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How Old is the Earth?

Warden_of_the_Storm

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No, it isn't the same as BAKING raisin bread.

I always stipulate God creating warm raisin bread -- in the blink of an eye.

Baking it takes time.

Speaking it into existence doesn't.

It's still a crock.

Show me.

Show me ONE POST where I ever said that.

Okay so I did do a search and I have gotten your terminology wrong. Mea culpa. My fault. But your claim is still a crock, as shown here:

I believe the universe is as old as God willed it to be.

No older, no younger.

If it's 13.7 billion years old, it's 13.7 billion years old.

But, however old it is, it has only been in existence since 4004 BC.

It's still a crock. It goes against science, against the Bible and against God's own creation. You're welcome to make the claim as often as you like, but I'm still going to call it a crock because it makes God out to be a liar. And that's not God to me.
 
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AV1611VET

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It's still a crock. It goes against science, against the Bible and against God's own creation. You're welcome to make the claim as often as you like, but I'm still going to call it a crock because it makes God out to be a liar. And that's not God to me.

You're entitled to your opinion.
 
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AV1611VET

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And the same to you.

Just out of curiosity ... speaking of crocs ...

If God fed the starving in India with manna tomorrow, like He did with the Israelites in the wilderness, would you consider that a "croc"?

Or if He instantly created a loaf of warm raisin bread for every starving family, would that be a "croc"?

If not, how about if He instantly created oil in the bowels of the earth in 4004 BC?
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Just out of curiosity ... speaking of crocs ...

If God fed the starving in India with manna tomorrow, like He did with the Israelites in the wilderness, would you consider that a "croc"?

Or if He instantly created a loaf of warm raisin bread for every starving family, would that be a "croc"?

If not, how about if He instantly created oil in the bowels of the earth in 4004 BC?

Crock, not croc. A crock is another name for a pot or jar.

And it's also another way to say full of excrement.

And I only consider your extra- and non-Biblical claims a crock.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Science can take a hike.

If you can't address science in the science section, then perhaps, you should. Off to some other forum at CF that doesn't discuss the topic you express your repeated loathing for.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Lots of truth here. Same can be said for Adam and Eve. Though they were only minutes old when God created them, He would have made them to be at very least young adults. Created with an appearance of age
The appearance of age argument fails because we don't observe the appearance of age, but of history. A history that supposedly didn't happen if the earth/universe was young.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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The appearance of age argument fails because we don't observe the appearance of age, but of history. A history that supposedly didn't happen if the earth/universe was young.
Perhaps, but you're assuming God wouldn't have made it like that. Science is really just man's attempt to explain how God works in and among His creation.
 
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partinobodycular

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I always stipulate God creating warm raisin bread -- in the blink of an eye.

Baking it takes time.

Speaking it into existence doesn't.

This is where I have a problem. To me this is the point at which your argument becomes irrational. I can accept the premise that the universe is actually 13.7 billion years old, while at he same time having been created 6k years ago. Conceptually it seems odd, but in physics time can be a malleable concept so I can't rule your premise out.

However, universes function via a process of cause and effect, and the evidence of that process should be discernible to us. We should see remnants of that 13.7 billion year process in things such as radioactive decay. And indeed we do. So everything seems consistent with the fact that the universe is 13.7 billion years old. So far no problem, I agree with you... it's old.

But now we have to consider the second part of your argument... that the universe was created 6k years ago via a process that wasn't governed by cause and effect, but rather by God's free will. Things such as the following:

If not, how about if He instantly created oil in the bowels of the earth in 4004 BC?

This seems unnecessarily inefficient to me... that God created a universe that through the process of cause and effect could manage to exist... at least in some form for billions of years, until 6k years ago when God stepped in and miraculously created what... stars, and planets, and plants, and animals, and Adam and Eve? Which begs the question, you say that the universe is 13.7 billion years old, but up until 6k years ago, what was in it?

It's quite confusing.

To deal with this confusion I've had to make an assumption, that assumption being that when God created things 6k years ago... such as the oil in the bowels of the earth, He also created the process by which that oil came to be there. He didn't just go *poof*... now there's oil in the ground. He also went *poof*... now there's a reason for the oil in the ground. Hence from our perspective it shouldn't look like anything out of the ordinary happened at all. We should look and see a perfectly reasonable explanation for how that oil came to be there.

And this should be true for everything that God created. As God created things He also created the process by which they came to be there... and this includes all of those stars, and planets, and plants, and animals, and Adam and Eve. As God created them He also created the process by which they came to be there. Which in Adam and Eve's case means that He also created the process of evolution via natural selection.

This may not jive with your vision of creation, but from a physics standpoint this is simply retroactive causation. In creating things God retroactively created the process by which those things came to be there, and in the end it all looks perfectly natural. No mysterious anomalies 6k years ago required. No tweaking of the natural laws. No mysterious changes in decay rates.

A perfectly beautiful, perfectly natural 13.7 billion year old universe... created 6k years ago. And the only assumption that you have to make is that the act of creation wasn't temporally bounded, it was a holistic creation of past, present, and future, all seamlessly woven together into one harmonious whole.

Well, if you wanted me to think about it... I did. Whether you agree or not with my conclusion is up to you... but I tried. I can harmonize a universe that's 13.7 billion years old with a universe that was created 6k years ago simply by allowing for retroactive causation.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I go even further and say that God is not even capable of that.
"Is anything too difficult for the Lord?”
Genesis 18:14 BSB

"For nothing will be impossible with God.”
Luke 1:37 ESV
 
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Tinker Grey

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"Is anything too difficult for the Lord?”
Genesis 18:14 BSB

"For nothing will be impossible with God.”
Luke 1:37 ESV
If lying is not in God's character, then planting evidence that deceives is not in God's character.

If such a god exists, then @dlamberth's assertion is correct: "I go even further and say that God is not even capable of that."
 
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ByTheSpirit

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If lying is not in God's character, then planting evidence that deceives is not in God's character.

If such a god exists, then @dlamberth's assertion is correct: "I go even further and say that God is not even capable of that."
How is it meant to be deceiving? Perhaps scientific understanding just hasn't fully come to grips with the evidence. For instance, hundreds of years ago, scientists all swore the earth was flat and the center of the universe. Well now science says just the opposite.

Just because your science says something now, doesn't make it right and absolute. What God has created He created, and His understanding and wisdom goes beyond what yours or anyone else's can comprehend.
 
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Hans Blaster

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How is it meant to be deceiving? Perhaps scientific understanding just hasn't fully come to grips with the evidence. For instance, hundreds of years ago, scientists all swore the earth was flat and the center of the universe. Well now science says just the opposite.
No they didn't. There weren't even people called "scientists" until about 200 years ago and it has been well established in educated Western circles (the unwashed masses may not have known) that the Earth was spherical for over 2000 years.

Just because your science says something now, doesn't make it right and absolute. What God has created He created, and His understanding and wisdom goes beyond what yours or anyone else's can comprehend.
When your religious text or dogma presents something as true that is contrary to the clear evidence then it is wrong. It doesn't matter what that things is or what doctrine or religion it is. Wrong is wrong.
 
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dlamberth

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"Is anything too difficult for the Lord?”
Genesis 18:14 BSB

"For nothing will be impossible with God.”
Luke 1:37 ESV
Even dishonesty?
The nature of God is that He is straight up and honest in all that He does. He can not be otherwise?
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Even dishonesty?
The nature of God is that He is straight up and honest in all that He does. He can not be otherwise.
How is God being dishonest by creating things with the appearance of age?
 
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dlamberth

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How is it meant to be deceiving?
Isn't it deceiving when God creates a false age of the Universe with in the Universe?
Just because your science says something now, doesn't make it right and absolute. What God has created He created, and His understanding and wisdom goes beyond what yours or anyone else's can comprehend.
Just for clarity, I'm very much a Lover of God. With that hat on, science opens a window into how God creates. And in my way of knowing God, wisdom and creating are two different things.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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No they didn't. There weren't even people called "scientists" until about 200 years ago and it has been well established in educated Western circles (the unwashed masses may not have known) that the Earth was spherical for over 2000 years.


When your religious text or dogma presents something as true that is contrary to the clear evidence then it is wrong. It doesn't matter what that things is or what doctrine or religion it is. Wrong is wrong.
So science doesn't evolve then is what you are saying. That scientific thought now has been the same since the dawn of humanity. That's a pretty bold statement to make and is obviously false. The point is that you claiming the clear evidence now is proof that your understanding is right, doesn't make your understanding absolute.

If a person born color blind only ever sees in black, white, and shades of gray, they could never possibly understand the spectrum of color that most people get to enjoy. But that doesn't mean that color doesn't exist, they just can't see it. When you give them aids to see color, then they can see more fully the beauty of the world around them.

The point is that understanding is limited and evolves and changes depending on evidence and circumstances. You can't possibly make a statement that your view or even the commonly held view on science is ironclad because the evidence will change and then the thought will change with it. Sure you can make the counter argument to me, but the difference between us is I trust my God to be honest in what He has said and believe that even though evidence might say something contrary, there's a deeper explanation to it that my finite mind may not understand. And I don't need to understand it, I take that in faith.
 
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dlamberth

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How is God being dishonest by creating things with the appearance of age?
It's dishonest because God would be creating an illusion of age and history over time that did not actually happen.
 
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