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How old is the earth?

SuperCow

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The problem I have with it is that is that the creation account is a miracle. By definition it’s not supposed to be explainable by science, it’s supposed to defy the laws of science otherwise it would cease to be a miracle.

Miracle-a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency:

What this comes down to is a choice between who is right and who is wrong. So a lot of people resort to a lot of scriptural acrobatics in order to coincide what is written in the scriptures with what scientists believe actually occurred. The problem is those interpretations never pan out without contracting what was actually written. It never works because scientists are just flat out wrong. I don’t see why this is so hard for people to see when the predictions scientists are giving are not based on facts they’re based on hypotheses. They’re based on what we know now not what we know about what happened 6000 years ago. Basically they have to say IF X, Y, and Z are true then the earth is X amount of years old. The problem is they don’t know that X, Y, and Z are true they just assume that they are based on the information we have now. So the age is the earth is not fact it’s a prediction based on incomplete data.

Plenty of miracles happen every day to people. The fact that they can be explained by science makes it no less a miracle. If I can totally explain the flood, it doesn't remove the miracle that God warned Noah how to survive. If I can totally explain the 10 plagues (which attempts I have seen are pretty lame), it doesn't take away the fact that God told Moses the exact day and time they would all occur.

Joseph interpreted a dream for Pharaoh. The dream and the interpretation are a miracle. The years of plenty and drought, though rare, were all potentially natural. The miracle is that Joseph was able to save thousands of lives that might have been lost to starvation.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Plenty of miracles happen every day to people. The fact that they can be explained by science makes it no less a miracle. If I can totally explain the flood, it doesn't remove the miracle that God warned Noah how to survive. If I can totally explain the 10 plagues (which attempts I have seen are pretty lame), it doesn't take away the fact that God told Moses the exact day and time they would all occur.

Joseph interpreted a dream for Pharaoh. The dream and the interpretation are a miracle. The years of plenty and drought, though rare, were all potentially natural. The miracle is that Joseph was able to save thousands of lives that might have been lost to starvation.

I disagree because any time God intervenes that in itself is contradictory to the laws of science. What you’re talking about here are miracles that only appear to be explainable by science but the actual cause, God’s intervention, is not scientific it’s supernatural.
 
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tonychanyt

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I disagree because any time God intervenes that in itself is contradictory to the laws of science. What you’re talking about here are miracles that only appear to be explainable by science but the actual cause, God’s intervention, is not scientific it’s supernatural.
You took the words right out of my mouth :)
 
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Niels

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The problem I have with it is that is that the creation account is a miracle. By definition it’s not supposed to be explainable by science, it’s supposed to defy the laws of science otherwise it would cease to be a miracle.

Miracle-a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency:

What this comes down to is a choice between who is right and who is wrong. So a lot of people resort to a lot of scriptural acrobatics in order to coincide what is written in the scriptures with what scientists believe actually occurred. The problem is those interpretations never pan out without contracting what was actually written. It never works because scientists are just flat out wrong. I don’t see why this is so hard for people to see when the predictions scientists are giving are not based on facts they’re based on hypotheses. They’re based on what we know now not what we know about what happened 6000 years ago. Basically they have to say IF X, Y, and Z are true then the earth is X amount of years old. The problem is they don’t know that X, Y, and Z are true they just assume that they are based on the information we have now. So the age is the earth is not fact it’s a prediction based on incomplete data.
A created universe is a discoverable universe. The point of a miracle isn't to defy scientific explanation. It's to show that God is the author of creation. The idea being that we should turn to him and be aligned with our creator rather than turn to false gods. Miracles aren't like witchcraft. They aren't magic. That's why we use the term "miraculous" rather than "magical" when describing acts of God.

All of nature is the work of divine agency. There isn't a corner of the universe that exists without his being.

Scientists are practitioners of the scientific method. The scientific method is a useful tool for understanding how nature works. Where some scientists get it wrong is the assumption that our current understanding is a complete understanding. It isn't. Maybe the universe is 4.5 billion years old, but that estimate may change as new evidence is encountered. It might be younger or it might be even older. Either way it still exists. That's the miracle. The fact that it exists at all doesn't change based on the specific details of its age.
 
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Niels

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Sure.

Define miracle.
A miracle is an intervention by God. Sometimes, by God through a person on his behalf.

Miracles serve a greater purpose beyond their immediate action. They point to God. Like creation itself, they bring glory to God. For some people, that is sufficiently miraculous. Others require additional miracles before they are convinced that God is who he says he is.

Like I said earlier, the idea being that we should turn to him. To be aligned with our creator rather than to false gods. I think this is more of a key differentiator between miracles and magic. Magic defies natural law whereas miracles show God's involvement as he is the creator of nature.
 
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tonychanyt

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A miracle is an intervention by God. Sometimes, by God through a person on his behalf.

Miracles serve a greater purpose beyond their immediate action. They point to God. Like creation itself, they bring glory to God. For some people, that is sufficiently miraculous. Others require additional miracles before they are convinced that God is who he says he is.

Like I said earlier, the idea being that we should turn to him. To be aligned with our creator rather than to false gods. I think this is more of a key differentiator between miracles and magic. Magic defies natural law whereas miracles show God's involvement as he is the creator of nature.
Define miracle operationally so that anyone can apply this definition.
 
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SuperCow

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I disagree because any time God intervenes that in itself is contradictory to the laws of science. What you’re talking about here are miracles that only appear to be explainable by science but the actual cause, God’s intervention, is not scientific it’s supernatural.

That is definitely not true. The laws of science for us as humans do not apply to God. That doesn't mean there are no laws in the spirit realm. All it means is that they are beyond our understanding and our grasp.

If I rescue an insect from drowning and put him back on land, that is a miracle for the bug. The bug was not capable of doing that on his own. We are the bugs. When God rescues us from the environment that we as humanity caused through our sins, it is a miracle. We cannot do some things for ourselves, but sometimes we can be helped and it doesn't always require a supernatural act. You can call it supernatural just because God did it, but it may be impossible to determine if it was divine or natural by any conventional method.

As an example, once about 30 years ago, I was divorced and broke and needed money for something that I felt was important enough to pray for help with the problem. (I won't elaborate, because it was not life-threatening or anything and I'm sure many people have had worse problems and I don't want to digress.) The next day a hailstorm came through town and hailed on my car (and a few hundred others in the parking lot) and on my house (and a few other houses in my neighborhood.) A few days later, several workmates strongly encouraged me to claim the damage on my insurance. Long story short, the problem was solved. (I was not required to repair the car or the house and sold them both a couple of years later when the depreciated value had become irrelevant to me.) Was that a miracle? It was to me. To an onlooker, it might have just been a coincidental thunderstorm. Did God cause it? Well he causes every natural thing indirectly at the very least. Did he cause it for my benefit? Maybe. Or maybe I was just in the right place as he caused the storm for another purpose.

My point is that nothing happened that probably couldn't be explained by science other than the timing of the event and my request. So it's entirely possible in any given miracle that God has the option to use natural events to fulfill his purpose. If he does it is still a miracle, even if nobody has any idea.
 
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Niels

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Define miracle operationally so that anyone can apply this definition.
In what sense?

Fundamentally, a miracle is an act of God.

If he is the creator and the sustainer of the universe, then the fact that anything exists at all is arguably miraculous.

I can imagine a comedian having a laugh at this definition. Asking if getting stuck in traffic or every piece of garbage is also arguably miraculous. My answer would be a resounding yes. Think of all that goes into being stuck in traffic or the chain of events leading to the creation of that piece of garbage down to the molecular level. Technically, I don’t see how that’s anything short of miraculous.

Not that I think everything is positive or beneficial, however. We live in a fallen world, but even a fallen and often painful world is miraculous compared to the void. The trouble is that because we live in a fallen world it can be difficult to discern God’s actions from what we might consider to be background noise.

Entire books can be written about the nature of God and what his actions mean.




With that in mind, the following operational definition is what I'm using here:

A miracle is an act of God, not magic or deception, that benefits us while drawing us closer to himself.
 
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Job 33:6

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Some Christians think that the earth is between 6000 to 15,000 years old (coinciding with the Neolithic Age). Astronomers think that it is 4.5 billion years old. Here is an attempt to resolve this incongruity.

Jesus turns water into wine in John 2:
7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim. 8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”​

How old is this wine?

If you ask the servants, the human observers/witnesses, they would say a few seconds old.

The story continues:
9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”​

If you ask the expert, the master of the banquet, "How old is this wine?", he would say it was some months or even years old.

So which answer is true?

Both are true depending on the perspective. The supernatural perspective tells us that it was only a second old. The natural perspective tells us that it was at least some months old.

Similarly, in Genesis 1:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. ... 31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.​

How old is the earth?

If we ask an astronomer from the natural perspective, he can only study the present-day physical data based on scientific calculation. It is 4.5 billion years old. That's the scientific space-time perspective.

On the other hand, from the supernatural angle, if we read the Bible literally, the present-day earth is only some thousands of years old. That's the biblical witnessed-time perspective.

So which answer is true?

Both are true depending on the time perspective. God created the earth with the embedded evolutionary records of billions of years. The Bible is not a scientific treatise. It focuses on the story of redemption. In terms of witnessed-time history, it is only some thousands of years old. On the other hand, from the scientific-time point of view, the earth is billions of years old.

Why would God deceive people or scientists?

God did not deceive people. The results of a miracle, have to obey the laws of physics and space-time.

Did not God create the universe last Thursday?

No, this is not the same as Last Thursdayism because God tells me the contrary. God did not create the universe last Thursday. Genesis contradicts this. As a witness, I can also contradict this. I was alive last Thursday. God was with me. God dwells in me. It happened in real live-time. I didn't see God create this universe last Thursday. I believe in the words of God, not Last Thursdayism.

Jesus spoke about it as a historical witnessed-time event in Mark 10:
6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’​

From the perspective of scientific time, the details of this embedding are amazing:
24,000-year-old animal found alive, well, and ready to reproduce
Fossils reveal what may be the oldest known case of the dino sniffles.

There are two different frameworks of time. Roughly, witnessed-time started when Adam opened his eyes. Space-time is measured by scientific calculations. Even scientifically, there is something funny about time.

I distinguish between these two concepts of time. The Bible speaks of events that happened in the real historical witnessed-time. Scientific research speaks in terms of space-time even when there were no live animals there to observe the original events.
Genesis describes ancient near east cosmology, not geology.

It's the most important detail of the subject, and you seem to have left it out of your post.
And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

God made the dome, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8

And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20

And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;
Genesis 28:12‭-‬13

“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

He has described a circle [earths shape] on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

Have you entered the storehouse of the snow, or seen the armory of the hail,
Job 38:22
God stores his weapons and mana in storehouses to help the isrealites in battle, and to give gifts to His people.

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10

Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,
Psalm 78:23

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

He causes the clouds to arise from the end of the earth, makes lightning bolts accompany the rain, and brings the wind out of his storehouses.
Psalms 135:7

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.
Psalms 150:1

and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And I looked, and look! On the dome that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was why removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14

After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
Revelation 4:1

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he
Screenshot_20230604-064206~2.png
hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8
 
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sparow

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I distinguish between these two concepts of time. The Bible speaks of events that happened in the real historical witnessed-time. Scientific research speaks in terms of space-time even when there were no live animals there to observe the original events. They are both true to me :)
What is space-time; is it mathematical space defined by x, y, and z coordinates with T coordinate added? Or is it a kind of belief?
 
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BNR32FAN

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A created universe is a discoverable universe. The point of a miracle isn't to defy scientific explanation. It's to show that God is the author of creation. The idea being that we should turn to him and be aligned with our creator rather than turn to false gods. Miracles aren't like witchcraft. They aren't magic. That's why we use the term "miraculous" rather than "magical" when describing acts of God.

All of nature is the work of divine agency. There isn't a corner of the universe that exists without his being.

Scientists are practitioners of the scientific method. The scientific method is a useful tool for understanding how nature works. Where some scientists get it wrong is the assumption that our current understanding is a complete understanding. It isn't. Maybe the universe is 4.5 billion years old, but that estimate may change as new evidence is encountered. It might be younger or it might be even older. Either way it still exists. That's the miracle. The fact that it exists at all doesn't change based on the specific details of its age.

Did you read the definition of the word “miracle” I provided in the post you’re replying to? The very definition of the word clearly indicates that it is not explicable by science. The reason we use the word miracle instead of magic is because magic is not exclusively performed by a deity. That’s what separates the usage of those two words.
 
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Niels

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Click on the link in the word "operational".
If you had bothered to read my last reply, you would see that I provided an operational definition at the end.

The information where the link sent me introduced a slight degree of ambiguity to the question, so I prefaced my response with a question of my own. The definition I provided assumed your intent, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to clarify in case that assumption was incorrect.

As you neither responded about the definition I gave you, nor provided additional clarification as requested, it no longer appears to me that your question was asked in good faith. At least I did my part.
 
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tonychanyt

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If you had bothered to read my last reply, you would see that I provided an operational definition at the end.
Sorry that I am slow. Can you display the text and bold the relevant keywords to your point?
 
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Niels

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Did you read the definition of the word “miracle” I provided in the post you’re replying to? The very definition of the word clearly indicates that it is not explicable by science. The reason we use the word miracle instead of magic is because magic is not exclusively performed by a deity. That’s what separates the usage of those two words.
The Bible contains multiple accounts of people "performing" miracles. In part to show that they were aligned with God's will. The execution isn't exclusively performed by a diety despite depending on God's will. Likewise, an act supposedly performed by Zeus or Freya would fail to meet the definition of miracle as I understand the term. If the action was performed by God but misattributed to a mythological character I could see it still being considered miraculous, but would be better articulated as deception or magic. Not to mention that magic might also be sufficiently advanced technology! Unlike magic, however, a miracle doesn't depend on our lack of understanding regarding the methods used.

The idea that a miracle cannot explainable by science must be a recent one, and therefore must be rejected as it doesn't reflect the original intent of the word. As far as I'm aware, an act of God is an act of God regardless. He is free to use all of the tools in his arsenal.
 
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Niels

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Sorry that I am slow. Can you display the text and bold the relevant keywords to your point?


No worries.

Miles said:
With that in mind, the following operational definition is what I'm using here:

A miracle is an act of God, not magic or deception, that benefits us while drawing us closer to himself.
 
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