How should we read Paul?

[Extraneous]

Sorry, your ignorance is showing!

The Lords sheep know his voice, and follow it. I know i follow the Lord. Im not worried. BTW, those red letter words you said were missing in the early texts, that argument doesn't fly with me because all the original texts are gone anyway, and those red letter words you dispute may have actually been removed, not added. Regardless however, it makes no difference to me one way or the other, i know His voice and i follow it. I'm not so legalistic that i cant see how to follow the law, in love, and holiness in faith. Im adding you to ignore now, have a good night, Wrongtruth.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The rules keep me from posting my true feelings regarding the OP, but my favorite Apostle said it for me, so I'll permit him to say what I can't: "I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!" (The Apostle Paul, Galatians 5:12)

​

 

[Righttruth]

The Lords sheep know his voice, and follow it. I know i follow the Lord. Im not worried. BTW, those red letter words you said were missing in the early texts, that argument doesn't fly with me because all the original texts are gone anyway, and those red letter words you dispute may have actually been removed, not added. Regardless however, it makes no difference to me one way or the other, i know His voice and i follow it. I'm not so legalistic that i cant see how to follow the law, in love, and holiness in faith. Im adding you to ignore now, have a good night, Wrongtruth.

Actually you are following Paul, not Jesus.

 

[Righttruth]

The rules keep me from posting my true feelings regarding the OP, but my favorite Apostle said it for me, so I'll permit him to say what I can't: "I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!" (The Apostle Paul, Galatians 5:12)

That is listening to Paul, not Jesus!

 

[Righttruth]

Deuteronomy 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

Psalms 89:5 The heavens shall confess thy wonders, O Lord: and thy truth in the church of the saints.

Israel was referred to as saints and as church in the OT. The terms are synonymous and refer to to anyone who is a member of God's assembly or chosen people.

Israel is not nothing but saints and saints! If so, there was no need for God to send His Son! Sainthood is not self-declarative status!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

That is listening to Paul, not Jesus!

There is nothing right nor true in that statement or most of your posts, for that matter.

 

[Berean777]

The rules keep me from posting my true feelings regarding the OP, but my favorite Apostle said it for me, so I'll permit him to say what I can't: "I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!" (The Apostle Paul, Galatians 5:12)

​

Paul an instrument of the Lord to deliver the gospel to you and me.

 

[Berean777]

There is nothing right nor true in that statement or most of your posts, for that matter.

I agree with you, I find it hypocritical of people making those statements, after all it is Christ who said that he will use Paul as his instrument to deliver the gospel to the Gentile world. Instrument can also be rendered vehicle.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Righttruth, be careful to go through Psalm 105:15, 2 Timothy 1:1(backed up by Acts 9:12-18).

 

[Strong in Him]

Why speculate on who goes to hell or heaven. Our salvation is through by being obedience to Jesus' words.

That's the problem, right there.
We are saved through the cross, through the death of Jesus who came to reconcile us to God - not by how many of his parables we know and the things that we DO.

Jesus said that he had come to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10, give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45, and that God's will was that whoever believed in him would have eternal life, John 6:40. He said that his blood was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins, Matthew 26:28. These are Jesus' own words. Paul also preaches the cross and death of Jesus who came to reconcile us to the Father. If Jesus hadn't died, we wouldn't be here - or at least, not discussing Christian matters on a Christian forum. Salvation is through Jesus, Acts of the Apostles 4:12, who is the only way to God, John 14:6.

 

[Strong in Him]

I've read a number of threads like this from people who hate Paul/don't believe he is a true apostle. We could argue all day about it, and probably will. But as far as I can see, the Paul haters have two main problems;
1) If you are convinced that Paul is false and only Jesus is truth, what do you do about the fact that Paul met Jesus, had his whole life turned upside down by Jesus, preached Jesus, agreed with Jesus and died for Jesus? Paul had hated the early church and those who were preaching Jesus as the Messiah. He has an experience on the road to Damascus and guess what; he starts preaching Jesus as the Messiah and is persecuted in the same way in which he used to persecute others.
2) Paul's epistles make up much of the NT. If he is false and his words are wrong, then, by definition, you can't believe that the Bible is inspired, true and without error. Otherwise you are saying that God allows error into his word.
So if you are saying that the Bible is not inerrant, how do you know what parts of it to trust? How do you know that the Gospel writers wrote the truth? Luke was Paul's companion and his doctor; yet you don't trust Paul. So that means that Luke's Gospel and Acts must be suspect as well. Peter endorsed Paul as an apostle; should we throw Peter's writings out as well? If so, that also means ditching Mark's Gospel since Peter was the source behind it.

 

[Strong in Him]

You show me where Jesus called Paul an apostle, instead of 'chosen vessel' I think I will show what you are asking! Don't you know apostleship is a status and responsibility--not for presumptions and usurp authority!

You are assuming that, because we are not TOLD that Jesus called Paul an apostle, that he didn't. You are assuming that Paul decided to take that title for himself.
Jesus said that Paul was his chosen instrument, Acts of the Apostles 9:15. He also said that Paul would carry his name to the Gentiles and suffer for him. You seem to be ignoring the fundamental truth that JESUS chose Paul and commissioned him. Or if you have noticed that you don't like it, so you are focussing instead on the fact that he didn't use the word apostle.

Jesus didn't tell us that we could call ourselves Christians. Does that mean that we are all false, unscriptural and that the whole faith, and the church, is built on a lie? Of course not.

Where does Jesus asked something like in the manner of Paul? We are to imitate Christ, not Paul as demanded by him!

Paul said, "follow me as I follow Christ." He did not demand that people follow HIM. In 1 Corinthians 3, Paul is saying that there shouldn't be divisions in the church; people were dividing into groups saying "I follow Paul," "I follow Barnabas" and Paul says this is wrong. He asks; "who is Paul, who is Barnabas?" and says that while he may have planted the seeds, it is God who makes things grow.

Divisions and denominations are signs of Satan. Jesus shows only one way to truth.

Paul wouldn't disagree with you.
Just a thought - are you causing division by your criticism of, and refusal to accept, Paul; or are your posts - which are effectively saying "we can't believe most of the NT" bringing unity to us here?

No, you admit his self-claim as an apostle!

As I said before, you are assuming it is a self claim. The words "I, Jesus, make you an apostle" are not recorded, so you assume they were never said and that Paul decided on this title for himself.
Paul was accepted by the 12. If they were not happy with his use of the title "apostle" they would have been more than capable of rebuking him. So would Jesus, come to that, yet he didn't.

The very claim of apostleship is misleading to begin with.

No, Paul said that he was called by Jesus to be an apostle. You have decided that because those exact words aren't recorded for us in Scripture; they were never said and Paul is lying. Are you really saying that you are throwing out half the NT based on this?

 

[Righttruth]

There is nothing right nor true in that statement or most of your posts, for that matter.

Jesus is the truth. You don't seem to acknowledge that!

 

[Righttruth]

Paul an instrument of the Lord to deliver the gospel to you and me.

Paul hardly accomplished that with his assumed authority and lack of knowledge of the preaching of Jesus!

 

[Righttruth]

I agree with you, I find it hypocritical of people making those statements, after all it is Christ who said that he will use Paul as his instrument to deliver the gospel to the Gentile world. Instrument can also be rendered vehicle.

Did he with humbleness and not seeking undeserved status of apostleship?

 

[Righttruth]

Righttruth, be careful to go through Psalm 105:15, 2 Timothy 1:1(backed up by Acts 9:12-18).

None of these will give a right to assume apostleship for Paul.

 

[Righttruth]

That's the problem, right there.
We are saved through the cross, through the death of Jesus who came to reconcile us to God - not by how many of his parables we know and the things that we DO.

Jesus said that he had come to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10, give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45, and that God's will was that whoever believed in him would have eternal life, John 6:40. He said that his blood was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins, Matthew 26:28. These are Jesus' own words. Paul also preaches the cross and death of Jesus who came to reconcile us to the Father. If Jesus hadn't died, we wouldn't be here - or at least, not discussing Christian matters on a Christian forum. Salvation is through Jesus, Acts of the Apostles 4:12, who is the only way to God, John 14:6.

All of this I agree. It is unrelated to self-assumption of apostleship by Paul. Preaching of Jesus is not limited to a few sentences. Otherwise, His ministry of more than three and a half years goes in vain. Otherwise, Jesus could have come and walked to the cross for crucifixion in a single day!

 

[Righttruth]

I've read a number of threads like this from people who hate Paul/don't believe he is a true apostle. We could argue all day about it, and probably will. But as far as I can see, the Paul haters have two main problems;
1) If you are convinced that Paul is false and only Jesus is truth, what do you do about the fact that Paul met Jesus, had his whole life turned upside down by Jesus, preached Jesus, agreed with Jesus and died for Jesus? Paul had hated the early church and those who were preaching Jesus as the Messiah. He has an experience on the road to Damascus and guess what; he starts preaching Jesus as the Messiah and is persecuted in the same way in which he used to persecute others.

We have number of people who went through life in a similar manner unheralded and unnoticed. Letter to Hebrews speaks on that. But none wanted status for witnessing to the Lord!

2) Paul's epistles make up much of the NT. If he is false and his words are wrong, then, by definition, you can't believe that the Bible is inspired, true and without error.Otherwise you are saying that God allows error into his word.

Just because Paul's letters were well written does not make it fully representing the truth. I will not be surprised if the well written Da Vinci Code will become trustworthy to be believed in the coming years! Bible is inspired, but got manipulated, changed, wrongly understood and interpreted in translations. Inerrant concept for the Bible and Pope are disputable. Jesus Christ fulfilled the letter of the Law; consequently, Scripture ends with the OT. Even there only Moses books are given more importance. It is now the Holy Spirit and the writings. Otherwise, coming of the Holy Spirit has no value.

So if you are saying that the Bible is not inerrant, how do you know what parts of it to trust? How do you know that the Gospel writers wrote the truth? Luke was Paul's companion and his doctor; yet you don't trust Paul.

Luke is far better in representing the truth with the information he collected. He admits that. The business of interpretation for gibberish talk is never mentioned in Luke's Acts.

So that means that Luke's Gospel and Acts must be suspect as well. Peter endorsed Paul as an apostle;

Everything should be seen through the Holy Spirit. Where does Peter called Paul an apostle?

should we throw Peter's writings out as well? If so, that also means ditching Mark's Gospel since Peter was the source behind it.

Do you find false claims in 1st Peter? John's Gospel is the best to understand the spiritual significance of Jesus's life, preaching and deeds. Matthew presents next best Gospel being an apostle. Mark's source was best. Luke's need to be understood using all the remaining three gospel books.

 

[Righttruth]

You are assuming that, because we are not TOLD that Jesus called Paul an apostle, that he didn't. You are assuming that Paul decided to take that title for himself.
Jesus said that Paul was his chosen instrument, Acts of the Apostles 9:15. He also said that Paul would carry his name to the Gentiles and suffer for him. You seem to be ignoring the fundamental truth that JESUS chose Paul and commissioned him. Or if you have noticed that you don't like it, so you are focussing instead on the fact that he didn't use the word apostle.

Jesus specifically did not use the word apostle to anyone other than the chosen twelve because it has the spiritual significance of judging 12 tribes of Israel. Did Paul has his own tribe to take up that title?

Jesus didn't tell us that we could call ourselves Christians. Does that mean that we are all false, unscriptural and that the whole faith, and the church, is built on a lie? Of course not.

What is in the name? It has become a misnomer in the world!

Paul said, "follow me as I follow Christ." He did not demand that people follow HIM. In 1 Corinthians 3, Paul is saying that there shouldn't be divisions in the church; people were dividing into groups saying "I follow Paul," "I follow Barnabas" and Paul says this is wrong. He asks; "who is Paul, who is Barnabas?" and says that while he may have planted the seeds, it is God who makes things grow.

If you find no fault in Paul's asking us to follow him, then there is nothing wrong in Catholics in approaching Jesus through Mary and saints. God will also allow tares to grow.

Paul wouldn't disagree with you.
Just a thought - are you causing division by your criticism of, and refusal to accept, Paul; or are your posts - which are effectively saying "we can't believe most of the NT" bringing unity to us here?

Truth is most divisive in many instances.

Matthew 10:35 "For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and a man's enemies will be the members of his household.

As I said before, you are assuming it is a self claim. The words "I, Jesus, make you an apostle" are not recorded, so you assume they were never said and that Paul decided on this title for himself.
Paul was accepted by the 12. If they were not happy with his use of the title "apostle" they would have been more than capable of rebuking him. So would Jesus, come to that, yet he didn't.

If Jesus had not called Paul an instrument, this assumption may have been reasonable. Did Jesus make double talk then? John clearly reveals that there are only 12 foundations of the apostles. Luke and Paul make it about 15!

No, Paul said that he was called by Jesus to be an apostle. You have decided that because those exact words aren't recorded for us in Scripture; they were never said and Paul is lying. Are you really saying that you are throwing out half the NT based on this?

Self-claim cannot be an accepted evidence for proof. I don't mind all writings available. We need to look forward to the help of the Holy Spirit who can help us to remember the commandments of Jesus. Has Paul quoted any statement of Jesus that was recorded by chosen apostles?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The gospels are mainly historical books. Paul wrote systematic theology. The gospel tell us what happened; Paul tells us why it happened, and what it means to us.