How should we read Paul?

[Extraneous]

It is simple. He was not in His ministry. He never heard the explanations of many parables.

The spirit guides me in all truth, and Pauls words are truth. Not to mention, Paul says we should agree with wholesome words, and the Words of Christ

 

[Righttruth]

Many people believe the Sermon on the Mount. believe that Jesus was a good moral teacher and they need to be nice people and do good to get to heaven. If that is ALL they believe, they won't.

OK. If people believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, yet don't believe His greatest Sermon on the Mount how can they expect to be saved? Mere belief is not an entrance to the heaven.

Sorry, but orthodoxy IS the truth. This thread is in Controversial Theology for a reason; it's sentiments are controversial. Some people may agree with you, but most Christians - and clergy in the churches - won't.

Which orthodoxy? Catholic, Protestant, Pentecostal, Baptist, Oriental, Coptic, Greek, Russian, etc.?

The orthodox belief that the NT was inspired by the Holy Spirit, that the Bible is the written word of God, inspired and inerrant, is the truth.

Why is that Catholics, Russian, etc. insist on traditions more than the written word?

[/quote]And I'm certainly not prepared to live my life in the hope that it might not be, that a man who was Jesus' own chosen one was misleading everyone and the Holy Spirit allowed it to happen.[/QUOTE]

Those who boast and egoist are bound to quench the Holy Spirit. The words of Jesus have eternal life.

 

[Righttruth]

No, i am not to dishonor anyone actually, that's what paul teaches us. That's the works of flesh verses fruit of the spirit i was talking about.

No Paul sits on the fence and want to preach populist agenda when it comes to relationship between children and parents.

Besides, the spirit guides us in all truth, and uses all scripture as well, but that includes pauls words too.

That is what I am saying. When Paul's words contradict the words of Christ, we need to ignore it. We cannot say that since dog's tail is bent the body should be made to bend too.

 

[Righttruth]

No. Paul teaches us that the spirit intercedes for us.

Right. That is when we are unable to put into words what we mean. But people have come up with wacky interpretations for that leading to wrong belief.

 

[Righttruth]

The spirit guides me in all truth, and Pauls words are truth. Not to mention, Paul says we should agree with wholesome words, and the Words of Christ

What if his words don't agree with Christ's?

 

[jerry kelso]

What if his words don't agree with Christ's?

righttruth,

Why don't you be specific of what words of Paul's words don't agree with Christ's? You do this and I'll tell you why. Jerry kelso

 

[Righttruth]

righttruth,

Why don't you be specific of what words of Paul's words don't agree with Christ's? You do this and I'll tell you why. Jerry kelso

Much of it can be read in my replies nos. 680, 726 and 741

 

[Strong in Him]

OK. If people believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, yet don't believe His greatest Sermon on the Mount how can they expect to be saved? Mere belief is not an entrance to the heaven.

No, I'm saying that some believe the Sermon on the Mount but don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God, nor that he died for their sins to give them eternal life. If they don't believe the latter, they won't be saved. Reading, and accepting, Jesus' teachings, like the Sermon on the Mount isn't enough. Someone could hear about Jesus and the cross, believe, repent and be saved without having even heard of the sermon on the mount.

Which orthodoxy? Catholic, Protestant, Pentecostal, Baptist, Oriental, Coptic, Greek, Russian, etc.?

Orthodox Christian belief = mainstream churches; denominations which believe the Nicene Creed and accept the Bible as God's word. Not cults, for example, which claim to be Christian but reject Christian teaching.

Those who boast and egoist are bound to quench the Holy Spirit. The words of Jesus have eternal life.

I didn't say otherwise, and I hope you're not calling me egotistical.
Jesus himself is the Life, John 14:6.

 

[nomadictheist]

"All who depend with full trust or confidence on the law are under a curse." That is a part statement ignoring the most important aspect. It would mean all who depend on the Law with full trust but don't adhere to it are under curse. Please don't think God gave Law to curse people. It is curse for those who don't practice it. Yes, it is difficult somewhat to keep some of them. Jesus commandments were much higher spiritually and difficult to maintain: not even in thoughts!

That's actually not a half statement. The Sermon on the Mount was not an institution of new commandments - it was getting people to realize the actual standard to which they were held under the law of Moses. They thought it was all about actually not going out and having sex with a woman other than your wife, or with somebody else's wife. Jesus said "nope - if you even think about it, you've already broken the law." They thought it was about killing someone. Jesus said "nope - if you're even angry with someone without cause, you've already broken the law."

Which is why everyone who puts their full trust and confidence on the law is under a curse. Because nobody could keep the whole law.

That said, the law was not sent to curse people. Nor did I say it was. The curse (death) was already there before the law was given. The law was to show people the standards for right and wrong and to "tutor" them until the time of Christ. It was not to save them.

Nobody is saved by the works of the law. It is only by the blood of the Lamb that we are declared righteous.

 

[Extraneous]

No Paul sits on the fence and want to preach populist agenda when it comes to relationship between children and parents.



That is what I am saying. When Paul's words contradict the words of Christ, we need to ignore it. We cannot say that since dog's tail is bent the body should be made to bend too.

Paul actually teaches that Children obey their parents, and im sure you are aware of that.

Your second statement doesn't reflect my intention. I meant to say that i should agree with pauls words because they are truth, just as all scripture is. Paul was a prophet who spoke Gods Word.

 

[Extraneous]

Right. That is when we are unable to put into words what we mean. But people have come up with wacky interpretations for that leading to wrong belief.

Yes, but those same people who would twist pauls words also twist all the scriptures, not just paul's words. This is exactly what peter said as well. They twist all scripture.

 

[Extraneous]

What if his words don't agree with Christ's?

They do agree though. Peter agrees with Pauls words as well

 

[Extraneous]

That's actually not a half statement. The Sermon on the Mount was not an institution of new commandments - it was getting people to realize the actual standard to which they were held under the law of Moses. They thought it was all about actually not going out and having sex with a woman other than your wife, or with somebody else's wife. Jesus said "nope - if you even think about it, you've already broken the law." They thought it was about killing someone. Jesus said "nope - if you're even angry with someone without cause, you've already broken the law."

Which is why everyone who puts their full trust and confidence on the law is under a curse. Because nobody could keep the whole law.

That said, the law was not sent to curse people. Nor did I say it was. The curse (death) was already there before the law was given. The law was to show people the standards for right and wrong and to "tutor" them until the time of Christ. It was not to save them.

Nobody is saved by the works of the law. It is only by the blood of the Lamb that we are declared righteous.

Nobody can keep the law perfectly, and by law im referring only to the law of Christ. However we still try to follow it. Sure my mind may wonder into sinful thoughts, but what do i do? Do i cast those thoughts out or do i just keep them instead, because im not under the law? Paul says to think about what is pure and lovely , true and noble. Paul is telling us to not think evil. However, no one is perfect and no one can have a mind totally free from evil. We walk by faith not sight, we try and we grow, but we are not perfect. Gods grace sustains us. THe commands in Mathew 5 guide me, and have guided me. I actually try to follow them, although i'm far from perfect, i must admit.

Im not looking to justify myself however, and i know only Gods mercy sustains this sinner. I follow those commands best i can because they are truth.

 

[NonTheologian]

Much of it can be read in my replies nos. 680, 726 and 741

Dear Brother “Righttruth”:

I actually printed all three of these replies out to study what you are saying (although for some reason they show as #679, #725, and #740 on my screen).

There is certainly a lot of well-thought out content. Focusing, however, on specific words of Paul’s that don’t agree with specific words of the Lord’s, it seems that your argument is as follows:

(a) According to Matthew, the Lord said, “Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven (23:9).

(b) Paul wrote, “For though ye have ten thousand instructers [sic] in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel” (1 Corinthians 4:14,15)

(c) The words Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 4:14,15 do not agree with the command Christ gave, as accounted in Matthew 23:9

(d) According to Matthew, the Lord said, “But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren (23:8)

(e) Paul wrote, “God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers (1 Corinthians 12:28)

(f) The words Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 12:28 do not agree with the command Christ gave, as accounted in Matthew 23:8

(g) Paul wrote of his own appointment as preacher, apostle, and teacher in 1 Timothy 2:7

(h) The words Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:7 do not agree with the command Christ gave, as accounted in Matthew 23:8

(i) Paul wrote of his own appointment as preacher, apostle, and teacher in 2 Timothy 1:11

(j) The words Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 1:11 do not agree with the command Christ gave, as accounted in Matthew 23:8

(k) According to Matthew, the Lord said, “But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you” (6:6)

(l) Paul wrote to the Corinthian church, “What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. Otherwise if you bless with the spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say the ‘Amen’ to the thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?"

(m) What Paul wrote to the Corinthian church above does not agree with the command that Christ gave, as accounted in Matthew 6:6.

(n) By any of (c), (f), (h), (j), or (m), it can be said that the words of Paul do not agree with certain commands of Christ.​

Am I correctly stating your premises and conclusion(s) in this particular area?

Thank you.

 

[nomadictheist]

Nobody can keep the law perfectly, and by law im referring only to the law of Christ. However we still try to follow it. Sure my mind may wonder into sinful thoughts, but what do i do? Do i cast those thoughts out or do i just keep them instead, because im not under the law? Paul says to think about what is pure and lovely , true and noble. Paul is telling us to not think evil. However, no one is perfect and no one can have a mind totally free from evil. We walk by faith not sight, we try and we grow, but we are not perfect. Gods grace sustains us. THe commands in Mathew 5 guide me, and have guided me. I actually try to follow them, although i'm far from perfect, i must admit.

Im not looking to justify myself however, and i know only Gods mercy sustains this sinner. I follow those commands best i can because they are truth.

I don't see how this relates to what I was discussing with "righttruth" concerning relying on the works of the law. I made no attempt to say that we are no longer supposed to try to obey God and Jesus, and neither does the apostle Paul. What I am doing is echoing Paul's thought that if our trust is in the works of the law we are under a curse, because we cannot keep the whole law.

 

[Extraneous]

I don't see how this relates to what I was discussing with "righttruth" concerning relying on the works of the law. I made no attempt to say that we are no longer supposed to try to obey God and Jesus, and neither does the apostle Paul. What I am doing is echoing Paul's thought that if our trust is in the works of the law we are under a curse, because we cannot keep the whole law.

Paul said he became all things to all men. Im merely trying to find a common ground of agreement. The sermon on the mount seems to be a focal point in this thread, the question being debated is whether Paul deviates from Christs commands. My post addresses the commands in Mathew 5, and it shows how Paul may have applied the spiritual understanding in how Christ taught those commands. I was actually agreeing with you that a person cannot obey the law perfectly. Im just trying to connect Pauls teaching to Christs teaching as much as i can, according to my limited understanding. Sorry i was a bit random, but its relevant to the discussion somewhat.

 

[Righttruth]

No, I'm saying that some believe the Sermon on the Mount but don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God, nor that he died for their sins to give them eternal life. If they don't believe the latter, they won't be saved. Reading, and accepting, Jesus' teachings, like the Sermon on the Mount isn't enough. Someone could hear about Jesus and the cross, believe, repent and be saved without having even heard of the sermon on the mount.



Orthodox Christian belief = mainstream churches; denominations which believe the Nicene Creed and accept the Bible as God's word. Not cults, for example, which claim to be Christian but reject Christian teaching.



I didn't say otherwise, and I hope you're not calling me egotistical.
Jesus himself is the Life, John 14:6.

 

[Righttruth]

Deleted

 

[Righttruth]

No, I'm saying that some believe the Sermon on the Mount but don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God, nor that he died for their sins to give them eternal life. If they don't believe the latter, they won't be saved. Reading, and accepting, Jesus' teachings, like the Sermon on the Mount isn't enough. Someone could hear about Jesus and the cross, believe, repent and be saved without having even heard of the sermon on the mount.

People wanted Jesus to become their king because He provided food for them. People want Jesus because He provides eternal life. They don't want His words. How can one expect salvation without believing His words?

Orthodox Christian belief = mainstream churches; denominations which believe the Nicene Creed and accept the Bible as God's word. Not cults, for example, which claim to be Christian but reject Christian teaching.

How politically motivated Nicene Creed can lead to salvation?

I didn't say otherwise, and I hope you're not calling me egotistical.
Jesus himself is the Life, John 14:6.

Christian life is not mere belief.

 

[Righttruth]

That's actually not a half statement. The Sermon on the Mount was not an institution of new commandments - it was getting people to realize the actual standard to which they were held under the law of Moses. They thought it was all about actually not going out and having sex with a woman other than your wife, or with somebody else's wife. Jesus said "nope - if you even think about it, you've already broken the law." They thought it was about killing someone. Jesus said "nope - if you're even angry with someone without cause, you've already broken the law."

So you think 'love your enemies' is not a commandment? That is preposterous to say the least!

Which is why everyone who puts their full trust and confidence on the law is under a curse. Because nobody could keep the whole law.

That was the beginning, and it was enough. Just because it was difficult for some to observe on some part of Law, it doesn't mean they were under curse for trusting the Law which was the only righteous path before Jesus came.

[/quote]That said, the law was not sent to curse people. Nor did I say it was. The curse (death) was already there before the law was given. The law was to show people the standards for right and wrong and to "tutor" them until the time of Christ. It was not to save them.[/quote]

In that case, Moses, David and many OT prophets went to hell.

Nobody is saved by the works of the law. It is only by the blood of the Lamb that we are declared righteous.

Noah and Abraham were considered righteous even before the Law was given.