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Another interesting oneHere's another:
1 In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, “This is what the Lord says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover.”
2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord, 3 “Remember, Lord, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
4 Then the word of the Lord came to Isaiah: 5 “Go and tell Hezekiah, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life. 6And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city.
7“ ‘This is the Lord’s sign to you that the Lord will do what he has promised: 8 I will make the shadow cast by the sun go back the ten steps it has gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.’ ” So the sunlight went back the ten steps it had gone down.
-- Isaiah 38
Lazarus' body deteriorated naturally until Jesus reverse it instantly.(you already know more more though really....the dead don't come back to life after 4 days in the grave, like Lazarus;
If it is natural, it is not a supernatural miracle.Leprosy isn't healed in an instant in any natural recovery,
If it is not a supernatural miracle, I would not label it a miracle except as a figure of speech.and so there are very many miracles that cannot be taken to be just like really rare/unlikely natural events. In summary, while some miracles are similar to just very unlikely natural events, some others are not at all naturally even possible, but break the laws of physics)
Yet many Christians believe utterly in every word in the Bible, every word (not just some) and conclude that the Earth being old fits scripture perfectly. One way to reach the conclusion that the Earth is old is to read fully through all the bible (every chapter in every book).The universe can be created inherently deceptive without God being a liar because He specifically told us how long it took Him to create them and how long ago He created them. He is not obligated to create the universe in any particular fashion. The reason why the universe appears to be deceptive could be because of the same reason that Jesus spoke in parables.
“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; For the heart of this people has become dull, With their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes, Otherwise they would see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.’”
Matthew 13:13-15 NASB1995
Jesus didn’t try to convince people who were not interested in listening to Him, instead He spoke in parables so that they would not understand and only those who were interested in listening to Him would understand. I think the appearance of the age of the universe was purposely created in such a way that those who seek to deny Him will have evidence against Him. It’s apparent to me that God doesn’t want irrefutable proof of His existence during this age. Those who want to know Him, He will reveal Himself to them and those who want to reject Him, He will not reveal Himself to them.
About some miracles appearing as if they could have been just very lucky natural events in the viewpoint of a skeptic, that's just a wording I wrote trying to point out how sometimes some miraculous things can be attributed to just luck by an atheist. One fun example is when Jesus raised the dead daughter of the synagogue leader, He said she was "asleep" and I've even seen one atheist claim to me that literally the girl was only sleeping... (so...perhaps for the feeding of the 5,000 that same atheist might come up with something like people had food in their robe pockets and such they decided to bring out, etc.)Another interesting one
Lazarus' body deteriorated naturally until Jesus reverse it instantly.
If it is natural, it is not a supernatural miracle.
If it is not a supernatural miracle, I would not label it a miracle except as a figure of speech.
Any more examples of sustained supernatural miracles over a continuous interval of time?
Yet many Christians believe utterly in every word in the Bible, every word (not just some) and conclude that the Earth being old fits scripture perfectly. One way to reach the conclusion that the Earth is old is to read fully through all the bible (every chapter in every book).
No. Time is just the natural flow of time. With 2 possible cases of exception as you have mentioned, a supernatural miracle is instantaneous.About " sustained supernatural miracles over a continuous interval of time?" do you mean alteration of time itself (or some such)
This is another interesting caseconsider how as long as Moses held up his staff, Israel was winning the battle, but when his arm grew tired and came down, they were losing, until he lifted it again. (Exodus 17)
Of course Genesis chapter 1 isn't about the trivial, and so it's not about how wide the Earth is, or how long a day is, nor about whether God could create in X amount of time....the Bible says that the earth is just over 6000 years old according to the genealogy records.
Hezekiah asks for the sun to go backwards on the sundial in 2 Kings 20:8-11.That's an interesting possible exception. Do you have another one?
Yes, I have heard this before.The universe can be created inherently deceptive without God being a liar because He specifically told us how long it took Him to create them and how long ago He created them. He is not obligated to create the universe in any particular fashion. The reason why the universe appears to be deceptive could be because of the same reason that Jesus spoke in parables....
Of course Genesis chapter 1 isn't about the trivial, and so it's not about how wide the Earth is, or how long a day is, nor about whether God could create in X amount of time....
Instead, as I think you already agree, Genesis chapter 1 is about something far more important and profound than time duration (x amount of time vs y amount of time).
I happen to believe in the text of Genesis 1 literally, in case you think that's important.
So, perhaps you'd then agree it's only a mere discussion of mere theory among believers if we discuss the relatively trivial question of precisely how old the Earth might be, yes?
Here's why I think so:
If another person (not me or you) reads Genesis 1 without being preoccupied with how much time or other debates, that's very good, because they will better pay attention and hear the text, and that can be very important.
Because the scripture can lift their mind from base things to profound things, the things of God.
So, it's probably only good to discuss our mere theories of how old the Earth is if we both agree that it's not very important the precise age, among believers. (because of Romans 14:1) We could discuss it as a mere curiosity. What do you think?
Yes, I have heard this before.
What else has He done before our eyes that is not true? Are the works of Jesus true? Is the passion of Christ true? Did it really happen or was it just a narrative? What about the miracles and healings the Jesus performed? They were intended to convince us or who He is. Are they an illusion also? Is ALL of this merely a parable? Even a parable has to be true. If the works of God and the Words of God are contradictory, what are we to believe? Jesus said something interesting that seems to line the things God does to the things He says:
Yes, I have heard this before.
What else has He done before our eyes that is not true? Are the works of Jesus true? Is the passion of Christ true? Did it really happen or was it just a narrative? What about the miracles and healings the Jesus performed? They were intended to convince us or who He is. Are they an illusion also? Is ALL of this merely a parable? Even a parable has to be true. If the works of God and the Words of God are contradictory, what are we to believe? Jesus said something interesting that seems to line the things God does to the things He says:
John 14: KJV
10. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father
that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else
believe me for the very works' sake.
We cannot separate the works of God from the Words of God. We are to believe according to the works as if they were words.
Do the works of God reveal truth?
Psalms 33:4 KJV
4. For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
When we see the works of God we can believe what we are seeing is truth.
Psalms 85:11 KJV
11. Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven.
So when we look at the earth, the layers, the obvious age: what truth are we seeing? Is it a declaration that the earth is 6000 years old?
Deuteronomy 32:4 ABP
4. God, his works are true and all his ways are equity. God is trustworthy,
and there is no injustice in him; just and sacred is the LORD.
We could go on and on from cover to cover. God's works are true, and the reveal who He is. His works, including creation, are a perfect and accurate depiction of Him, His actions, and reality as we see it with our own eyes.
To close this section; the capper:
Romans 1:20 KJV
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead;
so that they are without excuse:
If creation is in fact a ruse to make us believe an untruth... then what are we to think? Would the deceived in fact have an excuse?
"But if the creation is really only 6000 years old, then why were we deceived into thinking, by the things that are clearly seen, with an understanding dictated by the things that are made, that the earth is really 14 billion years old? We have been tricked!"
God told us to not bear false witness. And He does not do that either. God cannot lie. And why would He? In the Sopranos the boss of the family Johnny Sack told Tony something thought provoking. He said “I'm not going to lie to you, Tony, I don't have to." He was the boss... he did not have to lie. Doe He does not have to lie because He is not afraid of anyone and does not have to answer to anyone. Just tell it like it is and everyone has to get in line. He is God and does what he wants. If He wants a world that is 6000 years old then do it and move on. What is the point of dressing up His 6000 year old creation to merely look like it is 14 billion years old? Just create a universe that is 14 billion years old and roll with it. Too many questions here. Too many incongruities. Lies, dissembling, misinformation.
One of the most interesting passages about God as declared by His creation, and How he is related to His creation:
Psalms 19:1-6 KJV
1. To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God;
and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
These simple verses state that God's creation is speaking to us. The days of the earth are uttering speech. The night (sky) is showing us knowledge. What we are seeing in the night sky is information about God and His creation. Can we trust what we are seeing and the information it is declaring? I think we can!
So the creation is declaring, showing forth, uttering speech, showing knowledge and speaking plainly to all.
4. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end
of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5. Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a
strong man to run a race.
6. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it:
and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
Is the declaration we are seeing in creation and night sky a fabrication? If it is, then logic would say the glory of God also a fabrication. It would almost be like he is padding His glory resume.
Of course I am not suggesting it is . But the point is; we can trust the declaration and speech of the creation we are seeing and hearing.
Rant?Ok this whole rant and creation of numerous strawmen was completely pointless because it’s all based on the assumption that scientists are right about their predictions. Furthermore you think what we observe in the world coincides with what we read in the scriptures? Is that your argument? I’ll wait until you answer that question before I proceed to destroy that notion, I just want to make sure that’s your official position.
Magic is an alternate word for deception or illusion, miracle is a great effect where the cause is unknown or the cause is beyond human comprehension, yet still according to law.Did you read the definition of the word “miracle” I provided in the post you’re replying to? The very definition of the word clearly indicates that it is not explicable by science. The reason we use the word miracle instead of magic is because magic is not exclusively performed by a deity. That’s what separates the usage of those two words.
The laws of physics can be seen in two ways, the narrow spectrum that men have discovered, and the infinite set of laws that men are barely aware of.Not necessarily (and by the scripture we see some clear exceptions). Our own Universe operates naturally by the design of nature that God created, physics. Physics is His creation, as God created everything.
But, we have no reason to think He is constrained or controlled by the physics He created any more than you'd be controlled by a 2x4 piece of lumber you have used, as a carpenter.
As a carpenter you can use lumber, build a house, and then later you could on another day use some other new type of lumber or material unlike the first, and can build something unlike anything you had built previously, at any moment. The lumber and structures you've used and created in the past don't control you in the present. God isn't controlled by this physics He created, and He can do things that don't follow the laws of physics, see.
But, it appears God often has chosen to do miraculous things in many instances that can seem as if it was only a natural event to a skeptical observer that wishes to not believe. That He has many times done miracles that appear as if they are only very lucky natural events to a skeptic doesn't though imply He is limited to doing events that could only happen naturally.
But....on other occasions He seems to have done things that are very unnatural.
Let's look at one of that kind: an unnatural miracle.
A miracle God did that breaks the laws of physics:
12 On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:
“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on[b] its enemies,
as it is written in the Book of Jashar.
The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!
Bible Gateway passage: Joshua 10:1-15 - New International Version
The Sun Stands Still - Now Adoni-Zedek king of Jerusalem heard that Joshua had taken Ai and totally destroyed it, doing to Ai and its king as he had done to Jericho and its king, and that the people of Gibeon had made a treaty of peace with Israel and had become their allies. He and his people...www.biblegateway.com
Magic is an alternate word for deception or illusion, miracle is a great effect where the cause is unknown or the cause is beyond human comprehension, yet still according to law.
Rant?
I think I will pass.
Yes, I have heard this before.
What else has He done before our eyes that is not true? Are the works of Jesus true? Is the passion of Christ true? Did it really happen or was it just a narrative? What about the miracles and healings the Jesus performed? They were intended to convince us or who He is. Are they an illusion also? Is ALL of this merely a parable? Even a parable has to be true. If the works of God and the Words of God are contradictory, what are we to believe? Jesus said something interesting that seems to line the things God does to the things He says:
I have seen a lot of miracles and it all comes down to positive or negative energy.Any more examples of sustained supernatural miracles over a continuous interval of time?
Check this out: Dark matter, dark energy, and the spiritual realmI have seen a lot of miracles and it all comes down to positive or negative energy.
Matthew 21:22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
Both are true, depending on the perspective of timeI used to believe in an old earth but, having looked into it a lot more my view is moving towards a younger earth.
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