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How should Christians Vote?

SepiaAndDust

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I believe God has removed His protection and blessings from our country. Look for calamity to increase.

The more I keep hearing that, the more I keep not seeing it.

We can cure the Black Death with a pill, we can raise the dead (sometimes), we can instantly talk to people--even see them--who are on the other side of the world, we've walked on the moon, violent crime is at historic lows. That's the kind of calamity I can get behind!
 
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Calminian

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The synagogue authority was a local authority over a place of meeting who had the power to disciple the people who met there. This is different from being under the authority of a particular group of Jews who were wanting people to follow their traditions in order to be saved, and it is this authority that Paul called Peter out for not rejecting. The Jerusalem Council was another authority which Paul accepted. While not everyone agrees with whether Romans 13 refers to a religious and secular authority, I have seen no survey to speak of the opinion of most Messianic Jews on this matter.

I attend Kehilat Sar Shalom: http://rabbiyeshua.com/

If you have a synagog that's been given authority by the government they reside in, then yes Paul would recognize their given authority. But he was a Roman citizen and believed he was under their ultimate authority.

And yes, virtually all agree that were are to submit to the governing authority of the land we live in. I can almost guarantee you your church believes this.
 
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Calminian

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The more I keep hearing that, the more I keep not seeing it.

We can cure the Black Death with a pill, we can raise the dead (sometimes), we can instantly talk to people--even see them--who are on the other side of the world, we've walked on the moon, violent crime is at historic lows. That's the kind of calamity I can get behind!

I think by and large we are a safe nation to live in, with the exception of killing the unborn. I'm not sure the wall of protection has been lifted yet, but looking at Europe, I'm very concerned. They're under siege.
 
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Calminian

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Reagan was a Lone Ranger Christian. He did not attend church, did not give to a church, he accepted instructions from his wife who consulted an astrologer. Yep he carried out Gods purposes. But God will have His purposes attended to by whom ever He so desires. Even Jimmy Carter carried out gods purposes. President Obama God has allowed to him to give the people just what they are asking for and want. That being said expect calamity to increase more and more. Yes God has permitted our Highest Court to make killing babies legal. God has permitted the Highest Court to say homosexuality unions to be called equal to a man and a woman union called marriage. God has said marriage is only between a man and a woman. But our Highest Court has stated the Laws of God will not rule our country.

I believe God has removed His protection and blessings from our country. Look for calamity to increase.

Yeah, and I think Reagan vs. Carter makes my case in my OP. Many of the decisions we're making now (I say we, because 'We The People' put these leaders in office) are going to store up God's wrath.
 
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expos4ever

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For me, soteriological stances are the last place I'd look in making my choice. Jimmy Carter was a born-again Christian and was a disaster at carrying out God's purposes for government. And I don't know if Reagan was a Christian, but he was excellent at carrying out God's purposes. He ministered to the nation by showing strength.
Romans 13 is certainly not an endorsement of the use of strength (specifically the use of military force) on the part of governments. However, I can see why a reading of Romans 13, uninformed by broader Biblical principles would lead to that conclusion. Romans 13, I suggest, expresses Paul's view that while worldly governments are invariably corrupt and wicked, they are better than anarchy. But that is hardly an argument to support the kind of government that does something that we know for other Biblical reasons that is at odds with the Kingdom of God agenda, namely the use of the sword.

The Bible is full of examples of God using wicked governments (e.g. the King of Assyria) to accomplish His purposes. But, again, this is hardly grounds to conclude that God likes evil governments. If we can participate in the election of a government that follows Jesus' pacifistic model, that's much better.

Jesus tells Pilate (John 18) that He (Jesus) is a King. And that His followers are not using force to rescue Him precisely because these followers are citizens of the Jesus' kingdom - one where the swords a laid down. So it makes no sense at all to imagine that Jesus would prefer us to vote for a leader who uses military strength - in fact, much of Jesus' ministry consisted in telling His fellow Jews that they should resist the use of force against their Roman overlords.

Perhaps I am jumping to conclusions that you mean military strength when you laud Reagan as a good President. But the gospels clearly show that the way of might and power is roundly rejected by Jesus. So, yes, we need to obey governments, and yes they can be used by God. But, and this where Biblical precedent matters, we know that many governments used by God were awful.

Given the choice, we should vote for a government that honours the teaching of the real King. And that King said this:

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
 
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SepiaAndDust

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I think by and large we are a safe nation to live in, with the exception of killing the unborn. I'm not sure the wall of protection has been lifted yet, but looking at Europe, I'm very concerned. They're under siege.

When has Europe not been?
 
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expos4ever

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Give to Caesar what is Caesar's.
While I completely understand your use of this phrase, I have come to believe that it has been widely misunderstood. I can get into the details if you like, but I believe Jesus was being "sarcastic" (probably not the right word) and was effectively saying: "nothing belongs to Caesar, only God is king". Either way, that does not, in my view, mean we are not to follow Pual's advice in Romans 13.
 
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expos4ever

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Without an ultimate authority, you have chaos, and that will not work with God's design.
I agree, but, for reasons set out in a longer post above, I believe that while God does not want chaos, He would prefer a government that follows "Kingdom of God" principles (i.e. rejection of the use of force) to one that uses the sword. But, granted, one that uses the sword is better than anarchy.
 
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Soyeong

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If you have a synagog that's been given authority by the government they reside in, then yes Paul would recognize their given authority. But he was a Roman citizen and believed he was under their ultimate authority.

And yes, virtually all agree that were are to submit to the governing authority of the land we live in. I can almost guarantee you your church believes this.

I completely agree that we should submit to governing authorities, I just think that that not what Paul was talking about in Romans 13. Paul clearly came under the authority of the Jerusalem Council, so it is false that he only was under Roman authority or directly under God. According to Exodus 18, there were local people set up with the authority to make judgements and this authority continued up through the time of Messiah, and Paul recognized this authority.
 
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farout

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The more I keep hearing that, the more I keep not seeing it.

We can cure the Black Death with a pill, we can raise the dead (sometimes), we can instantly talk to people--even see them--who are on the other side of the world, we've walked on the moon, violent crime is at historic lows. That's the kind of calamity I can get behind!
Look at the amount of floods, and tornadoes, earth quakes, school shootings, hate crimes and other life ending things. You did not see such school shootings in 1950,60,70, 80, 90. Earthquakes have increased, even in spots seldom seen before, flooding is much more than before. Hate crimes, and especially with ISIS in the US. Churches are being burned, pastors shot. People attending church services are killed or attacked. This should awaken most people to see there is a change. Do you see any of these things?
 
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tulc

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Look at the amount of floods, and tornadoes, earth quakes, school shootings, hate crimes and other life ending things. You did not see such school shootings in 1950,60,70, 80, 90. Earthquakes have increased, even in spots seldom seen before, flooding is much more than before. Hate crimes, and especially with ISIS in the US. Churches are being burned, pastors shot. People attending church services are killed or attacked. This should awaken most people to see there is a change. Do you see any of these things?

I'm curious if you have proof any of the above is worse now then it was then? :scratch:
tulc(or has the 24 hr news cycle just made it more known today?)
 
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SepiaAndDust

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You did not see such school shootings in 1950,60,70, 80, 90.

Yeah, you did. Look up Greencastle, PA. If that doesn't count, then try Olean, NY and Spanaway, WA.


Earthquakes have increased, even in spots seldom seen before

Not really. If earthquakes seem to have increased, it's because we're better at detecting them, more people are gathered in more parts of the world, and we get the news instantly.


flooding is much more than before.

Again, not really. Same reasons as for the supposed increase in earthquakes.


Hate crimes, and especially with ISIS in the US. Churches are being burned, pastors shot. People attending church services are killed or attacked. This should awaken most people to see there is a change.

You must've missed the 50s and 60s. Not to mention the 1850s and 1860s.


Do you see any of these things?

Not really.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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Look at the amount of floods, and tornadoes, earth quakes, school shootings, hate crimes and other life ending things. You did not see such school shootings in 1950,60,70, 80, 90. Earthquakes have increased, even in spots seldom seen before, flooding is much more than before. Hate crimes, and especially with ISIS in the US. Churches are being burned, pastors shot. People attending church services are killed or attacked. This should awaken most people to see there is a change. Do you see any of these things?


In 1927 there was a school bombing in Michigan.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

"And if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
 
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expos4ever

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"And if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
That text, understood in context, does not mean what it otherwise appears to mean.

In context, Jesus is telling His followers to arm themselves as part of a ploy to get Himself arrested. He is certainly not advocating the use of the sword for general "self-defence" purpose and thereby contradicting what he says in John 18 and other places.
 
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RDKirk

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At the time when Romans was written, the Church was under synagogue authority and met in synagogues (Acts 15:21). In the surrounding chapters, Paul was addressing how they should live as a community of believers, and Romans 13 is no different. Whether this is the type of government that Christians should seek to be under is again another issue, but you should not expect a secular government to act as a religious authority.

The Roman church would not have been meeting in a synagogue. In the few years prior to Paul's letter, there weren't even any Jews in Rome--they had been expelled by Claudius and had just recently been permitted back. During that expulsion, the Gentile Roman Christians were running the congregation on their own. We know from the letter itself that the church was meeting in the house of Aquila and Priscilla with no hint of such "synagogue authority" in Paul's end greetings. Nor was there a synagogue at all in Philippi, by the way. We know from Acts there was no synagogue in Philippi, and we know from secular history that the expulsion of Jews from Rome had also applied to Philippi.

Moreover, 1 Peter is certainly not speaking of obedience to a religious authority, but certainly a secular one.

The error is in presuming that either Romans 13 or 1 Peter mandate fealty of Christians to any human government. They do not. Rather, as ambassadors of the kingdom of heaven to the various nations of the world, Christians are to obey their laws, honor their officials, and pay the taxes levied on us...but we owe them nothing but love.

What we should expect as diplomats of Heaven is given in 1 Timothy: That we are allowed to live in peace and quiet in Godliness. Just that, only that, because that's all our mission in these nations requires from them.

Edit: I'm guessing from one of your later posts that by "synagogue" you really just mean a local Christian congregation rather than direct connection to an existing Jewish synagogue. Okay, if that's the case.
 
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RDKirk

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Yeah, and I think Reagan vs. Carter makes my case in my OP. Many of the decisions we're making now (I say we, because 'We The People' put these leaders in office) are going to store up God's wrath.

So what did the our fellow Christian countrymen in Nigeria, North Korea, China, and Pakistan do that was so wrong to have earned "God's wrath" that their life sucks so much more than that of Christians in America?

But in a way, our fellow countrymen in North Korea have been victorious. Kim Jong Un appears to have realized that after more than two generations of brutal oppression that has failed to wipe them out, it's a better strategy to co-opt them with a North Korean Orthodox Church that he can monitor and control.
 
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RDKirk

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Romans 13 is certainly not an endorsement of the use of strength (specifically the use of military force) on the part of governments. However, I can see why a reading of Romans 13, uninformed by broader Biblical principles would lead to that conclusion. Romans 13, I suggest, expresses Paul's view that while worldly governments are invariably corrupt and wicked, they are better than anarchy. But that is hardly an argument to support the kind of government that does something that we know for other Biblical reasons that is at odds with the Kingdom of God agenda, namely the use of the sword.

The Bible is full of examples of God using wicked governments (e.g. the King of Assyria) to accomplish His purposes. But, again, this is hardly grounds to conclude that God likes evil governments. If we can participate in the election of a government that follows Jesus' pacifistic model, that's much better.

You're basically correct in your understanding, but here is the problem: Once upon a time, lions lay in peace with lambs and sharks swam in peace with seals. That was then, this is now: This is a fallen world. Survival on this earth from the microscopic level on up to humankind is by tooth and claw because of the Fall. The kings of this fallen world maintain their wealth and power and keep their order by the sword, and it will be a fallen world until the Lord remakes it in the Future Age. and just as the lion is given permission by God to eat the lamb in this fallen world, kings are given permission by God to maintain order with the sword in this fallen world.

But Jesus is not a liar: "All who live by the sword will die by the sword." Every lion dies and every kingdom falls. Egypt fell, Assyria fell, Nineveh fell, Babylon fell, Persia fell, Greece fell, and the vestiges of the Roman Empire--of which the United States is one--will also fall (notice I expressed that in the future tense).

What is the Body of Christ in all this?

They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. -- John 17.
But our citizenship is in heaven. -- Philippians 3
Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ.... -- 2 Corinthians 5

To God's selected ones, aliens dispersed throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia [the world], who have been selected according to the foreknowlege of God the Father [not by random chance or by fickle whim, but by a deliberately conceived plan], through the sanctifying work of the Spirit [prepared for the mission], to be obedient to Jesus Christ [the commander of our mission] and sprinkled with His blood [wearing the distinctive uniform of His forces]... 1 Peter 1

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. -- 1 Peter 2

Oh, man. This is the team speech...I get kind of choked up reading it ("We are the Titans!"). Peter started acknowledging that we are scattered, dispersed through the world, then points out that even though physically scattered, we are actually an integrated body, given a specific mission to perform: To declare Him who selected and saved us, to encourage defectors from the nations of this world and to give them asylum.

Peter harkens to Daniel 10 to call Jesus the Living (uncut) Stone--a stone which is rough, unhewn, unshaped. Of course an uncut stone is rejected by the builder because it doesn't fit. Yet he says that Jesus is both cornerstone and capstone of His own house.

You have to get the paradox Peter is presenting here. The cornerstone and capstone must be the most carefully cut stones of all, yet Jesus is the cornerstone and capstone of an entire house of uncut stones...a house that is wholly rejected by human architects of society because it does not meet the approval of the world's homeowner's association.

Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. 12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. -- 1 Peter 2

Now after identifying what we are--unified members of a nation deliberately dispersed through the world to carry out Christ's mission levied upon us--Peter gets to his main purpose of the letter. This letter is actually a Field Manual for how citizens of Heaven are to relate as ambassadors of Christ to the natives of this world (and he warns us that they will think it strange that our ways are not their ways).

The next few verses of Peter's letter sound a lot like Ephesians 6, but it's not. Ephesians 6 was about how Christians should relate to Christians. Peter is talking about how Christians should relate to pagans (even if married to a pagan).

And that is what Paul is doing in Romans 13. Paul acknowledges that human kings have permission from God to use the sword to keep order in this fallen world.

But Christians are citizens of Heaven deployed to these nations on a mission of limited duration--then we're going home.

As diplomats assigned to a host country, we're bound by our Commander to a "Status of Forces Agreement" with the host country.

When I was in the military assigned overseas, we were also bound by a "Status of Forces Agreement"--a SOFA. The SOFA required us to:

1. Obey their laws
2. Honor their officials
3. If we lived in off base ("in the 'ville") to pay the taxes they levied on us.

Which is precisely what Paul gives us in Romans.

Yet, as soldiers overseas these rules did not cause us to think we were citizens of those countries. We always knew we were there to perform a mission of limited duration, not to "go native."

Nor is "going native" expected of citizens of Heaven. We continue to be "aliens, pilgrims, and sojourers."

Our models are people like Joseph, Daniel, Mordechai, Ezra, and Nehemiah. They worked in nations that they never accepted as "home," and even achieved high status...but they always maintained their "otherness."

Daniel became a top official of Babylon, yet his "otherness" was so clear--he kept himself so detached from being a "Babylonian"--that when the Persians conquered Babylon, he slid right into the same job for the new king. He and his comrades had never become "Babylonian."

They never "went native." They were always aliens, pilgrims, and sojourners.
 
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NothingIsImpossible

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Well first I think as christians we should put political labels on ourselves like Republican, Democrat...etc. Because both parties do unbiblical things today. And adding labels just causes rifts between christians. As it is we have enough rifts due to different denominations. We should however vote based on christian views. Like what is a candidates view on lets say abortion. Though again, christians have changed so many are pro-choice. So technically they are not voting according to bible values. But whatever. I also just vote for the "lesser" evil out. One that at least has some things they can do that may improve things. But usually if candidate is pro-choice for example, I automatically will not vote for them. Even if they are christian and want nothing but the best for out country.
 
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Hank77

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That text, understood in context, does not mean what it otherwise appears to mean.

In context, Jesus is telling His followers to arm themselves as part of a ploy to get Himself arrested. He is certainly not advocating the use of the sword for general "self-defence" purpose and thereby contradicting what he says in John 18 and other places.
You maybe correct about this, but the verse before seems to give another meaning to it.
Luk 22:35 And he said to them, `When I sent you without bag, and scrip, and sandals, did ye lack anything?' and they said, `Nothing.'

So this wording 'but now' tells me that something has changed, or will be changing soon, in the circumstances. Before they didn't need these things, 'but now' they will.
 
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