How old is the earth?

[Diamond72]

that was in reference to the source you were quoting.

The problem I have with OEC is that the length of the days are not the same. Schroeder PhD using astrophysics and Kabbalah has resolved that issue. Hassidic makes the Kabbalah teaching a LOT more accessible than it used to be. Even teaching it to 13-year-old girls. I have a niece who went through the training. There is a movie called: "A Stranger Among Us" that characterizes the NYC Hassidic. They are a unique group of people and their teaching is interesting. Some of the words they use are allegory, metaphor, archetype, homiletics, symbolism, paradigm, parables, allusions, and so on.

1. Allegory: Analogy, fable, parable, metaphorical narrative.
2. Metaphor: Analogy, symbol, comparison, figure of speech.
3. Archetype: Prototype, model, exemplar, quintessence.
4. Homiletics: Preaching, sermonizing, exhortation, religious instruction.
5. Symbolic: Representational, emblematic, figurative, metaphorical.
6. Paradigm: Example, pattern, model, exemplar.
7. Parables: Allegories, stories, teachings, anecdotes.
8. Allusions: References, citations, mentions, echoes.

These synonyms can provide you with a variety of words that convey similar meanings or concepts. I told my son to take a literature class so he could learn how fiction & fables can still have their effect on us and our lives. I was amazed that his book had 22 revisions. Even though the stories themselves do not change.

 

[Diamond72]

Can you please demonstrate some of the symbolic messages in the scriptures that pertain to creation?

1. Genesis 1:1-2 (Creation of the World): "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."
   Symbolic Message: The imagery of God creating the world out of formlessness and darkness can be seen as a symbolic representation of bringing order, purpose, and light into the chaos of existence. It emphasizes God's power to transform and give life.
2. Genesis 2:7 (Creation of Man): "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."
   Symbolic Message: The act of forming humanity from the dust of the earth and breathing life into them symbolizes the intimate connection between humans and the divine. It highlights the spiritual aspect of human existence and the unique relationship between God and humans.
3. Psalm 19:1-2 (General Revelation): "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge."
   Symbolic Message: The natural world, including the heavens and the skies, is depicted as a symbolic language that communicates the greatness and wisdom of God. Creation serves as a continuous testament to the divine presence and creativity.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Kaballah has been around for a long time to be considered nothing. Perhaps my explanation is mumbo jumbo. The Hasidic Rabbi explains this a lot better than I do. But if you want to think that a best-selling book is mumbo jumbo, that is fine with me. Even walt disney was a master in the use of archetypes and Carl Jung did a lot to explain what archtypes are. Jesus used parable, was that mumbo jumbo also?

The Bible contains numerous archetypes, recurring symbols, themes, or character types that hold deep and universal meanings. Archetypes are often found in literature, mythology, and religious texts, including the Bible. These archetypes can provide insight into human nature, spirituality, and the human experience.

Disney has built theme parks in USA, Japan & Hong Kong. I think this is a testimony as to how universal symbols can be and how all people can relate to them.

Parables and analogies are given in reference to a statement or a position that has been revealed in a conversation or dialog and their purpose is to give an example or illustration that the reader or listener can relate to. Nobody anywhere in the Bible just walked up and gave a parable or an analogy that had nothing to do with what was previously said or discussed or without following up afterwards to reveal what the analogy was about. The creation account in Genesis starts with no previous conversation or dialog to relate to. It gives no example or illustration to any preexisting conversation or dialogue nor does it relate to any following discussion or dialogue. It’s simply a record of the events that took place when God created the universe. There’s no indication that it is metaphorical for anything other than a historical record of creation. At least none that I can see, if you have some you’d like to share I’m very willing to see them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

1. Genesis 1:1-2 (Creation of the World): "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."
   Symbolic Message: The imagery of God creating the world out of formlessness and darkness can be seen as a symbolic representation of bringing order, purpose, and light into the chaos of existence. It emphasizes God's power to transform and give life.
2. Genesis 2:7 (Creation of Man): "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."
   Symbolic Message: The act of forming humanity from the dust of the earth and breathing life into them symbolizes the intimate connection between humans and the divine. It highlights the spiritual aspect of human existence and the unique relationship between God and humans.
3. Psalm 19:1-2 (General Revelation): "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge."
   Symbolic Message: The natural world, including the heavens and the skies, is depicted as a symbolic language that communicates the greatness and wisdom of God. Creation serves as a continuous testament to the divine presence and creativity.

Ok but these are just people’s interpretations of what was written. I was referring to scriptural references.

 

[Halbhh]

Adam was created 300,000 years ago, there should be some, even slight evidence of evolution, if it actually occurred.

Adam was the first of us (more detail -- see below the ====) -- the first modern human with a God breathed spirit (Genesis chapter 2) (and this special extra thing given to us makes us radically different from other creatures) -- and from this special God-breathed spirit, Adam thus was given the first human soul, accountable on the Day of Judgement. That's not the same as the first human type of course, nor even the first homo sapien (which are 250,000 years or more old).

But how have humans evolved over the last 100,000 years? Here is a summary:

How have we changed since our species first appeared?

Physical and genetic changes have occurred within our species and will continue to occur at a basic level as new genes evolve. However, these changes may not be as dramatic as they were in the past as the situation today does not favour the evolution of a new human species.

australian.museum

=========
... Adam (we read) was the first human being to be given a specifically God-breathed spirit.

(and not like Neanderthals and other types, but the first of us)

Spirit is associated to wind and air and the Breath of God, and you'll recognize this in a very very famous verse you may know by heart.

And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit." -- John 20:22

God breathed Life (as in with a capital "L") into Adam -- so Adam was not yet subject to death at that time.

This gift of spirit created in Adam the first-ever human soul that would then be accountable to God on the Day of Judgement to come.

Making Adam the first of us.

All other hominids (Neanderthals, etc.) and even modern humans that were already created in day 6 of creation did not have God-breathed spirit/souls that will be accountable on the Day of Judgement.

So, Adam was the first of us humans that will be Judged on the Day of Judgment.

There is more we can notice once we see this...

For example, also when Cain murdered his brother Abel and then was exiled to travel off to the land of Nod, and had a wife there, it seems likely that instead of marrying a sister, Cain found a wife there, from peoples that already lived there, humans from Day 6....

This does raise one really interesting question though. Did those other humans in the land of Nod already living there....did they have souls accountable to God on the Day of Judgement?

We are not told if after God gave Adam the first-ever soul accountable to God on the Day of Judgement whether God might also have then given all other already living humans outside the Garden souls also.

Maybe. Maybe He then gave accountable souls to all living humans outside (after the fall in the Garden, as Adam and Eve were ejected) -- all that are our type, not Neanderthals but all the modern humans, who look just like us.

This and many small details about very many things are not told to us. God is instead in the scripture teaching us lessons about life for us today -- for me and you for our lives today!

About how we should live.

I try to always carefully remember what is told to us, and what is left for us to try to guess at, and not confuse the 2.

 

[BNR32FAN]

1. Genesis 1:1-2 (Creation of the World): "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."
   Symbolic Message: The imagery of God creating the world out of formlessness and darkness can be seen as a symbolic representation of bringing order, purpose, and light into the chaos of existence. It emphasizes God's power to transform and give life.
2. Genesis 2:7 (Creation of Man): "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."
   Symbolic Message: The act of forming humanity from the dust of the earth and breathing life into them symbolizes the intimate connection between humans and the divine. It highlights the spiritual aspect of human existence and the unique relationship between God and humans.
3. Psalm 19:1-2 (General Revelation): "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge."
   Symbolic Message: The natural world, including the heavens and the skies, is depicted as a symbolic language that communicates the greatness and wisdom of God. Creation serves as a continuous testament to the divine presence and creativity.

When we formulate an interpretation it’s should encompass all the information that is given in the scriptures for it to even be plausible. It’s like putting together a jigsaw puzzle, there shouldn’t be any pieces left over that don’t fit. So far I haven’t seen any OEC interpretations that encompass all the pieces of information contained in the creation account.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Adam was the first of us (more detail -- see below the ====) -- the first modern human with a God breathed spirit (Genesis chapter 2) (and this special extra thing given to us makes us radically different from other creatures) -- and from this special God-breathed spirit, Adam thus was given the first human soul, accountable on the Day of Judgement. That's not the same as the first human type of course, nor even the first homo sapien (which are 250,000 years or more old).

But how have humans evolved over the last 100,000 years? Here is a summary:

How have we changed since our species first appeared?

Physical and genetic changes have occurred within our species and will continue to occur at a basic level as new genes evolve. However, these changes may not be as dramatic as they were in the past as the situation today does not favour the evolution of a new human species.

australian.museum

=========
... Adam (we read) was the first human being to be given a specifically God-breathed spirit.

(and not like Neanderthals and other types, but the first of us)

Spirit is associated to wind and air and the Breath of God, and you'll recognize this in a very very famous verse you may know by heart.

And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit." -- John 20:22

God breathed Life (as in with a capital "L") into Adam -- so Adam was not yet subject to death at that time.

This gift of spirit created in Adam the first-ever human soul that would then be accountable to God on the Day of Judgement to come.

Making Adam the first of us.

All other hominids (Neanderthals, etc.) and even modern humans that were already created in day 6 of creation did not have God-breathed spirit/souls that will be accountable on the Day of Judgement.

So, Adam was the first of us humans that will be Judged on the Day of Judgment.

There is more we can notice once we see this...

For example, also when Cain murdered his brother Abel and then was exiled to travel off to the land of Nod, and had a wife there, it seems likely that instead of marrying a sister, Cain found a wife there, from peoples that already lived there, humans from Day 6....

This does raise one really interesting question though. Did those other humans in the land of Nod already living there....did they have souls accountable to God on the Day of Judgement?

We are not told if after God gave Adam the first-ever soul accountable to God on the Day of Judgement whether God might also have then given all other already living humans outside the Garden souls also.

Maybe. Maybe He then gave accountable souls to all living humans outside (after the fall in the Garden, as Adam and Eve were ejected) -- all that are our type, not Neanderthals but all the modern humans, who look just like us.

This and many small details about very many things are not told to us. God is instead in the scripture teaching us lessons about life for us today -- for me and you for our lives today!

About how we should live.

I try to always carefully remember what is told to us, and what is left for us to try to guess at, and not confuse the 2.

I wonder, do you think Cain married his wife the same way he killed Able? Whacked her on the head with a rock?

 

[Halbhh]

I wonder, do you think Cain married his wife the same way he killed Able? Whacked her on the head with a rock?

I hope not, for his sake.

 

[Diamond72]

So far I haven’t seen any OEC interpretations that encompass all the pieces of information contained in the creation account.

No one can encompass all the information contained in the word of God. IF for no other reason than that God is infinite. We are finite, we have limits, God does not have limits from our perspective.

 

[Diamond72]

I hope not, for his sake.

She may have whacked him. Women are a lot more capable than men want to give them credit for.

 

[Diamond72]

Ok but these are just people’s interpretations of what was written. I was referring to scriptural references.

In Bible College they teach the rules of Bible interpretation. Is that what you are talking about?

Hermeneutics: the Eight Rules of Biblical Interpretation​

 

[Diamond72]

The creation account in Genesis starts with no previous conversation or dialog to relate to.

Genesis starts with "Beginning". If we could figure out the Beginning then we would understand all the rest of the Bible because God declares the end from the beginning.

Job 38:6 On what were its foundations set, or who laid its cornerstone, 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?…

 

[BNR32FAN]

In Bible College they teach the rules of Bible interpretation. Is that what you are talking about?

Hermeneutics: the Eight Rules of Biblical Interpretation​

Basically I was talking about the term “there was evening and there was morning”. So far I haven’t seen a single OEC interpretation that incorporates this term. It’s always like a left over piece of the puzzle that never gets inserted into the interpretation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Adam was the first of us (more detail -- see below the ====) -- the first modern human with a God breathed spirit (Genesis chapter 2) (and this special extra thing given to us makes us radically different from other creatures) -- and from this special God-breathed spirit, Adam thus was given the first human soul, accountable on the Day of Judgement. That's not the same as the first human type of course, nor even the first homo sapien (which are 250,000 years or more old).

But how have humans evolved over the last 100,000 years? Here is a summary:

How have we changed since our species first appeared?

Physical and genetic changes have occurred within our species and will continue to occur at a basic level as new genes evolve. However, these changes may not be as dramatic as they were in the past as the situation today does not favour the evolution of a new human species.

australian.museum

=========
... Adam (we read) was the first human being to be given a specifically God-breathed spirit.

(and not like Neanderthals and other types, but the first of us)

Spirit is associated to wind and air and the Breath of God, and you'll recognize this in a very very famous verse you may know by heart.

And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit." -- John 20:22

God breathed Life (as in with a capital "L") into Adam -- so Adam was not yet subject to death at that time.

This gift of spirit created in Adam the first-ever human soul that would then be accountable to God on the Day of Judgement to come.

Making Adam the first of us.

All other hominids (Neanderthals, etc.) and even modern humans that were already created in day 6 of creation did not have God-breathed spirit/souls that will be accountable on the Day of Judgement.

So, Adam was the first of us humans that will be Judged on the Day of Judgment.

There is more we can notice once we see this...

For example, also when Cain murdered his brother Abel and then was exiled to travel off to the land of Nod, and had a wife there, it seems likely that instead of marrying a sister, Cain found a wife there, from peoples that already lived there, humans from Day 6....

This does raise one really interesting question though. Did those other humans in the land of Nod already living there....did they have souls accountable to God on the Day of Judgement?

We are not told if after God gave Adam the first-ever soul accountable to God on the Day of Judgement whether God might also have then given all other already living humans outside the Garden souls also.

Maybe. Maybe He then gave accountable souls to all living humans outside (after the fall in the Garden, as Adam and Eve were ejected) -- all that are our type, not Neanderthals but all the modern humans, who look just like us.

This and many small details about very many things are not told to us. God is instead in the scripture teaching us lessons about life for us today -- for me and you for our lives today!

About how we should live.

I try to always carefully remember what is told to us, and what is left for us to try to guess at, and not confuse the 2.

That sounds somewhat speculative to me. Anyway, I have seen pictures of modern humans identical to the images of Neanderthals. It is always best to stick to the literal text of the Bible and not try to add stuff to it.

 

[Platte]

I believe in a literal seven day creation. But I don't debate on this anymore. I'm happy for God to put theistic evolutionists correct on judgment day.
(that was a joke)

On a serious note, I don't debate anymore. I used to debate years ago, and no one ever got anywhere other than winding people up. Seven days makes sense to me, but it's not a salvation issue, so I just share my views if someone asks but never get hot under the collar over it.

And everyone shouts "What a wimp!"

No need to debate. The Bible says the earth was created in 7 days (6 plus rest day). I wish God would have explained what he meant by a day when He gave us the Genesis account of creation. He had to know there would be discussions in what a day meant. Oh wait, God said the evening and the morning is a day. Thank you God.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No need to debate. The Bible says the earth was created in 7 days (6 plus rest day). I wish God would have explained what he meant by a day when He gave us the Genesis account of creation. He had to know there would be discussions in what a day meant. Oh wait, God said the evening and the morning is a day. Thank you God.

In a way He did, by giving the Hebrew word "yom" which has around four different meanings depending on the context. Being able to use the meaning "epoch" for "yom" successfully marries the Scripture record with scientific evidence. It enables us to see the Book of the Bible, along with the Book of Nature and see that they are compatible with each other. What it does is to enable atheists to be won to Christ in spite of them not believing the Biblical record, convincing them of the absolute design of the cosmos to show that it was designed and constructed by a Creator who is 10 to the power 30 guadrillion more intelligent and powerful than what we can imagine. Being unbending that the cosmos had to be created in 6 24 hour days will never turn any atheist to Christ just by quoting the Bible at them.

However, most Hebrew scholars agree that the context requires the meaning of "yom" to be "epoch" rather than a 24 hour day.

 

[FaithT]

Yes, the Bible says God created the earth in 6 days, rested on the 7th. The Bible suggests the earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old. BUT what does the evidence show us?

 

[NBB]

geologists have ways of studying earth like the layers of mud etc near rivers or something like that, why think God created that evidence to make it look old, when that is a natural process? i don't believe in evolution like they teach, but about earth age, i do believe that is not necessary that it appeared in 7 24 hours days, and the evidence points its old.

 

[Diamond72]

Basically I was talking about the term “there was evening and there was morning”. So far I haven’t seen a single OEC interpretation that incorporates this term. It’s always like a left over piece of the puzzle that never gets inserted into the interpretation.

In the morning we leave home so our home is behind us. In the evening we return home so our home is in front of us. On the Hebrew calendar the day begins in the evening. On the Gregorian calendar day begins in the morning.

 

[Diamond72]

When we formulate an interpretation it’s should encompass all the information that is given in the scriptures

What about all the natural evidence that God gives us to study and examine? He wants us to know what He has done and what He is doing. There is a huge amount of fossil evidence. The geology society here has a gemstore show a few times a year. The fossils they sell are abundant and plentiful. Even I went with my son one year and there was an amateur gemologist that wanted to give him fossils for free.