How should we read Paul?

[jimmyjimmy]

My faith is in Jesus, not on Paul!

My faith is in Jesus as well, and Paul has helped build that faith immensely. Jesus chose him well.

 

[Righttruth]

Show me one place that I have ignored the teaching of Jesus. Otherwise, stop with the ad hominem and figure out how to engage in real debate

Keeping the teaching of Jesus as addendum and banking on Paul for all concepts is no good.

If you believe that Paul preached only one sentence, you need to seriously study his writings.
Argumentum ex silentio is no argument at all. Paul was called by Jesus as an apostle. This is in the canon of scripture, so if you can't find direct evidence to prove that it's not true your words carry no weight.

Show me where Jesus has called Paul an apostle. If found, I will retire from this thread. Show who else has called Paul an apostle (rank outsider and friend Luke and Paul himself cannot be an admissible evidence)

There is no attitude of boasting. You are inserting that into the passage. Post scripture to back up your claims or you have nothing to stand on.

Please read his boasting letter 2nd Corinthians. Poor Paul was troubled by a messenger of Satan all the time. This never happened to other writers of the NT!

Again, you will need scriptural evidence. Without that, this is nothing more than an ad hominem against Paul. Just because you have not personally experienced interpretation of tongues doesn't mean that it wasn't/isn't a spiritual gift.

That was Paul's gift! Show where else you find this kind of gift in the Bible. Even Paul has not quoted anywhere else, excepting in 1st Corinthians.

People will dispute any part of the Bible they don't like. Bandwagon is not a valid argument.

Anything is disputable if you don't find any supporting verses from other sources. One rank outsider cannot claim monopoly of knowing the truth just because he could write better.

I thought the apostle Paul was a false prophet... why are you practically quoting him?

Yes, I can do without him. Yet anything compatible with the Gospel with verification I will accept no matter what the source is!

 

[Righttruth]

I have never seen this kind of vehement rejection in my life!!! Sweerie, you are on your own. As for me, I will just leave the scripture as I found it. What's written, is FINAL! If you can't deal with it... Sort yourself out!

It wasn't written to PLEASE, it was written to say what it Takes to be in Heaven and to some, what it often costs? It's God inspired, not MAN!!!

So Paul will never be your contention or someone you could decide if he was worth writing the letters or not? You decide as who???

Where did you get the superiority over such issues?

We can debate their interpretations but we have no role in judging the Bible authors. "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was GOD

If you see the Gospel through Paul, sorry, you are lost!

 

[Righttruth]

My faith is in Jesus as well, and Paul has helped build that faith immensely. Jesus chose him well.

Jesus chose him, but he went in his way!

 

[nomadictheist]

Keeping the teaching of Jesus as addendum and banking on Paul for all concepts is no good.

Believing that Paul is a called apostle is not "keeping the teaching of Jesus as an addendum." I'm really getting tired of these ad hominem attacks. Paul was called by Jesus Himself and sent to preach the gospel, just as the other apostles were (except Matthias, who was chosen by casting lots).

Show me where Jesus has called Paul an apostle. If found, I will retire from this thread. Show who else has called Paul an apostle (rank outsider and friend Luke and Paul himself cannot be an admissible evidence)

Show me one time that Jesus explicitly calls any of the apostles an apostle, without going to the gospel of Luke because, according to you, his testimony is inadmissible.

Please read his boasting letter 2nd Corinthians. Poor Paul was troubled by a messenger of Satan all the time. This never happened to other writers of the NT!

I have read his letter. He spoke of boasting, but his conclusion was that he would boast of nothing except Jesus.

You presume too much when you say no other apostle or NT author was troubled by a messenger of Satan. This is another argumentum ex silentio.

That was Paul's gift! Show where else you find this kind of gift in the Bible. Even Paul has not quoted anywhere else, excepting in 1st Corinthians.

Once again, argumentum ex silentio is not a valid argument.

Anything is disputable if you don't find any supporting verses from other sources. One rank outsider cannot claim monopoly of knowing the truth just because he could write better.

You keep using the words "rank outsider." Perhaps you would like to clarify what that means to you. Was Matthias a "rank outsider?" What about Jude and James? What about Peter, who, as has been mentioned many times, attests to Paul's writings and the wisdom contained in them?

Yes, I can do without him. Yet anything compatible with the Gospel with verification I will accept no matter what the source is!

Paul wrote to help people better understand the teachings of Jesus. He fought early heresies. Nothing in his writings contradicted Jesus. Jesus is the source of life and truth, and Paul even rebukes those who say "I am of Paul..." This goes contrary to the boastful, egotistic nature which you ascribe to him.

Once again, post scripture (don't tell people to read it as though we never have) to support your claims. And stop with the arguments from silence (argumentum ex silentio). They don't prove anything.

Every word that is written concerning Jesus - His sayings, His life, His birth, His death - was written by the hand of men inspired by the Spirit. Yet you take issue only with one "chosen vessel" of Jesus Christ, and cannot provide even one scripture to support your rejection of his epistles.

 

[redleghunter]

This was what Jesus asked Paul:

Acts 9
15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

This was Paul's easy short cut!

Acts 13
46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

Acts 18
6 But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."

How was that disobeying the commands of Jesus Christ?

Matthew 10:


11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

 

[redleghunter]

What is the use if you hold the tail instead of the body?

A dichotomy?

 

[expos4ever]

The dimension that Paul added was against the preaching of Jesus in many cases!

Name one specific example of this, please.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

If you see the Gospel through Paul, sorry, you are lost!

I LOVE ALL THE LETTERS WRITTEN BY PAUL!!!

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Please read his boasting letter 2nd Corinthians. Poor Paul was troubled by a messenger of Satan all the time. This never happened to other writers of the NT!

Paul was rejoicing in the LORD that despite his Christian Persecutions the LORD came through for him. He wrote it to comfort other believers who could have been suffering similar hardships.

Keeping the teaching of Jesus as addendum and banking on Paul for all concepts is no good.

I'm sorry there was no time Paul exalted himself above the LORD Jesus if anything he admonished him and the LORD used him as His vessel. (2 Corinthians 1:21-24)

One rank outsider cannot claim monopoly of knowing the truth just because he could write better.

He wasn't writing the Letters because he "wrote better" but because He loved writing the works of God.

I see how easy it is to read through all Paul's letters from a subjective mind and subject him to the kind of things you display on this forum. It's easy to view him as a self-centered, egocentric and narcissistic individual who pursued his individual revelations of the Gospel.

In fact, it's easy to see how he took dominance of the NT when compared the "Original" apostles hence your "ranking outsider."

Well, I think you have suffered sibling rivalry that displayed something close to this. Paul was just a servant of God who preached love, peace and unity to all the saints around the world. He's a very warm guy and feared the Judgment of the LORD more than anything else in this WORLD. (1 Corinthians 5)

 

[Strong in Him]

Paul was not a witness in Jesus' earthly ministry.

I don't think we actually know that, do we?
Paul studied under Gamaliel who is also mentioned in Acts 5:34. Is it possible that Paul was a student Pharisee when Jesus was teaching?
Even if he wasn't, the important thing is that he met the risen Jesus and the apostles accepted this.

He never heard the elaboration of the parables by Jesus.

That doesn't matter. The apostles taught the cross and Jesus as Lord, not the parables.

Therefore, all his epistles should be tested to determine whether they complement the preaching of Jesus or not.

If they didn't, and they were thought to contradict the teaching of Christ and the apostles, they wouldn't be in the NT.

Furthermore, any important theological concept cannot be based on Paul's epistles alone. Gospel is the filter one has to apply to his letters.

If Paul didn't preach the Gospel, then, by his own words, he would be condemned to hell.

 

[Strong in Him]

I mean the preaching of Jesus as recorded in the four books of the Gospel.

You do know that Paul's epistles were written before the Gospels? So Christians would have been reading about the Last Supper and the cross long before the Gospel writers recorded them. In fact, 1 Corinthians 11 is the earliest account of the Last Supper that we have.

 

[Berean777]

Therefore, Paul should be considered in the context of time and people involved. All his letters were meant to specific immature congregations with problems. They cannot be blindly generalized and applied universally. One cannot come to a conclusion of a problem by just hearing one sided conversation in a phone!

How do you know that the congregations were immature? How do you justify your position? Evidence please!

Explain why Paul's teaching should not be taught? Where is your evidence from the Lord in making this claim?

Acts 9:13-16
13“Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”

15But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

Jesus said to the apostle, who was reluctant to receive Paul, that Paul is his CHOSEN INSTRUMENT to proclaim the gospel to the Jews, Greeks and Gentiles.

Now let me ask you a question....

If Jesus says that Paul is authorised as an authoritative figure to proclaim the gospel by the teachings written in his letters, to all the churchs, then do you regard the Lord's word, as the final authority in this regard, by accepting Paul as an authoritative figure?

If your reply is no, then you don't really obey the Lord's instruction. I mean if the apostle couldn't contend with the Lord in regards to how he complained about Paul being a man who persecuted the church back then, how is it that you contend against the departed saint, when he hasn't done anything to you?

What is your agenda here?

 

[Righttruth]

Believing that Paul is a called apostle is not "keeping the teaching of Jesus as an addendum." I'm really getting tired of these ad hominem attacks. Paul was called by Jesus Himself and sent to preach the gospel, just as the other apostles were (except Matthias, who was chosen by casting lots).

Paul was called, not as an apostle. Apostles stand at number 12. You don't have to fit in the Gospel through Paul's letters. That is happening in Protestantism! Verbiage and rhetoric will not help in getting the insight of the preaching of Jesus which was simple to understand and difficult to follow!

Show me one time that Jesus explicitly calls any of the apostles an apostle, without going to the gospel of Luke because, according to you, his testimony is inadmissible.

Please see these:

Matthew 10
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

Mark 6
30 The apostles *gathered together with Jesus; and they reported to Him all that they had done and taught.

By the way, Luke is far better compared to Paul! Nevertheless, his gospel account has been added with insertion of words to support Paul's false claim with regard to communion ritual which Paul instituted!

I have read his letter. He spoke of boasting, but his conclusion was that he would boast of nothing except Jesus.

You agree that he spoke of his boasting, unbecoming of a disciple. Of course, expected from a person who was not part of the ministry of Jesus.

You presume too much when you say no other apostle or NT author was troubled by a messenger of Satan. This is another argumentum ex silentio.

So you want to favor Paul by assuming that other apostles were much troubled by a messenger of Satan!

You keep using the words "rank outsider." Perhaps you would like to clarify what that means to you. Was Matthias a "rank outsider?" What about Jude and James?

Not being close to the ministry of Jesus. That way Jude and James don't belong to the category of Paul, and both didn't claim to be apostles to hoodwink people.

What about Peter, who, as has been mentioned many times, attests to Paul's writings and the wisdom contained in them?

Peter never said that Paul wrote inspired by the Holy Spirit! It was his wisdom that has led to many interpretations and denominations leading to destruction!

Paul wrote to help people better understand the teachings of Jesus. He fought early heresies. Nothing in his writings contradicted Jesus. Jesus is the source of life and truth, and Paul even rebukes those who say "I am of Paul..." This goes contrary to the boastful, egotistic nature which you ascribe to him.

Paul has gone out of the preaching of Jesus on many accounts. Some of these are listed in "Did Saint Paul Deviate From The Gospel."

Once again, post scripture (don't tell people to read it as though we never have) to support your claims. And stop with the arguments from silence (argumentum ex silentio). They don't prove anything.

I have done many times including the ones I have quoted from the Gospel book regarding apostles.

Every word that is written concerning Jesus - His sayings, His life, His birth, His death - was written by the hand of men inspired by the Spirit. Yet you take issue only with one "chosen vessel" of Jesus Christ, and cannot provide even one scripture to support your rejection of his epistles.

You mean the Word's word 'chosen vessel' has no value? You accept Paul over Jesus then!

 

[Righttruth]

How was that disobeying the commands of Jesus Christ?

Matthew 10:


11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

Yes, Paul shouldn't have given up preaching Jews.

 

[Righttruth]

A dichotomy?

A kind of deviation from the truth!

 

[Righttruth]

Name one specific example of this, please.

Institution of communion. Jesus never said to 'remember' his Last Supper with a ritual. the word 'remember' is Paul's invention, not supported by apostles who were present on the occasion.

 

[Righttruth]

I LOVE ALL THE LETTERS WRITTEN BY PAUL!!!

No wonder, people like sugar coated candies, not bitter truth!

 

[nomadictheist]

Paul was called, not as an apostle. Apostles stand at number 12. You don't have to fit in the Gospel through Paul's letters. That is happening in Protestantism! Verbiage and rhetoric will not help in getting the insight of the preaching of Jesus which was simple to understand and difficult to follow!



Please see these:

Matthew 10
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

Mark 6
30 The apostles *gathered together with Jesus; and they reported to Him all that they had done and taught.

By the way, Luke is far better compared to Paul! Nevertheless, his gospel account has been added with insertion of words to support Paul's false claim with regard to communion ritual which Paul instituted!

Neither of these is Jesus speaking. I asked for a scripture where Jesus explicitly called anyone an apostle by name.

You agree that he spoke of his boasting, unbecoming of a disciple. Of course, expected from a person who was not part of the ministry of Jesus.

There is nothing wrong with boasting of Jesus Christ. That is, in fact, the only thing we're supposed to be boasting about.

So you want to favor Paul by assuming that other apostles were much troubled by a messenger of Satan!

I do not judge Paul based on the fact that he was afflicted by a messenger of Satan. Neither do I assume that the other apostles either were or were not afflicted in such a way. The Lord deals with each in His own way, and has not decided to make that known to us in His word.

Not being close to the ministry of Jesus. That way Jude and James don't belong to the category of Paul, and both didn't claim to be apostles to hoodwink people.

There is no evidence that Matthias was close to the ministry of Jesus. Nor was Luke or Mark.

Peter never said that Paul wrote inspired by the Holy Spirit! It was his wisdom that has led to many interpretations and denominations leading to destruction!

Peter said that Paul wrote "according to the wisdom given Him." And that wicked and unstable people twisted his words to their own destruction.

Paul has gone out of the preaching of Jesus on many accounts. Some of these are listed in "Did Saint Paul Deviate From The Gospel."

Negative. Scripture. Not a book written by a Paul-hater.

I have done many times including the ones I have quoted from the Gospel book regarding apostles.

You have not supplied one scripture that validates your claims. You post scriptures that are irrelevant and try to make them fit your claims.

You mean the Word's word 'chosen vessel' has no value? You accept Paul over Jesus then!

No I don't. I accept Jesus and Paul, who is His "chosen vessel."

Provide scripture. Claiming that you've provided scripture and pointing to your paul-bashing book does not prove anything. Of course Paul-bashers are going to bash Paul. It's what they do. Prove from scripture that Paul deviated even an iota from the teaching of Jesus.

If you can't argue from scripture and put your Paul-bashing book on the shelf, then it's clear that neither you nor your Paul-bashing book. Having read some of this book and looked at your posts, I'm guessing, based on your posts and either lack of knowledge of or unwillingness to go to scripture, that your "extensive study" consisted of this book and no more. However, the fact that the author if this book starts the book off by stating that Paul couldn't have understood Jesus' teachings because he was a "rank outsider" -which he identifies - as you do - as someone who was not close to Jesus ministry here on earth - is evidence of his bias from the outset.

 

[Extraneous]

No wonder, people like sugar coated candies, not bitter truth!

Yes, i just love hearing how i don't need dunked in water (your interpretation of paul words) My ears just itch to hear that! I hate water so much, its just so difficult to get wet.

Although i haven't read your book, it sounds, by your own complaining, that it must be a horrible bunch of lies. Paul never stopped preaching to Jews. You are so misinformed by that wretched book of yours. Maybe you have never read these words from Paul.

Whats your beef with protestants anyway? Are you Catholic?


1 Timothy 6:3-4New King James Version (NKJV)

Error and Greed
3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,