How should we read Paul?

[Righttruth]

Paul doesn't come between me and the Lord. He hasnt lead me away from anything the Lord has said. Paul actually lead me away from people who deny the words of Christ

That is deceptive notion encouraging all kinds of claims and deviating from the call of Jesus.

 

[Righttruth]

No, because it's terrible exegesis.

Yeah, that is believing the self-proclamations.

As his accuser, you are the one that needs to show evidence. Jesus, the apostles, and the early church are all good witnesses for Paul. Who are your witnesses against him?

My goodness, this is what happens with Paul mania! We are expected to be witnesses to Jesus, not vice versa. This is pure blasphemy of subordinating Jesus to Paul. God forbid such thoughts! I wonder whether I should continue to discuss with you since you are in a spiritual abyss! Goodbye!

 

[Righttruth]

So you are your own source to test truth claims. YOU transcend all others?

We enjoy the fellowship with the Holy Spirit personally. It is not mass-media.

What is your transcendent standard for 'filtering' out the Scriptures?

Words of Jesus

Jesus appointed apostles, approved ones to preach and teach the Gospel and He told them to go out and teach and convert many many more.

Jesus did not keep adding apostles after choosing the twelve out of many disciples. All extra people are liars with their claims.

Please reveal your canon.

I don't have one. It was not there with apostles. Thomas did not bring a bundle of letters of Paul to India.

 

[Extraneous]

That is deceptive notion encouraging all kinds of claims and deviating from the call of Jesus.

No, its the truth.

Matthew 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

Matthew 13:18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”




Philippians 3:8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Pressing Toward the Goal
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do,forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

Our Citizenship in Heaven
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

 

[Righttruth]

As I've asked you before; how do you know? How do you know that Paul wasn't one of the Pharisees who Jesus criticised? How will you prove that Paul never heard Jesus' words or didn't have them reported to him?
He didn't record the fact, but that didn't mean it didn't happen.

This kind of argument and guesses don't help in discussing his self-claims.

 

[Righttruth]

They were endorsed by the 12, and later also by all those who agreed his letters should form part of the NT. I make that more than 2.

Nobody endorsed the apostleship of Paul except his Gentile friend Luke. Compilation is not an endorsement of self-claims of Paul.

 

[Extraneous]

Paul hated titles, and hated the practice of glorifying men, and glorying in them. Paul was speaking to carnal babes in Christ who glorified men rather than God, and thats why he speaks the way he does. Paul is all about Christ 100%

 

[Righttruth]

The church is all believers. The church is the bride of Christ. The church was identified by Jesus as being an authoritative body - for example when he said, "if you have a dispute with someone, try to sort it out but if not, take it to the church."
Jesus founded, and said he was building, his church. If you are dismissing, or have lost confidence in it, then you are doubting the One who set it up and whose idea it was.

A Church should be led by saints and disciples who have given up all for the sake of the Gospel, not by salaried people for enlarging their families and comforts and who get trained in 'knowledge factories' with no sign of sacrifice. Now almost all churches have become social clubs.

Nonsense. Jesus told his disciples to also make disciples and teach them everything he had taught them, Matthew 28:19. Teaching is a gift of the Holy Spirit. many are teachers; we're not born knowing everything - or even anything; we have to be taught. The person who wrote the book you keep quoting from wrote it to teach people.

Yes, He told to His chosen apostles who had given up all for the sake of the kingdom of God. How many are teaching that way the words of Jesus? People are comfortably spreading self-claims of Paul and using some of his cozy verses or part of a verse because that is their livelihood.

 

[Extraneous]

Paul is actually rebuking false teachers, thats what we see in his words. He is talking to people who glorify men rather than God, and follow false teachers.

 

[Righttruth]

No, its the truth.

Matthew 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

How many Protestant pastors qualify for that statement?

Matthew 13:18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

I have been maintaining that without the fruit of the Spirit, there is no salvation.

Philippians 3:8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

This has led to convenient 'faith only' concept.

Pressing Toward the Goal

12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do,forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

People use this to interpret that salvation is guaranteed but some fiddling is needed meanwhile!

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

Jesus has said that only those who endure till the end will be saved.

Our Citizenship in Heaven

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

That is hope, not something that has been achieved.

 

[Extraneous]

How many Protestant pastors qualify for that statement?

How many Catholics do? They hold onto land (Vatican) and great wealth, and are involved with politics as well. As far as any person who is involved in such things, they will only blind themselves and will not be able to see, and cannot help their brethren take the speck from their eye.

The rest of your statements are a lack of understanding about what paul and Christ are teaching.

 

[Extraneous]

Then why did he keep on harping on assumed apostleship in all his letters? It is like kicking somebody deliberately and asking sorry for that!

A typical Paul mania. Nobody can claim the perfection of Jesus Christ. You have declared a blasphemous statement! Too bad!

These people loved to follow men rather than God. They had no understanding of the indwelling spirit and the power of the Word (spirit and scripture) Paul was only asserting the authority given him, (his authority being the truth that he knew, not a title, paul hated titles and following men)

Paul was trying to lead carnal men into following the spirit, and to not be deceived by worldly false teachers. He did have authority but it wasnt the authority he wanted to assert, but rather the truth about Christ and the spirit. Consider his listeners, and the many false teachers that rose up, and you will understand why he spoke the way he did.

 

[Righttruth]

How many Catholics do? They hold onto land (Vatican) and great wealth, and are involved with politics as well. As far as any person who is involved in such things, they will only blind themselves and will not be able to see, and cannot help their brethren take the speck from their eye.

The rest of your statements are a lack of understanding about what paul and Christ are teaching.

I am not exalting the beliefs and practices of Catholics. But that should not become an example to Protestants to run to the shade of Paul for a comfortable life without any iota of sacrifice.

 

[Extraneous]

I am not exalting the beliefs and practices of Catholics. But that should not become an example to Protestants to run to the shade of Paul for a comfortable life without any iota of sacrifice.

I just like to keep things clear.

 

[Righttruth]

These people loved to follow men rather than God. They had no understanding of the indwelling spirit and the power of the Word (spirit and scripture) Paul was only asserting the authority given him, (his authority being the truth that he knew, not a title, paul hated titles and following men)

For this there was no need for claim of apostleship that was not there for him.

Paul was trying to lead carnal men into following the spirit, and to not be deceived by worldly false teachers. He did have authority but it wasnt the authority he wanted to assert, but rather the truth about Christ and the spirit. Consider his listeners, and the many false teachers that rose up, and you will understand why he spoke the way he did.

A false claim will not make a good preacher.

 

[Righttruth]

No, its just you falsely accusing a messenger of truth. If you cant see Christs teaching in Pauls words, then i would suggest that you dont understand the words of Christ as well as you think you do.

You don't need an outsider to understand Christ.

 

[Righttruth]

I just like to keep things clear.

So you think Protestant pastors answer the call of Jesus?

 

[Extraneous]

You don't need an outsider to understand Christ.

Paul is not an outsider, and apparently you do need Paul, because your accusation against him proves that you dont understand Christs words as well as you may think.

 

[Extraneous]

So you think Protestant pastors answer the call of Jesus?

I said anyone who would blind themselves with worldliness cannot see well enough to help others take the speck from their eye. Its only by forsaking our earthly lives of patriotism, politics and wealth, that we can be healed of our blindness. Going to bible school doesn't open our eyes, only following Christ does that.

 

[redleghunter]

We enjoy the fellowship with the Holy Spirit personally. It is not mass-media.



Words of Jesus



Jesus did not keep adding apostles after choosing the twelve out of many disciples. All extra people are liars with their claims.



I don't have one. It was not there with apostles. Thomas did not bring a bundle of letters of Paul to India.

Which words of Jesus? You already threw out the Gospel of Luke and Acts.

It's quite simple. Just list the books of the NT you have infallibly declared the words of Jesus.