How Quick we are to Judge!

[mpshiel]

Because the polygamists have already filed lawsuits in Utah based on the actions of gay marriage advocates.
And because once the barriers to polygamy and gay marriage go down, so do the barriers to incestuous marriage.
Because no matter how much trouble the current state of marriage is in, it will not be fixed by adding more chaos to the mix. Attempts to justify major societal upheavels on the marriage front by saying "Look how many heterosexual marriages end in divorce" is like arguing all safety gear should be removed from cars since some people are gonna die anyway.
The American people are a fair minded people. We hear the argument re unmarried households being allowed tax and propertry breaks and we understand 'em and for the most part we're inclined to grant them. We're not interested in having one of our most cherished institutions trashed in the process, especially since it will weaken marriage and put successive generations at risk by lessening the number of good role models available.
"But what about the good homosexual marriages that will result?" the activists ask. Sorry, that won't undo the harm done by debasing the meaning of the word in the eyes of millions. Gay marriage will not make heterosexual marriage stronger, and heterosexual marriage is vitally needed to keep this society on an even keel.
"But what about Sweden? What about the Netherlands?" Yeah, what about 'em? I see nothing in those countries I want to emulate here. They've got high drug use, high sucide rates, high psychological and spiritual illness, and their populations are shrinking.
If you (rhetorical) want gay marriage, be prepared for Islam to win by default in a century or two.

In your comments all I hear is fear: If gays marry, marriage won't mean anything; if gays marry, Islam wins; if gays marry our population shrinks (by the by ALL western countries including the US are below the 2.1 children needed to maintain a population without immigration); if gays marry we will be like countries that allow it (which includes countries from New Zealand, France, German, UK, Spain very soon); if gays marry we will be helpless to stop brothers and sisters and parents and children from marrying.....etc.

Calm down, take a deep breath. Disaster panicking never really help anyone nor does it (or anything) ever come out as we expect.

1) Gay couples are already committed to each other and whether the name applied to that is marriage, civil union, or abomination - I would expect it to continue happening for the forseeable future.

2) The bible does not specifically deal with what name and exactly what rights may or may not be given to a same sex committed couple. You may find interpretations on homosexuality in general, views on marriage in general, views on how Christ wants us to treat other human beings in general but the bible does not specifically tell us: pass this law, pass that law. You are effectively, going to have to make up your own mind; yes with the understanding and training you have taken from your religion but at the end of the day it is YOUR interpretation and YOUR responsibility for that outcome.

3) Yes, it is unsettling and confusing; all change is unsettling and confusing. Especially when people can't agree on what the change means. And you know what, you could be wrong on this, I could be wrong about this, we could all be considered ignorant to the obvious solution from a perspective 50 years down the road. We have to accept that: this is where our understanding it; that it will probably change or be amended at some point and try to do the best we can.

That's all I'm asking: step up, make the best decision, not out of panick or fear but as calmly and rationally as possible, with sincerely.

 

[k]

Bad people can be good role models. For instance Paul is worthy to be imitated (1 Cor 4:16) even though he is the worst person of all (1 Timothy 1:15).
In our actions there may be some expression of grace and some demonstration of faith. (And if we have not grace there may be some expression of law in external order which can help to lead others to grace - not that we will do this deliberately.)

Excellent point about Paul!! It seems many people forget what he did when he was Saul. Could one imagine that happening today? Sooo many people would probably be like, "Dude, that's okay, I'll find God another way."

What I was trying to express is that in my understanding there are no good or bad people because we are all sinners. Obviously, we can recognize good or bad actions as people harm one another, but I think the judgment of a "good" or "bad" person should be reserved for Christ.

 

[robot23]

We're not interested in having one of our most cherished institutions trashed in the process, especially since it will weaken marriage and put successive generations at risk by lessening the number of good role models available.

so gays can't be good role models and gay marriage willo trash marriage as an institution?
nice
nice and tolerant christian thought
its bigotry and ignorance
plain and simple

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Because the polygamists have already filed lawsuits in Utah based on the actions of gay marriage advocates.
And because once the barriers to polygamy and gay marriage go down, so do the barriers to incestuous marriage.

The main problem I see with polygamy is that as practiced by splinter LDS it has strong coersive tendencies. I would like to see some stability studies on non-LDS polygamy as well as studies of children raised in those settings.
As I have written elsewhere, and as written by a U.S. Supreme Crt Justice
in his dissent from the decision upholding the Georgia anti-sodomy law, the state maintains an overriding interest due to both genetics and the problems caused by the preexisting relationship for sibling-sibling and parent-child incest.

"But what about the good homosexual marriages that will result?" the activists ask. Sorry, that won't undo the harm done by debasing the meaning of the word in the eyes of millions.

There is no evidence of that in Scandinevia [sp?]

"But what about Sweden? What about the Netherlands?" Yeah, what about 'em? I see nothing in those countries I want to emulate here. They've got high drug use, high sucide rates, high psychological and spiritual illness, and their populations are shrinking.

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF4/455.html
[size=+1] Native and non-Native suicide rates among northern Alaska males in the age group 15 to 24 is roughly twice that of peers in the United States, but among females in the same age group the rate is ten times the U.S. rate in the peer group.

I note that the other states with high suicide rates are also northern states, Minnesota, various New England states, couldn't have anything to do with those long dark winters could have something to do with it?

http://www.stefangeens.com/000302.html
gives teh following suicide rates:
[/size]Sweden: .15.9 (1996)
USA:.......13.9 (1998)
Danmark: 18.4 (1996)
Finland: ..28.4 (1998)
France: ..20.0 (1998)
Holland: ..11.0 (1999)
Norway: ..14.6 (1997)
Spain ......8.7 (1998)
Switzerland: 22.5 (1996)
[size=+1]
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2001-02-21-teens-drugs-europe.htm
(14 and 15 year olds)
[/size]marijuana or hashish.....41.......16
amphetamines.............16........6 (any other illicit drug)
LSD...........................10
tobacco.....................26.......37
Alcohol (> 40 times).....16.......24

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/thenethe.htm
gives similar numbers for the Netherlands

[size=-1]www.aihw.gov.au/publications/phe/sdua00/sdua00.pdf
has similar data for a number of countries.

Looks like much of your information is faulty.
[/size]

 

[Buzz Dixon]

mpshiel --

We aren't proceeding out of fear. We are proceeding out of a sense of history, from seeing how previous cultures and civilizations and communities handled these issues, and which ones survived and which ones did not.

We have evaluated the pros and cons, and we are not unwilling or unable to compromise in many areas.

But there are lines that should not be crossed, and for this culture that line is how marriage is defined.

You (rhetorical) are not entitled to something just because you want it. Those who celebrate and worship the gratification of the Self are not necessarily doing the ethical thing.

Elsewhere on this thread the subject of video games like GTA was brought up. The problem with citing any single specific example of something is best summed up in the proverb "No snowflake considers itself responsible for the avalanche."

Any one example, isolated and held discrete from the rest of the culture surrounding it, can be easily dismissed as harmless. PLAYBOY and Hugh Hefner, for example, in and of themselves are no great threat.

But Hefner and PLAYBOY made it possible for others, more extreme, more raunchy, to follow in their footsteps. Now we've reached a point where pornography is being mainstreamed into our popular culture. It becomes diffult to educate younger generations about the dangers of promiscuity -- just the emotional harm, not even the medical or potential for violence harm -- when porn stars are being used to sell apparel, when supposedly family friendly sit-coms make jokes abot characters viewing porn and consider it no big deal, when high ticket advertising used porn-like images to sell their product.

I'm a pop culture historian. I know what advertising looked like 100 years ago. Most people would be astonished at the amount of nudity that appeared in mainstream ads back then, but one can also clearly see the nudity was presented in a wholesome, aesthetic quality, not as the raunch fest we're wading through now.

And it's not just porn. There's the celebration of death and violence in films and TV and video games, the urge to pointless rebellion just for the sake of rebellion, and above all else the same repetitive drone of the worship of the Self and the pleasures of the Self as the highest good and highest goal anyone could possibly hope to obtain, coupled with an equally rlentless drumbeat determined to belittle and mock anyone who says, "Hold! Enough!"

Yeah, GTA in and of itself will not bright about the downfall of our culture...

...but it's a snowflake.

Using porn stars to sell clothes and shoes will not bring about the downfall of our culture...

...but it's a snowflake.

Gay marriage will not bring about the downfall of our culture...

...but it's a snowflake.

The world is separated into two groups: Those who are trying to make things better, and those who are making things worse.

I know where I stand.

 

[robot23]

You (rhetorical) are not entitled to something just because you want it.

don't make me bring up slavery again because this is just a ridiculous statement

Gay marriage will not bring about the downfall of our culture...

...but it's a snowflake.

bigotry and ignorance will bring the downfall of our culture
honestly, if you think that 2 gay people getting married somehow harms culture, well that is your opinion,
its not true
but it's your opinion

We are proceeding out of a sense of history, from seeing how previous cultures and civilizations and communities handled these issues, and which ones survived and which ones did not.

so because other people didn't allow something in the past we shouldn't allow it still?
that doesn't make any sense

The world is separated into two groups: Those who are trying to make things better, and those who are making things worse.

I know where I stand.

who are you making it better for?
by spreading bigotry i know exactly where you stand
not with me

 

[Clarity]

Genesis 2
But for Adam [8] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs [9] and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [10] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,

"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, [11] '
for she was taken out of man."

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.


Marriage was first instituted in the garden of eden between one MAN and one WOMAN and this is what God instituted. Now if we ignore gods plan what will happen. If gay marriages are legalised it effectively says that homomsexuality is socially right and it will encourage more homosexuality.

2) The bible does not specifically deal with what name and exactly what rights may or may not be given to a same sex committed couple.

Obviously because homosexual unions are sinful and so there is no need to define limits as this should not be practised by christians. The bible gives no guidlines on this but it does give clear guidelines on heterosexual marriage because God has instituted heterosexual marriage but there is no similar endoresement of homosexual unions.

By being so tolerant of homosexuality are Chrsitians not encouraging it?

The reason christians appear so intolerant is because they are intolerant relative to non christians who in general approve of homosexuality ie if non christians didn't in general believe that homosexuality was right but wrong then christians would not appear so intolerant. The reason christians appear so intolerant is that they disagree with general social consensus but should christians tone down their stance to homosexuality and conform to social consensus? No just because it differs from christian morals does not mean that we are to start playing it down to try and fit in with the crowd.

2 Timothy 4

1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

What i would call this forum is
How quick we are to change our beliefs so as we don't stand out and fit in with Society!!!

 

[robot23]

If gay marriages are legalised it effectively says that homomsexuality is socially right and it will encourage more homosexuality.

this pretty much sums up the ignorance of what homosexuality actually is

 

[HisEagle]

The end is that I believe there is substantial reason to believe that Lev 18/20 and somewhat more abstractly 1 Tim 1 and 1 Cor 6 refer to temple prostitution, just as Deut 23 (and 1 Kings 14 and 15 and 2 Kings 23) most certainly does.

And you believe that why....?

 

[Clarity]

this pretty much sums up the ignorance of what homosexuality actually is

Your view is summed up by the verse.
1 Corinthians 2
14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
AND by your earlier comment
its bigotry and ignorance
plain and simple

 

[robot23]

1 Corinthians 2
14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

i think it also proves my point
to think that if gay marriages are legalised it effectively says that homomsexuality is socially right and it will encourage more homosexuality is showing that you don't understand homosexuality

quote whatever you like

 

[Clarity]

to think that if gay marriages are legalised it effectively says that homomsexuality is socially right and it will encourage more homosexuality is showing that you don't understand homosexuality

I understand homosexuality clearly its people going against Gods teaching and it involves men having sexual realtions with other men as far as i am aware.

Your earlier comment sums your views up nicely
its bigotry and ignorance
plain and simple

 

[robot23]

I understand homosexuality clearly its people going against Gods teaching and it involves men having sexual realtions with other men as far as i am aware.

i think you have an opinion about homosexuality,
but i don't think you understand what it really is other than just whatever the bible tells you
the same bible tells you to do all kinds of things that you don't follow, like the rest of leviticus
so if you don't do any of that aren't you going agaisnt god's teaching?

but then again that is my opinion
how am i bigoted ?

 

[Clarity]

the same bible tells you to do all kinds of things that you don't follow, like the rest of leviticus

What like you have not quoted a single example.

 

[robot23]

5: And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
6: And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
7: And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
8: Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.


most christians eat pig, some eat rabbit
this is one example
the numerous burnt offering references are too many to post

oh and
how am i bigoted ?

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

And you believe that why....?

I've expanded elsewhere.

 

[robot23]

13: And he shall take a wife in her virginity.
14: A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

mpshiel --
We aren't proceeding out of fear. We are proceeding out of a sense of history, from seeing how previous cultures and civilizations and communities handled these issues, and which ones survived and which ones did not.

Excuse me if I am skeptical. Rome fell after it became Christian, far more because it was overextended and had a culture based on everexpanding conquest than because some of the upper classes engaged in unbridled hedonism, which is, after all, not what we're talking about.
There have been a large number of societies that have accepted homosexuality in one form or the other. In those cases where it was wide spread there was frequently an institutionalization of it, Greek youths at the gymnasium were expected to have a mentor and to let him engage in froutage, having nothing to do with love.
In other cases where it wasn't that widespread it was in large part simply a different way. And there is no indication that it led to any problems.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Men like to see two (or more) women together for the same principles slave owners liked to look in the fields and see all their slaves working together.

And how long have you been psychoanalyzing men? My own amateur psychoanalysis suggests it is enjoyment of seeing sex without the threat or distraction of another male in the picture. But then my degree isn't inpsych.

That is absolutely correct about Mt. 8:5-13. Without even verifying the original greek we can see its true. First, we must think about how much a Roman Centurion would care about a "servant." They could get platonic servants easier than we can watch a "new" reality show on tv. So, why would the Centurion care so much about this particular servant? Emotional ties are always connected to the strings of truth.

Because he had been with him for a while, because the servant and/or the servant's father/mother had served him faithfully for a long period of time. Who else could the Centurion truely trust? Deep bonding can happen for many reasons.
Yes, the Greek is suggestive, but no more than that.

 

[k]

And how long have you been psychoanalyzing men? My own amateur psychoanalysis suggests it is enjoyment of seeing sex without the threat or distraction of another male in the picture. But then my degree isn't inpsych.
Because he had been with him for a while, because the servant and/or the servant's father/mother had served him faithfully for a long period of time. Who else could the Centurion truely trust? Deep bonding can happen for many reasons.
Yes, the Greek is suggestive, but no more than that.

Yes, just like the slaveowners liked to see their slaves in the field without the threat of another slaveowner around. With another male being out of the picture, that removes competition. Notice there is a different competition between hetero women. They dress up for each other, but it's only secondary. It's not pschoanalyzing, 'cause it appears pretty basic since we are talking about power structures. A second analogy is how white racists can't stand caucasian people who are not racist. In the racist's eyes the one who is not racist is betraying the power structure.

The Greek is not merely suggestive, but it may appear that way through our eyes. There are two distinct words, and they are different for a reason. Just like contemporary communications. There is as much between the lines as there is in the lines themselves.