How should we read Paul?

[Extraneous]

If Mark's Gospel was written in 60 A.D., that's roughly 30 years afterwards, not 60.

I don't know enough to say that all commentaries are wrong. Like I said, a) they thought that Jesus would be returning and b) there was a long established oral tradition. Had Jesus walked this earth in recent times, we'd all be rushing to share it on social media, in our blogs, or whatever. It wasn't like that then.

I think the apostles knew what the day of the Lord was, they were were more spiritual than the Church is today i believe. I think they knew that they would die before seeing the end of the world. However, its not worth debating because we really cant prove anything, so i guess i'll stop debating it

 

[jerry kelso]

The very fact you call Tom, Dick and Harry another apostle speaks volume of your mindset. The OT verse of blessing of Israel is invalid. Protestantism corrupted further with Quakers followed by Pentecostal people. All false claimers based on false apostle, Paul.

righttruth,
King of opinions and still no scriptural facts or contexts to prove anything. You keep stereotyping me with Pentecostal people when many pentecostal don't even understand the KOH and the KOG message which is a part of the dispensational context.
You thought I was more of a UPC and that shows you are making up things and don't have a clue. No wonder you don't want to engage in real and true scriptural debate and rebuttal. Who are you trying to convince that you your posts are viable scriptural facts?
You call Paul a false apostle and yet the other apostles embraced him. Are you going to call Peter and the other 11 false apostles that they would sanction a false apostle? After all, Jesus selected these twelve and don't you believe they were the only true apostles?
If all you are going to do with is stating your opinion about everything leave it at that and not try to convince that is the word of God. Jerry kelso

 

[Righttruth]

I was only attempting to suggest that maybe your understanding of numbers according to tribes might not be accurate.

I am taking it as it stands. It hardly matters for me.

 

[Righttruth]

Of course not, but that wasnt my point though.

Paul won't any credit for this. It only complements.

 

[Extraneous]

Paul won't any credit for this. It only complements.

Im not trying to give Paul credit. all glory belongs to the Lord. What im saying however is that God gave Paul spiritual sight. Even Paul himself teaches us not to glory in men, but to Glory only in the Lord. Paul rebukes people for following men rather than God. He encourages us to walk in the spirit, which is the New Covenant promise that God gave in the OT.

 

[Righttruth]

Paul's epistles were written before the gospels.

It was free self-claims with ignorant Gentiles. All later writings, therefore, should be seen as clarifications on his speculations.

The truth about the God of truth is in the Bible, which was inspired by the Spirit of truth.
But you won't accept that. You reject that Jesus' chosen instrument was inspired by the Holy Spirit, or maybe sometimes, but mostly not, yet you claim that the Holy Spirit inspires you to read books that contain the truth also but which were not included in Scripture.

God's truth is heard which is invisible like God. The Holy Spirit will remind on words of Jesus. Canon is man made. God cannot be seen in the letters of a book even if one applied a microscope.

Well if you're prepared to tell the Lord one day that his chosen man was "tickling people's ears" and preaching "goodies" and "sugar coated teachings"; go ahead. It is entirely inconsistent to say that Paul was chosen by the Lord Jesus and a saint and you accept some of Paul's teachings, but that he was also a false apostle, arrogant and a man with his own agenda.
If he was false you can't trust him; yet he, an untrustworthy man, was chosen and called by Jesus. If he was false, then the Holy Spirit shouldn't have led people to put his letters in the Bible. If he was false, then the churches wouldn't believe him, and anyone who read his words would be led astray, confused or damned - because the thief comes to steal and destroy. Yet thousands are edified by his writings which have brought life, hope and truth to us.

Christendom is going to dogs. Many are entering the wide gate to destruction, some of them forcibly.

Yes, but your definition of the Gospel is the words of Jesus. You seem to say that it is the words of Jesus, alone, that save - and anyone who wasn't around to hear them when they were spoken, is false and not preaching the Gospel. That is incorrect. We are saved from our sin by the cross, not by the sermon on the mount. You won't accept that view, but it is truth and orthodox Christian doctrine.

If you don't believe the Sermon on the Mount, you are not a believer in Jesus. Orthodoxy may not mean the truth. Don't you know that it is orthodox Jews who brayed for the blood of Jesus?

 

[Righttruth]

The dictionary definition of rely is as follows:

depend on with full trust or confidence

That's the definition I have for rely. And anyone who uses the word rely should be assumed to have the same meaning.

So that particular translation of the Greek reads "All who depend with full trust or confidence on the law are under a curse." Once again, where is their trust and confidence? In the law. But the law says that whoever does not do everything written in the law is cursed, and as Jesus Himself shows us we cannot do everything written in the law. So anyone whose trust and confidence is in the law is under a curse.

"All who depend with full trust or confidence on the law are under a curse." That is a part statement ignoring the most important aspect. It would mean all who depend on the Law with full trust but don't adhere to it are under curse. Please don't think God gave Law to curse people. It is curse for those who don't practice it. Yes, it is difficult somewhat to keep some of them. Jesus commandments were much higher spiritually and difficult to maintain: not even in thoughts!

 

[Righttruth]

Not exactly. Paul heard the Gospel message. We dont have any of the original documents, so who can actually say when the gospels were written? Dont you think that believers would have written down Christs words pretty quickly? I do,

Paul never heard Gospel from Jesus during His ministry. People demand quick results. Do you have the patience to wait for His return? The Holy Spirit is there all the time now. Whether writings are old or new, we are helped.

 

[Extraneous]

"All who depend with full trust or confidence on the law are under a curse." That is a part statement ignoring the most important aspect. It would mean all who depend on the Law with full trust but don't adhere to it are under curse. Please don't think God gave Law to curse people. It is curse for those who don't practice it. Yes, it is difficult somewhat to keep some of them. Jesus commandments were much higher spiritually and difficult to maintain: not even in thoughts!

The way Christ teaches the commands of God are meant to show us what it means to obey from the heart, rather than just an outward appearance of obedience. God desires our whole heart, thus the command to love God with all our heart. However, we are not under the law of sin and death, nor are we under the Law of Moses either. Gods will is still found in some of the OT law, but we need not follow the OT law anymore, because everything God wants us to obey is given in the new testament. Paul teaches us in Galatians 5-6 that we must not sow to the flesh but instead the spirit.

Its really just a matter of understanding works of the flesh and the fruit of the spirit. Galatians alone can leave someone a bit puzzled, as if all we must do is love our neighbor, but paul makes it clear that we will not bear fruit if we sow to our flesh by doing evil works. Christ teaches us to abide in him, and only then can we bear fruit, and thats what Paul is trying to teach the Galatians Church.

Its about doing good instead of evil, but the NT teaches that concept on a much higher and spiritual plain because it also teaches us about the spirit of God. All we must do is read all of Pauls writings and we will see that he preaches repentance from evil works, and teaches us love as well. Paul never deviates from the commands of Christ, never.

 

[Extraneous]

Paul never heard Gospel from Jesus during His ministry. People demand quick results. Do you have the patience to wait for His return? The Holy Spirit is there all the time now. Whether writings are old or new, we are helped.

How do you know Paul never heard it?

 

[Righttruth]

righttruth,
King of opinions and still no scriptural facts or contexts to prove anything. You keep stereotyping me with Pentecostal people when many pentecostal don't even understand the KOH and the KOG message which is a part of the dispensational context.

I have made it clear that 'dispensational' context is a delusion.

You thought I was more of a UPC and that shows you are making up things and don't have a clue. No wonder you don't want to engage in real and true scriptural debate and rebuttal. Who are you trying to convince that you your posts are viable scriptural facts?
You call Paul a false apostle and yet the other apostles embraced him. Are you going to call Peter and the other 11 false apostles that they would sanction a false apostle? After all, Jesus selected these twelve and don't you believe they were the only true apostles?
If all you are going to do with is stating your opinion about everything leave it at that and not try to convince that is the word of God. Jerry kelso

No other chosen apostle called Paul an apostle, let alone divisive apostle for the Gentile. John makes it clear that additional apostles are liars. Scholarly Paul overwhelmed the semi-literate chosen apostles and hoodwinked gullible Gentiles.

 

[Righttruth]

Im not trying to give Paul credit. all glory belongs to the Lord. What im saying however is that God gave Paul spiritual sight. Even Paul himself teaches us not to glory in men, but to Glory only in the Lord. Paul rebukes people for following men rather than God. He encourages us to walk in the spirit, which is the New Covenant promise that God gave in the OT.

Then why did he ask people to imitate him distracting from Jesus Christ? Repetition by rote is not a big thing.

 

[Extraneous]

Then why did he ask people to imitate him distracting from Jesus Christ? Repetition by rote is not a big thing.

Paul teaches us to follow his example, and those who also walk that way, because they follow Christ. Hes teaching by example, just as he is supposed to. He points to Christ in all things, even his own example is that of one who follows Christ

 

[Extraneous]

Paul command people to glory only in God, paul also teaches the same commands Christ gave us. Paul also leads by example, just as hes supposed to. He doesn't lead anyone away from Christ. If anyone is lead away its because they didnt listen to Paul. I listened to Paul and i never let any one else teach me, besides Christ and the the Other NT apostles. I follow Christ because i listen to them, instead of other People. Its because Paul said to follow him that i dont listen to other teachers. Paul warned that false teachers would lead many astray, and that is what happens when they dont study and keep the words of Paul, and the Lord, of course. Thats exactly why he says to follow him. People however instead follow these preachers we have today, and many of them are not teaching correctly, in my opinion. Paul saved me from false teachers, he lead me in the right direction.

 

[Righttruth]

The way Christ teaches the commands of God are meant to show us what it means to obey from the heart, rather than just an outward appearance of obedience. God desires our whole heart, thus the command to love God with all our heart. However, we are not under the law of sin and death, nor are we under the Law of Moses either. Gods will is still found in some of the OT law, but we need not follow the OT law anymore, because everything God wants us to obey is given in the new testament. Paul teaches us in Galatians 5-6 that we must not sow to the flesh but instead the spirit.

In that case, are you allowed to dishonor your parents and commit adultery? There is no escape from death for sin even under the new covenant. The big change is atonement for sin is by repentance and not by animal sacrifice or outward ritual because we should keep the Law spiritually. We are no longer in the shadow of Law but in spiritual light.

Its really just a matter of understanding works of the flesh and the fruit of the spirit. Galatians alone can leave someone a bit puzzled, as if all we must do is love our neighbor, but paul makes it clear that we will not bear fruit if we sow to our flesh by doing evil works. Christ teaches us to abide in him, and only then can we bear fruit, and thats what Paul is trying to teach the Galatians Church.

We should bear fruit abiding in Him. Without that no salvation. Jesus will not bear fruit for you.

Its about doing good instead of evil, but the NT teaches that concept on a much higher and spiritual plain because it also teaches us about the spirit of God. All we must do is read all of Pauls writings and we will see that he preaches repentance from evil works, and teaches us love as well. Paul never deviates from the commands of Christ, never.

Not all the time, and he deviated our focus on Jesus onto him--a great distraction.

 

[Righttruth]

How do you know Paul never heard it?

It is simple. He was not in His ministry. He never heard the explanations of many parables.

 

[Righttruth]

Paul teaches us to follow his example, and those who also walk that way, because they follow Christ. Hes teaching by example, just as he is supposed to. He points to Christ in all things, even his own example is that of one who follows Christ

That is equivalent to Catholics having Mary as intercessor.

 

[Strong in Him]

If you don't believe the Sermon on the Mount, you are not a believer in Jesus. Orthodoxy may not mean the truth. Don't you know that it is orthodox Jews who brayed for the blood of Jesus?

Many people believe the Sermon on the Mount. believe that Jesus was a good moral teacher and they need to be nice people and do good to get to heaven. If that is ALL they believe, they won't.

Sorry, but orthodoxy IS the truth. This thread is in Controversial Theology for a reason; it's sentiments are controversial. Some people may agree with you, but most Christians - and clergy in the churches - won't.
The orthodox belief that the NT was inspired by the Holy Spirit, that the Bible is the written word of God, inspired and inerrant, is the truth. And I'm certainly not prepared to live my life in the hope that it might not be, that a man who was Jesus' own chosen one was misleading everyone and the Holy Spirit allowed it to happen.

 

[Extraneous]

In that case, are you allowed to dishonor your parents and commit adultery?

No, i am not to dishonor anyone actually, that's what paul teaches us. That's the works of flesh verses fruit of the spirit i was talking about.

Besides, the spirit guides us in all truth, and uses all scripture as well, but that includes pauls words too.

 

[Extraneous]

That is equivalent to Catholics having Mary as intercessor.

No. Paul teaches us that the spirit intercedes for us.