How should we read Paul?

[Extraneous]

One should know the difference between following and believing. We cannot pass the buck to God.

I know, but scriptures do say God will judge us all. Christ says many will call him Lord but they will be rejected. Im only maintaining my humbleness of mind, i believe its important in my spiritual walk. I have a certain level of confidence however, that im following the Lord.

 

[redleghunter]

Remember man is involved in writing. Hearing is more spiritual than reading and recording.

That's not an answer. What transcendent standard do you and your church use to test truth claims?

 

[Righttruth]

Humans are involved in writing everything - even the book you like to regularly quote from. As far as I'm aware, the only document which people claim came straight from heaven; dictated to someone in a trance who had no control over what he wrote, is the book of Mormon.

How do you test such claims? Words of Jesus is the answer. Paul has made similar claims too!

Being written by a human being does not automatically mean it wasn't inspired by God and cannot be trusted. And I don't agree with you that "hearing is more spiritual than reading and recording" - which doesn't even really make sense. I imagine you're trying to say that the Gospels, written by eyewitnesses who heard Jesus teach, are more reliable than the epistles - but that's not true either.

If you searched the Bible, you see the word 'hearing or heard' more than reading. Even when you read, you need to listen to the Holy Spirit. If you read assuming that it is inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error, it is a bias reading.

If you say to us, "I heard God tell me that Paul is false"; how do we know that is true? How would you prove to us that a) you heard a definite voice and b) that it was God and not your subconscious? I'm not saying that you're saying this, I'm trying to give an example. In the same way, if I said to you, "well God spoke to me last night, assured me that Paul's writings are true, and told me to tell you to accept them" - how would you know that that was from God? By your own words, it's "more spiritual" than the Bible; it's even "more spiritual" than my writing about it on here! But if everyone were to go around saying, "X says they heard from God; whatever they say must be true because God spoke", then we'd all start believing all sorts of things and would change our faith every 5 minutes whenever anyone else came up with a new message.

You know many versions have words of Jesus in red. I like that because anything deviating from that is dangerous. Paul did the deviation on many accounts churning out convenient concepts to ignorant Gentiles. We also like his compromises because we were all Gentiles or Pagans before!

We need to test prophecies and test the spirits to discern what is from God and what isn't. And the way we test them is by reading and finding out what has already been revealed in Scripture - writings inspired by the Spirit of truth who reveals Jesus, the truth, to us and who does not make mistakes. Accept that or not; that's how it is. Arguing that it should not be that way, won't change anything.

The excerpts I have quoted from the book make clear on the compromise arguments of Paul.

 

[Righttruth]

As well as being a historian, Luke was Paul's comp[anion and doctor. So I would say that when he wrote his Gospel, and Acts, he not only had his own research to hand, but Paul's teachings and sayings.

The only reason you have for saying that Paul relied on his own inventions is that you feel you cannot not trust him - except for sometimes, when you agree with him.

No, Luke did not blindly propagate Paul's assumptions. Two examples: speaking gibberish and an interpreter and communion ritual based on Paul's assumption.

 

[Righttruth]

Don't you even trust those who heard the words of Jesus? So what's with the view that "hearing is more spiritual than reading/recording"?

Who heard the words of Jesus? Paul, no way! Therefore, I trust the words of the chosen apostles who recorded some of the them.

 

[Righttruth]

Sorry, but with respect, isn't this exactly what you are doing?
You say that Paul was called by Jesus, that he was his chosen one, was a saint and that sometimes you agree with, and quote, his words. Then Paul writes, "I was chosen by Christ to be an apostle", and you say, "it is not recorded anywhere that Jesus said to Paul 'you are my apostle', so Paul must have made that claim himself. Therefore, he was self appointed, therefore he was arrogant, told white lies and had his own agenda."
You have just said that "hearing is more spiritual than reading or recording"! The phrase "you are my apostle" has not been recorded in Scripture - though Paul may well have heard it. But because of that, you are dismissing many of Paul's words.

According to Bible, any claim should be attested by at least two witnesses. Paul's claims should be endorsed by at least two other sources. You don't find that! Paul himself claims that he is crafty and boastful. What do you expect from a man troubled by Satan's messenger?

 

[Righttruth]

And your point is? Luke is still a gospel.

Luke's Gospel is also useful. But you see the Gospel written by others is more useful since the chosen apostles were the source.

Jesus said we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. He then demonstrated how it is that we do that in the last supper when He declared the bread to be His flesh and the wine to be His blood. Again, I'll go with Jesus.

You appear to wait for His return to go after His body and blood again after what happened with crucifixion. If you really cared for Jesus' words you won't observe that as Paul recommended.

Matthew 26: 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

No, it's not. It's Paul dealing with sin in the church.

Sin is found everywhere. It is doesn't mean you should invent strategies for tackling that by hook or by crook methods.

No, I'm not telling Jesus to do anything. You're telling Jesus to call Paul an apostle, using that word specifically. I'm telling you that you need to show where Jesus called anyone an apostle, using that word specifically. Jesus called Paul His chosen vessel to carry the gospel to the Jews and the gentiles alike.

When Jesus specifically called Paul a chosen vessel after selecting twelve, Paul had no business to assume status that was meant for others.

Evidence, please. Cite your source. This is just your own self-claim.

Jerusalem Church and churches established by chosen apostles had both communal meal and communion. Paul asked the Corinthian congregation to have food in their homes and come for observance of communion nominally with sample materials. That is nominal ritual of Paul glorifying death.

That's really rich. You tell me I should reject everything written by Paul and Luke, and then point me toward the Acts according to Thomas and the Acts according to Peter. You tell me I should reject everything written by the early church fathers - yet you point me to apocryphal books that have been rejected by the church since it's early days.

I don't shun myself reading any book. All be subjected to scrutiny by the words of Jesus and that of the chosen apostles and people who were witness to His ministry.

I'll stick to the Canon of scripture that was chosen in the same way all major decisions were made in the early church - through much prayer, dependence on the Spirit, and discussion among the church leaders.

Then you should accept Catholic beliefs and traditions. After all, Protestantism is of recent origin comparatively.

 

[Righttruth]

And Paul's weren't. As has already been demonstrated from scripture, Paul is attested to by (1) Jesus Christ, (2) the Holy Spirit, and (3) the apostles and church leaders of His day, including a specific commendation by the apostle Peter. By calling him a false prophet, you defame every witness who commends him as well.

No one called Paul another apostle. That is bending backwards to accommodate Paul's spurious claim.

 

[Righttruth]

I cant say if it matters in that way or not, but it matters for other reasons. The scriptures are Gods gift to us, to help us in our struggles, to give us hope.

So they should complement one another, not new diversions.

 

[Extraneous]

So they should complement one another, not new diversions.

When i read them they do compliment each other, although they didnt always at first because i didnt understand many things. That's because God uses a spiritual language that we can only see when our eyes are opened.

As David said, open my eyes that i may see wondrous things in your law.

 

[Righttruth]

I know, but scriptures do say God will judge us all. Christ says many will call him Lord but they will be rejected. Im only maintaining my humbleness of mind, i believe its important in my spiritual walk. I have a certain level of confidence however, that im following the Lord.

We are simply believers and doing our best to please Him despite our encumbrances. However, Jesus' call is different:

Matthew 16
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 19
2 And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Can you see the differences in following. Multitude followed and were healed, but that doesn't mean they were saved.

 

[Righttruth]

That's not an answer. What transcendent standard do you and your church use to test truth claims?

We have a personal Savior. A church will not save. The words of the Word are of paramount importance. Paul's words written with the wisdom he had cannot be equated with Lord's words nor they can supersede them.

 

[Righttruth]

When i read them they do compliment each other, although they didnt always at first because i didnt understand many things. That's because God uses a spiritual language that we can only see when our eyes are opened.

As David said, open my eyes that i may see wondrous things in your law.

From that point of view, Paul extrapolated, interpolated and added many things unsupported by the words of Jesus and that of others.

 

[Extraneous]

We are simply believers and doing our best to please Him despite our encumbrances. However, Jesus' call is different:

Matthew 16
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 19
2 And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Can you see the differences in following. Multitude followed and were healed, but that doesn't mean they were saved.

I believe Christs miracles were like a shadow of Gods true purpose, which is to heal us from sin and death, and to open our spiritual eyes, to heal our spiritual blindness, deafness, lameness and raise us from the dead into eternal life. As far as selling everything we own goes, i believe in Christ command to not store treasure on earth, and i believe it has to do with healing our spiritual blindness, because Christ said that our heart would be wherever our treasure is, and that the eye is the lamp of the body, which refers to our spiritual sight. In Acts 4, we see a Church that did sell all they owned, and shared it as well, and we see Paul teaching this same thing in 2 Corinthians 8.

 

[Extraneous]

From that point of view, Paul extrapolated, interpolated and added many things unsupported by the words of Jesus and that of others.

Not the way i see it.

 

[redleghunter]

We have a personal Savior. A church will not save. The words of the Word are of paramount importance. Paul's words written with the wisdom he had cannot be equated with Lord's words nor they can supersede them.

Again a non answer. How do you test truth claims when there are opposing views as there was at the Jerusalem council?

Remember Christ left a church to shepherd the sheep.

 

[Righttruth]

I believe Christs miracles were like a shadow of Gods true purpose, which is to heal us from sin and death, and to open our spiritual eyes, to heal our spiritual blindness, deafness, lameness and raise us from the dead into eternal life. As far as selling everything we own goes, i believe in Christ command to not store treasure on earth, and i believe it has to do with healing our spiritual blindness, because Christ said that our heart would be wherever our treasure is, and that the eye is the lamp of the body, which refers to our spiritual sight. In Acts 4, we see a Church that did sell all they owned, and shared it as well,

Right.

and we see Paul teaching this same thing in 2 Corinthians 8.

No way it comes close to the call of Jesus. This is where Paul teaches organized collection of funds with rosy words. Therefore, Protestantism built a structure with a business zeal that is difficult to dismantle with all worldly expectations that go with that.

 

[Righttruth]

Not the way i see it.

You don't see Jesus and the truth when you allow Paul to eclipse Him.

 

[Righttruth]

Again a non answer. How do you test truth claims when there are opposing views as there was at the Jerusalem council?

It was basically solved by chosen apostles and other disciples who were part of the earthly ministry of Jesus.

Remember Christ left a church to shepherd the sheep.

With a warning of the arrival of false prophets. He did not hint at new writings to look for guidance.

 

[redleghunter]

It was basically solved by chosen apostles and other disciples who were part of the earthly ministry of Jesus.



With a warning of the arrival of false prophets. He did not hint at new writings to look for guidance.

How does your church resolve issues today? What transcendent standard do you use to test truth claims? I gather it can't be the Bible as you have tossed out over 70% of the NT.

Are you again accusing Paul of being a false teacher?