How should we read Paul?

[Righttruth]

The gospels are mainly historical books. Paul wrote systematic theology. The gospel tell us what happened; Paul tells us why it happened, and what it means to us.

Jesus was not interested in developing a theology. Naturally, He chose not scholars for His ministry. He wanted the lost sheep to walk in His way of simplicity, lead a life of sacrifice and accept His truth that sets freedom.

Where is the need to know why it happened instead of accepting what happened as a guidance to our lives? Has not Jesus repeatedly told what it means to all of us in a span of more than three years? Just to sum up:

Matthew 5
48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This was reminded to us by Peter:

1 Peter 1
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;

 

[civilwarbuff]

Are you that ignorant of the act of choosing Matthias by disciples of Christ? Luke was the only Gentile writer in the entire Bible. It is well known that Mark was closest to Peter and he was part of the ministry of Jesus.

Matthias was not an Apostle; he was a disciple. His elevation to Apostleship was done by lot. Paul OTOH was chosen by Messiah himself. Whose choice is more acceptable to you: by lot or by Messiah?

 

[nomadictheist]

You show me where Jesus called Paul an apostle, instead of 'chosen vessel' I think I will show what you are asking! Don't you know apostleship is a status and responsibility--not for presumptions and usurp authority!

I am not claiming that Jesus explicitly called Paul an "apostle" in recorded scripture. But if you read the gospels, you will find that He never explicitly called any of the other apostles an "apostle" either.

Here, this might help:
apostolos: a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle
Original Word: ἀπόστολος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: apostolos
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os'-tol-os)
Short Definition: an apostle, a messenger, an envoy, a delegate
Definition: a messenger, envoy, delegate, one commissioned by another to represent him in some way, especially a man sent out by Jesus Christ Himself to preach the Gospel; an apostle.

Paul was sent out by Jesus Christ Himself to preach the Gospel. He was a messenger for Christ. He was commissioned by Christ to represent Him. The word "Apostle" was never actually used by Jesus to reference a specific person. So why do you demand that we show evidence of Jesus explicitly using a word that He never explicitly used?

By the definition of apostle, Paul meets the criteria. Who are you to judge another man's servant?

Where does Jesus asked something like in the manner of Paul? We are to imitate Christ, not Paul as demanded by him!

So you simply accept self-claims without considering integrity of a person? What happened to the ministry of Paul immediately after conversion in Arabia without the support from the Jerusalem church?

Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.

21 Then all who heard were amazed, and said, “Is this not he who destroyed those who called on this name in Jerusalem, and has come here for that purpose, so that he might bring them bound to the chief priests?”

22 But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who dwelt in Damascus, proving that this Jesus is the Christ.

According to the scriptures, that is what happened immediately after conversion. Are you saying that what follows (the Jews trying to kill him) is somehow evidence that his ministry "failed"? The Jews tried, or succeeded in, killing many of the early disciples and even the apostle James, and later other apostles as well.

Are you that ignorant of the act of choosing Matthias by disciples of Christ? Luke was the only Gentile writer in the entire Bible. It is well known that Mark was closest to Peter and he was part of the ministry of Jesus.

Nope. I know exactly how Matthias was chosen by the disciples. But Paul was chosen by Jesus, not another man. So he has a higher testimony than Matthias. I do not deny Matthias' apostleship, though he was chosen and commissioned by men, but you deny Paul's apostleship, though he was chosen and commissioned by Jesus Christ.

Divisions and denominations are signs of Satan. Jesus shows only one way to truth.

Which is why Paul rebukes the church for divisions. Paul writes many churches exhorting them to unity in Christ.

You are happy with writers of Paul mania!

I have no idea what you're talking about. I am happy with the scriptures, and if you consider the authors of those "writers of Paul mania" then there's something wrong somewhere...

No, you admit his self-claim as an apostle!

No more a self claim than any other apostle. We only have their word that Jesus called them as apostles, and the testimony of their ministry and actions. Paul's ministry and actions show his apostleship as clearly as any other apostle.

And here I would refer you again to the definition of the greek word apostolos, and then ask you to explain how Paul doesn't fit that definition, since you are insistent on defaming him.

The very claim of apostleship is misleading to begin with. What more you want. Do you test the cooking by devouring the entire piece of meat?

You are arguing from a presupposition that Paul was not an apostle. Unless you can prove that using scripture, this argument is invalid. People have already shown the scriptures that indicate Paul was indeed a messenger called by Jesus Christ Himself, which is the definition of an apostle.

It's called circular reasoning. Let me show you how it works.

You say "Paul wasn't an apostle because he was a liar. Paul was a liar because he said he was an apostle."

That's no different from the Jews who said "Jesus isn't the Son of God because He is a sinner. Jesus is a sinner because He falsely claimed He is the Son of God."

When you start with a premise (that Paul is not an apostle) and use that premise to support your premise, you still have nothing but a premise.

A typical reaction from a group that believes in redundant OT and Paul's appendix totally side tracking the Gospel!

Excuse me? What exactly is redundant about the Old Testament? Neither the OT nor Paul's epistles "sidetrack" the Gospel. They point to it. God instituted the old covenant to foreshadow the new (Hebrews 9-10). The scripture, from Genesis all the way to Revelation, instructs us and helps us to grow as Christians.

I will ask you again to stop with the ad hominems. They are not legitimate debate standards, and are also explicitly forbidden on these forums.

 

[Righttruth]

Matthias was not an Apostle; he was a disciple. His elevation to Apostleship was done by lot. Paul OTOH was chosen by Messiah himself. Whose choice is more acceptable to you: by lot or by Messiah?

Messiah did not call Paul for apostleship. He was His chosen instrument for taking the gospel to all, not exclusively to Gentiles!

 

[civilwarbuff]

Was Matthias made an apostle?
If so, by whose authority?

 

[Strong in Him]

Jesus specifically did not use the word apostle to anyone other than the chosen twelve because it has the spiritual significance of judging 12 tribes of Israel.

Nope.
The word apostle means "sent". It is used by Jesus in Luke 10:1 where he sent 72 people ahead of him into towns to proclaim the Good News, and in Luke 11:49 where he tells how God sent the prophets of the OT. It is used OF Jesus in Hebrews 3:1 where the author describes him as apostle and high priest.

It is used mainly in relation to the 12 disciples - 11 + Matthias; I'm not denying that. But James, Galatians 1:19, Paul, Romans 1:1, Barnabas, Acts of the Apostles 14:14, Andronicus and Junia, Romans 16:7, and others, are also called apostles. It seems that a number of Christians in the early church were apostles - though there IS a distinction made between the 12, and other apostles. Jesus chose 12 disciples to reflect the 12 sons of Jacob who were heads of the tribes of Israel - the nation who would become the people of God; receiving his word and his covenant. The disciples - minus Judas + Matthias - were the pillars on which the early church was built; the 12 leaders, the ones whose word was authoritative. Paul was later accepted as AN apostle - an apostle sent to the Gentiles. He was not one of the 12 and did not pretend to be. But they received him as one who had seen the Lord Jesus and received his word and calling.

What is in the name? It has become a misnomer in the world!

That's not the point. You are arguing that Jesus did not appoint Paul to be an apostle because he did not use the specific name apostle. Or at least, we are not told that he did so.
I am saying that Jesus didn't specifically tell us that we could call ourselves Christians; does that mean it's wrong?

If you find no fault in Paul's asking us to follow him,

As he followed Christ. "Follow me as I follow Christ" - all of them, Paul and the Corinthians - were following Christ; on equal footing, none of them greater than the others. If I was walking along a road behind the apostle Paul I could be said to be following him, but BOTH of us would be following Christ.

Truth is most divisive in many instances.

It can be. Jesus is truth and people are divided about him. Yet earlier you said;

Divisions and denominations are signs of Satan.

Now you are saying that truth can be divisive; which is it?

If Jesus had not called Paul an instrument, this assumption may have been reasonable.

It's not an assumption - JESUS chose Paul. JESUS appointed, and sent, him to take his (Jesus') name to the Gentiles. You seem to require Scripture to say "Jesus made Paul an apostle" before you will believe that that is what happened. Because you don't see those exact words written in Scripture, when Paul writes "I am an apostle", your response is "no, you're lying."

Like I said, it's only your view that it was a SELF claim.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Jesus was not interested in developing a theology. Naturally, He chose not scholars for His ministry. He wanted the lost sheep to walk in His way of simplicity, lead a life of sacrifice and accept His truth that sets freedom.

Where is the need to know why it happened instead of accepting what happened as a guidance to our lives? Has not Jesus repeatedly told what it means to all of us in a span of more than three years? Just to sum up:

Matthew 5
48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This was reminded to us by Peter:

1 Peter 1
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;

Who is Jesus?

 

[Linet Kihonge]

I will place Paul under this wicked judgement
1 Corinthians 15;9, For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the Church of God."

 

[Linet Kihonge]

So Paul is still being persecuted centuries later... What will happen to him now...??? I never knew Christians could suffer for spreading the good Word of Christ even after they become a part of miry clay! Who wants in...!!!

 

[Dave Watchman]

I will place Paul under this wicked judgement
1 Corinthians 15;9, For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the Church of God."

What did Paul do NOW?

So Paul is still being persecuted centuries later... What will happen to him now...??? I never knew Christians could suffer for spreading the good Word of Christ even after they become a part of miry clay! Who wants in...!!!

"They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God.

"And they will do these things because they have not known the Father, nor me. ​

 

[Extraneous]

1 Corinthians 15;9, For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the Church of God."

Yes, paul knew his place.

Mathew 23:12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted

 

[Extraneous]

So Paul is still being persecuted centuries later... What will happen to him now...??? I never knew Christians could suffer for spreading the good Word of Christ even after they become a part of miry clay! Who wants in...!!!

Mathew 11:7 As they departed, Jesus began to say to the multitudes concerning John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 8 But what did you go out to see? A man clothed in soft garments? Indeed, those who wear soft clothing are in kings’ houses. 9 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet. 10 For this is he of whom it is written:

‘Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.’
11 “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

16 “But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions, 17 and saying:

‘We played the flute for you,
And you did not dance;
We mourned to you,
And you did not lament.’
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.”[c]

Woe to the Impenitent Cities
20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be[d] brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

Jesus Gives True Rest
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”



John 15:18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’[a]

 

[Dave Watchman]

Paul was not a witness in Jesus' earthly ministry.

It must have been hard for him to witness anything while he was blinded on the way to Damascus. That was nice of Jesus to minister to him and to give him his vision back. He was much more than a witness, he was and IS an active participant in Jesus' earthly ministry.

He never heard the elaboration of the parables by Jesus.

I'm sure that his 2 Corinthians trip up to Heaven brought him right up to speed.

Therefore, all his epistles should be tested to determine whether they complement the preaching of Jesus or not.

Ok, I tested them and they're all as good as gold tried in the fire.

Furthermore, any important theological concept cannot be based on Paul's epistles alone.

Does that mean I'm not Abraham's seed anymore?

Gospel is the filter one has to apply to his letters.

Didn't Paul convert the Philippian jailer by saying: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Sounds like a sound Gospel filter to me.

"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.​

I was on another forum where a guy didn't like Paul at all. He blew a gasket every time Paul's name was mentioned and I could never understand why. My theory at the time was that some might blame Paul for the redefining of terms like "Israel" or "Jew" and hold Paul responsible for shifting the end time emphasis away from the nation of Israel in the middle east and over to the Israel of God..

 

[Dave Watchman]

The Lords sheep know his voice, and follow it.

The rules keep me from posting my true feelings regarding the OP, but my favorite Apostle said it for me, so I'll permit him to say what I can't: "I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!"

Paul an instrument of the Lord to deliver the gospel to you and me.

I find it hypocritical of people making those statements, after all it is Christ who said that he will use Paul as his instrument to deliver the gospel to the Gentile world. Instrument can also be rendered vehicle.

Righttruth, be careful to go through Psalm 105:15, 2 Timothy 1:1(backed up by Acts 9:12-18).

We are saved through the cross, through the death of Jesus who came to reconcile us to God - not by how many of his parables we know and the things that we DO.

I've read a number of threads like this from people who hate Paul/don't believe he is a true apostle. We could argue all day about it, and probably will. But as far as I can see, the Paul haters have two main problems;
1) If you are convinced that Paul is false and only Jesus is truth, what do you do about the fact that Paul met Jesus, had his whole life turned upside down by Jesus, preached Jesus, agreed with Jesus and died for Jesus? Paul had hated the early church and those who were preaching Jesus as the Messiah. He has an experience on the road to Damascus and guess what; he starts preaching Jesus as the Messiah and is persecuted in the same way in which he used to persecute others.
2) Paul's epistles make up much of the NT. If he is false and his words are wrong, then, by definition, you can't believe that the Bible is inspired, true and without error. Otherwise you are saying that God allows error into his word.
So if you are saying that the Bible is not inerrant, how do you know what parts of it to trust? How do you know that the Gospel writers wrote the truth? Luke was Paul's companion and his doctor; yet you don't trust Paul. So that means that Luke's Gospel and Acts must be suspect as well. Peter endorsed Paul as an apostle; should we throw Peter's writings out as well? If so, that also means ditching Mark's Gospel since Peter was the source behind it.

Jesus didn't tell us that we could call ourselves Christians. Does that mean that we are all false, unscriptural and that the whole faith, and the church, is built on a lie? Of course not.

The gospels are mainly historical books. Paul wrote systematic theology. The gospel tell us what happened; Paul tells us why it happened, and what it means to us.

Matthias was not an Apostle; he was a disciple. His elevation to Apostleship was done by lot. Paul OTOH was chosen by Messiah himself. Whose choice is more acceptable to you: by lot or by Messiah?

Paul's words never lead me away from Christs words, never. If they lead you away from Christs words then perhaps you are not ready for solid food yet

There are no suppositions, if the Lord says that Paul is the instrument he will use to deliver the gospel to the Jews, Greeks and Gentiles then that is the end of the matter, case closed.

I find Paul's words agree with Christs words. If your beef is that he calls himself an apostle, then that's ok, because paul doesn't like titles anyway. I only follow paul because he helps me follow Christ. Paul is nothing to me, just a servant of the Lord. I dont worship Paul, i just keep his commands because they actually belong to the Lord, not Paul. His words agree with Christ. Not once has Paul words lead me away from a single command that Christ gave, no not once. Paul is not against baptism, preaching to Jews, following the words of Christ or anything else you have asserted. Paul exalts Christ in all things as well. I'll just need to allow to you slander Paul, and me for following Paul's words, because im really tired of reiterating the same things.It seems worthwhile and profitable me to stop debating with you. Jesus said to leave the blind alone because they will fall into a ditch. Proverbs says its good to stop quarreling. Guess what? Paul says the same thing. Is it ok to follow proverbs?

Deuteronomy 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

Psalms 89:5 The heavens shall confess thy wonders, O Lord: and thy truth in the church of the saints.

Israel was referred to as saints and as church in the OT. The terms are synonymous and refer to to anyone who is a member of God's assembly or chosen people.

Excellent posts!

I can see everything is under control here.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Extraneous]

This scripture comparison comes to mind, for some reason, thought i would share it, for what its worth. I also think about how Paul ate with Gentiles when Peter would not.

2 Corinthians 3 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.


4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


Mathew 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.”[c]

Woe to the Impenitent Cities
20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be[d] brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

Jesus Gives True Rest
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

 

[Dave Watchman]

This scripture comparison comes to mind, for some reason, thought i would share it, for what its worth. I also think about how Paul ate with Gentiles when Peter would not.

2 Corinthians 3 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Thanks Extraneous, and for all the great posters on this thread. I think Paul is a fine example of: "whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin". Paul might have got off on the wrong foot but once he was shown the Way he worked non stop. He put on the Armor of God and worked like a soldier his whole life until the time came for him to lay his head down on a stump.

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.


"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.​

 

[Soyeong]

Israel is not nothing but saints and saints! If so, there was no need for God to send His Son! Sainthood is not self-declarative status!

"Saint" is not used in the Bible to refer to someone who is sinless. They way that the word is used in the Bible does not correspond with what you want it to mean, so I suggest that you adjust your views accordingly rather than continue inserting your views into the text.

 

[Extraneous]

Thanks Extraneous, and for all the great posters on this thread. I think Paul is a fine example of: "whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin". Paul might have got off on the wrong foot but once he was shown the Way he worked non stop. He put on the Armor of God and worked like a soldier his whole life until the time came for him to lay his head down on a stump.

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.


"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.​

Paul was a good worker, i agree.

 

[Extraneous]

"Saint" is not used in the Bible to refer to someone who is sinless. They way that the word is used in the Bible does not correspond with what you want it to mean, so I suggest that you adjust your views accordingly rather than continue inserting your views into the text.

I agree. They are however sinless in the sense that they are justified only by faith in Christ, only by Gods Grace. This however includes each and every believer who believes in Christ. So we are all saints.

 

[Soyeong]

I agree. They are however sinless in the sense that they are justified only by faith in Christ, only by Gods Grace. This however includes each and every believer who believes in Christ. So we are all saints.

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Our salvation involves both being saved from the penalty of sin and from ongoing sin. You can say that we are justified or saved from the penalty of our sins, but we will not be without sin until our sanctification is complete and we are made to be like Christ in being sinless.