didn't savor the things of God concerning Jesus and redemption by the way of the cross.

4. In essence Paul was not deviating from Jesus message of the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection but Christ didn't fully reveal it and didn't demand it in his earthly ministry to the jews only of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God message. After his resurrection he fully revealed the meaning of what the prophets said about the prophecies of his being the Savior and the mission of the cross and resurrection and that the gospel should be preached in his name about the death and resurrection. Paul and Jesus are in perfect harmony.

5. Jesus mission was to fulfill the specific parts of the jewish covenants of Abraham and David in their earthly calling for they will be at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:1-4.
It was also prophesied that the jews would reject Christ message and it was also known from the beginning of the world about the church of the jews and gentiles in one body alike. Gradual revelation shows that Israel was for the most part and understandably the start of the church of the new testament. They still understood their covenants of being at the head of the nations for 8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost and then Peter got the vision of the clean and the unclean and the gentiles became on the same level of ground and didn't have to be proselyted into Judaism like as of the old covenant or in the early part of the church.
This was before Paul got tired of the jews being stubborn and rejecting the true message of the body of Christ and he went specifically to the gentiles and Peter affirmed his ministry was a God thing as Paul recognized Peter's ministry to the jews.

6. Paul spoke of the body of Christ and the mystery of the church which was the jews and the gentiles in one body alike in Ephesians 3. Paul showed that there were apostle first in the church and prophets and teachers etc.

7. John also talked about those who said they were apostles to the church of Ephesus in Revelation 2:2; and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them to be liars. Why try those who say they are apostles if there were only 12 apostles? John was the only apostle of the original 12 who was alive and this was in the 90's A.D. and 70 A.D. was twenty years before when many of the others were dead.

8. Paul and Jesus are in harmony with the old testament scriptures for Jesus ordained the church. What was concealed in the old is revealed in the new. Jesus didn't preach to the new testament church of the jews and gentiles in one body in his earthly ministry so does this mean it can't be true?

9. The fact is that Jesus earthly ministry was under the old covenant and not the new covenant. It was the transition and was leading up to it but it was not the new covenant age. One must understand the mission of Jesus to the jews and the mission of saving the world as well and also that he lived under, and taught the old covenant and not the new covenant. One has to understand gradual revelation to get the proper perspective of what unfolded, how it unfolded and why and understand the time factor also. Jerry kelso

 

[ewq1938]

G652
ἀπόστολος
apostolos
ap-os'-tol-os
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

That's his Apostleship! He had a mission from Christ not to mention he did perform miracles in Christ's name.

 

[redleghunter]

He was assigned his role by the church in Jerusalem. Paul was not a free lancer that you make him out to be.

Actually Paul had hands laid on him at Antioch.

Acts 13

 

[Righttruth]

Nope.
The word apostle means "sent". It is used by Jesus in Luke 10:1 where he sent 72 people ahead of him into towns to proclaim the Good News, and in Luke 11:49 where he tells how God sent the prophets of the OT. It is used OF Jesus in Hebrews 3:1 where the author describes him as apostle and high priest.

Your definition will not fit the important spiritual aspect of calling 12. 72 disciples cannot be called apostles. There are only 12 places for apostles, and we are not allowed to mob it with more than 12!

It is used mainly in relation to the 12 disciples - 11 + Matthias; I'm not denying that. But James, Galatians 1:19, Paul, Romans 1:1, Barnabas, Acts of the Apostles 14:14, Andronicus and Junia, Romans 16:7, and others, are also called apostles. It seems that a number of Christians in the early church were apostles - though there IS a distinction made between the 12, and other apostles. Jesus chose 12 disciples to reflect the 12 sons of Jacob who were heads of the tribes of Israel - the nation who would become the people of God; receiving his word and his covenant. The disciples - minus Judas + Matthias - were the pillars on which the early church was built; the 12 leaders, the ones whose word was authoritative. Paul was later accepted as AN apostle - an apostle sent to the Gentiles. He was not one of the 12 and did not pretend to be. But they received him as one who had seen the Lord Jesus and received his word and calling.
That's not the point. You are arguing that Jesus did not appoint Paul to be an apostle because he did not use the specific name apostle. Or at least, we are not told that he did so.
I am saying that Jesus didn't specifically tell us that we could call ourselves Christians; does that mean it's wrong?

You may have to place this before Jesus for a debate questioning the use of the words 'chosen instrument' specifically for Paul's calling!

As he followed Christ

. "Follow me as I follow Christ" - all of them, Paul and the Corinthians - were following Christ; on equal footing, none of them greater than the others. If I was walking along a road behind the apostle Paul I could be said to be following him, but BOTH of us would be following Christ.

You don't require the title of apostle to follow Christ.

It can be. Jesus is truth and people are divided about him. Yet earlier you said;

Now you are saying that truth can be divisive; which is it?

Matthew 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 "For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and a man's enemies will be the members of his household.

It's not an assumption - JESUS chose Paul. JESUS appointed, and sent, him to take his (Jesus') name to the Gentiles.

Both to Gentiles and Jews. Paul on his own limited to Gentiles for convenience.

You seem to require Scripture to say "Jesus made Paul an apostle" before you will believe that that is what happened. Because you don't see those exact words written in Scripture, when Paul writes "I am an apostle", your response is "no, you're lying."

A self-claim wanted to push his agenda!

Like I said, it's only your view that it was a SELF claim.

No, I have shown what Jesus called him.

 

[Righttruth]

Who is Jesus?

Son of God

 

[Righttruth]

I will place Paul under this wicked judgement
1 Corinthians 15;9, For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the Church of God."

What is this? A small concession for a big claim on his own?

 

[Righttruth]

So Paul is still being persecuted centuries later... What will happen to him now...??? I never knew Christians could suffer for spreading the good Word of Christ even after they become a part of miry clay! Who wants in...!!!

Accepting not what the words of Christ are is a big deviation.