How old is the earth?

[BNR32FAN]

You will be interested to know that I discovered teaching by Dr Hugh Ross, an Astrophysicist and committed Christian at Grace Christian Church. I'm quite impressed with his adherence to God's inspired Word and that God started work on the redemption of mankind before He created the heavens and the earth. Also he teaches that God created time and space which means that He exists outside of time and space. All that makes a lot of sense to me.

What is significant however, is that he teaches that the six days of creation were time periods in the earth's history rather than strict 24 hour days. How he describes it also makes sense to me. As a fully qualified Astrophysicist with decades of research and experience he knows what he is talking about. The way he teaches it gives me food for thought and is changing my view of Genesis 1-3.

You must have been praying that I see the light!!
Here is the link to his video,

I can argue black and blue concerning a position that I hold, but when the Holy Spirit steps in and shows me a different way, it shows me that there is always something to learn!

Ok I found a video by Hugh Ross and I haven’t finished it yet but already I see a problem where he claims that we’re still in the seventh day of rest but the Hebrew words used in every single reference to God resting on the seventh day are used in the past tense form indicating that this is a past event not a present event.

 

[Halbhh]

It "appears" you may be saying God showed Moses one thing - when in fact it is actually another thing that really happened

God showed what happened -- real things. Reality.

Ah!, I see now -- you must have written this post before you read my main post to you: #317. Here's a link to it again if anyone is interested:
Post #317

Hopefully, that's entirely cleared up that question by now. I'm very focused on the precise details in Genesis 1, as you have seen in post #317.

 

[Halbhh]

now lets observe all the details you needed to skip over from vs 2 to vs 8

Would you like to hear all of those details about every sentence -- I have written them all out. Just not in one massive lengthy post! (you might not want to....I'm not assuming you do)

I was just trying to write a shorter post under 1000 words.
So I needed to skip lengthy paragraphs I've already written elsewhere on other verses (not in this thread).

Bob, you used the phrase "needed to skip" (I quoted that just above) -- and maybe by that phrase you meant needed to skip 'in order to be able to see much correspondence to modern evidence from the sciences' --?

(is that what you meant?) (or if not that, then what did you mean?)

It turns out that every verse also today has some partial or even extensive evidence from modern sciences if you include things found recently, within in the last 5, 6 years.

Many that have only heard views from science theories of like 10 and 20 years ago would not be aware of that.

About 99% of people you talk with won't know about recent findings unless they follow news about science findings very extensively (or have read all my posts for years).

But as I said at the end: if the supporting physical evidence became too easily clear and unarguable, that would cause a real problem with what is wanted of us in the NT == about what faith is precisely (it's to believe without seeing (without seeing proof ahead of time). Make sense?

 

[BobRyan]

God showed what happened -- real things. Reality.

Ah!, I see now -- you must have written this post before you read my main post to you: #317. Here's a link to it again if anyone is interested:
Post #317

Hopefully, that's entirely cleared up that question by now. I'm very focused on the precise details in Genesis 1, as you have seen in post #317.

The timeline in Gen 1-2 can't be married to the stories in modern evolutionism's timeline since a literal 7 day creation is not at all compatible with the modern doctrine on origins. We might both agree on that.

The timeline in Gen 1-2 is literal history, it is literally what happened at creation week and not a poetic symbolism for it - since that timeframe is also in the legal code of Ex 20:11 stating that this is literally the timeline of what actually happened.

 

[Halbhh]

it is literally what happened at creation week and not a poetic symbolism for it

That's like my view: I don't think it's poetical symbolism or allegory either. I think (saying this yet again, forgive me if it's repetitive) it's just like what happened precisely.
The details are real (though they are also only brief and not lengthy like a treatise).

While I only talked about 3 or 4 of those many details in post #317 (where I intentionally only addressed just a few verses-- but it's the same for all the other verses: they are about real events just like they happened, and today we have some physical evidence for every verse, some more extensively, some less....)

And about what the text is instead of poetical symbolism (which it is not at all), I addressed some of the manner of how the text was given in Post #290

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I can’t see the video. For some reason lately I’ve been having this problem where every YouTube video posted in CF says “oops try watching this video on YouTube kids”. I’m not sure if anyone else is having this problem but when I go to YouTube kids and try to watch it they want to charge me for a subscription which I’m not interested in paying. One thing I would like to point out is you can’t trust someone just because they’re a “scholar” because there are seminary colleges for every single denomination under the sun and they all have different theologies so that right there tells us that just because someone has a degree from a seminary doesn’t mean that they’re right because there’s only one truth and if they don’t agree then someone has to be wrong. That’s why I realized quickly after becoming a Christian that it’s important that we study the scriptures for ourself because that’s the only way to determine if what someone is preaching actually coincides with the scriptures or not.

One way around the problem may be to go to Youtube direct and view the video from there.

 

[FaithT]

Just an informal poll….who here thinks the earth/universe may be 6000+ years old? And any science to back that view up?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Just an informal poll….who here thinks the earth/universe may be 6000+ years old? And any science to back that view up?

Probably many billions of years.

 

[FaithT]

Probably many billions of years.

Do you mind my asking what denomination you are? I’m Lutheran LCMS.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Do you mind my asking what denomination you are? I’m Lutheran LCMS.

I was Pentacostal/Charismatic for many years. I am returning to my childhood faith which is Episcopalian/Anglican

 

[FaithT]

I was Pentacostal/Charismatic for many years. I am returning to my childhood faith which is Episcopalian/Anglican

I grew up Catholic and then, long story short, I have been Lutheran for about 5 years. Sometimes I think about returning to the RCC but then on the rare occasions I go to Mass I miss the Lutheran church. I prefer daily Mass to Saturday vigil Mass. The singing prayers and the responses, along with the music is something I dislike. A lot. And I love the music at the Lutheran church I go to. It’s style of worship is very contemporary.

I was also saddened a few times when favorite priests got reassigned elsewhere and liked that the pastors in my Lutheran church stay put. Now my favorite pastor took another job elsewhere as a school chaplain. That and I ran into one of my former RCC parishioners Sunday and she was trying to get me to return to my old parish. I know the door is always open for my return if I choose to go back, but again, their two priests whom I really like have both just been reassigned to other parishes.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think what people need to understand is that the scriptures provide a foundation and parameters that our interpretations must coincide with in order to be considered biblical and plausible. If an interpretation contradicts the scriptures then it cannot be considered biblical or plausible, it’s a false doctrine. We’re not just free to adopt any interpretation that suits us, if it doesn’t fit within the parameters set in place by the scriptures then it’s just fantasy.

 

[Halbhh]

Do you mind my asking what denomination you are? I’m Lutheran LCMS.

Ah, that's interesting, and there's something I wanted to ask about LCMS practices re YEC. (Just in case you are curious about my own church background, I could easily have been settling down (as I have now finally) in any of quite a variety of churches -- because I grew attending a wide variety of churches. When we moved about 13 years ago to a new state, we happened to visit first a very nearby Lutheran church, and it's been a great church, so we've stayed. It's very theologically conservative in general (of course). Theologically it seems Lutheran churches are the most focused on the bible of any church of any kind (of the 10 denominations I know a fair amount about from attending services and reading their doctrines). When we liked the church, I then reviewed their doctrines and it's all just the most standard Christians doctrines you'd find in the soundest, most careful churches (I think ELCA and LCMS are probably very alike in that way). Of course they list all of the old standard Lutheran doctrines, in a long list, but they follow them all also.)

Here's what I'm wondering, if you don't mind my asking --
I have read that LCMS states YEC as a doctrine (is that right?), and my question is whether or not you hear YEC preached from the pulpit ever? (that is, does it get special emphasis by preaching from the pulpit?)

 

[BNR32FAN]

One way around the problem may be to go to Youtube direct and view the video from there.

What’s the title of the video? I can’t see the title in the link you posted, just a black box that says oops try using YouTube kids.

 

[FaithT]

Ah, that's interesting, and there's something I wanted to ask about LCMS practices re YEC. (Just in case you are curious about my own church background, I could easily have been settling down (as I have now finally) in any of quite a variety of churches -- because I grew attending a wide variety of churches. When we moved about 13 years ago to a new state, we happened to visit first a very nearby Lutheran church, and it's been a great church, so we've stayed. It's very theologically conservative in general (of course). Theologically it seems Lutheran churches are the most focused on the bible of any church of any kind (of the 10 denominations I know a fair amount about from attending services and reading their doctrines). When we liked the church, I then reviewed their doctrines and it's all just the most standard Christians doctrines you'd find in the soundest, most careful churches (I think ELCA and LCMS are probably very alike in that way). Of course they list all of the old standard Lutheran doctrines, in a long list, but they follow them all also.)

Here's what I'm wondering, if you don't mind my asking --
I have read that LCMS states YEC as a doctrine (is that right?), and my question is whether or not you hear YEC preached from the pulpit ever? (that is, does it get special emphasis by preaching from the pulpit?)

I’ve never heard them preach about YEC. I’ve been struggling with the whole YEC church teaching and have had MANY conversations with my pastor about it. He was ok with my being OEC but I’ve been trying to see the other side of this.

 

[FaithT]

Ah, that's interesting, and there's something I wanted to ask about LCMS practices re YEC. (Just in case you are curious about my own church background, I could easily have been settling down (as I have now finally) in any of quite a variety of churches -- because I grew attending a wide variety of churches. When we moved about 13 years ago to a new state, we happened to visit first a very nearby Lutheran church, and it's been a great church, so we've stayed. It's very theologically conservative in general (of course). Theologically it seems Lutheran churches are the most focused on the bible of any church of any kind (of the 10 denominations I know a fair amount about from attending services and reading their doctrines). When we liked the church, I then reviewed their doctrines and it's all just the most standard Christians doctrines you'd find in the soundest, most careful churches (I think ELCA and LCMS are probably very alike in that way). Of course they list all of the old standard Lutheran doctrines, in a long list, but they follow them all also.)

Here's what I'm wondering, if you don't mind my asking --
I have read that LCMS states YEC as a doctrine (is that right?), and my question is whether or not you hear YEC preached from the pulpit ever? (that is, does it get special emphasis by preaching from the pulpit?)

I don’t know if YEC is doctrine but it’s what they believe. A poster from another board says it’s not doctrine.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

I don’t know if YEC is doctrine but it’s what they believe. A poster from another board says it’s not doctrine.

It is a stated doctrine according to the LCMS 1932 Statement of Faith. It's been over 20 years since Ive been LCMS but as I recall, pastors would required to believe that. Laity are held to a looser standard.

We teach that God has created heaven and earth, and that in the manner and in the space of time recorded in the Holy Scriptures, especially Gen. 1 and 2, namely, by His almighty creative word, and in six days. We reject every doctrine which denies or limits the work of creation as taught in Scripture. In our days it is denied or limited by those who assert, ostensibly in deference to science, that the world came into existence through a process of evolution; that is, that it has, in immense periods of time, developed more or less of itself. Since no man was present when it pleased God to create the world, we must look for a reliable account of creation to God's own record, found in God's own book, the Bible. We accept God's own record with full confidence and confess with Luther's Catechism: "I believe that God has made me and all creatures."​

Brief Statement of LCMS Doctrinal Position - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

A Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod.

www.lcms.org

 

[FaithT]

It is a stated doctrine according to the LCMS 1932 Statement of Faith. It's been over 20 years since Ive been LCMS but as I recall, pastors would required to believe that. Laity are held to a looser standard.

We teach that God has created heaven and earth, and that in the manner and in the space of time recorded in the Holy Scriptures, especially Gen. 1 and 2, namely, by His almighty creative word, and in six days. We reject every doctrine which denies or limits the work of creation as taught in Scripture. In our days it is denied or limited by those who assert, ostensibly in deference to science, that the world came into existence through a process of evolution; that is, that it has, in immense periods of time, developed more or less of itself. Since no man was present when it pleased God to create the world, we must look for a reliable account of creation to God's own record, found in God's own book, the Bible. We accept God's own record with full confidence and confess with Luther's Catechism: "I believe that God has made me and all creatures."​

Brief Statement of LCMS Doctrinal Position - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

A Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod.

www.lcms.org

Yes, that’s what that other poster from a different board said. That pastors are required to believe that, but laity are held to a looser standard. There’s nothing in Luther’s Small Catechism about it.
But this bothers me so much that I sometimes want to return to the RCC.

 

[FaithT]

It is a stated doctrine according to the LCMS 1932 Statement of Faith. It's been over 20 years since Ive been LCMS but as I recall, pastors would required to believe that. Laity are held to a looser standard.

We teach that God has created heaven and earth, and that in the manner and in the space of time recorded in the Holy Scriptures, especially Gen. 1 and 2, namely, by His almighty creative word, and in six days. We reject every doctrine which denies or limits the work of creation as taught in Scripture. In our days it is denied or limited by those who assert, ostensibly in deference to science, that the world came into existence through a process of evolution; that is, that it has, in immense periods of time, developed more or less of itself. Since no man was present when it pleased God to create the world, we must look for a reliable account of creation to God's own record, found in God's own book, the Bible. We accept God's own record with full confidence and confess with Luther's Catechism: "I believe that God has made me and all creatures."​

Brief Statement of LCMS Doctrinal Position - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

A Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod.

www.lcms.org

Maybe the doctrine changed? All I know is that, like you said earlier, the pastors are to believe in a YEC POV. The laity to a looser standard. Yet everyone at my church that I’ve spoken to about this has a YEC POV.

 

[Halbhh]

Maybe the doctrine changed? All I know is that, like you said earlier, the pastors are to believe in a YEC POV. The laity to a looser standard. Yet everyone at my church that I’ve spoken to about this has a YEC POV.

Hmmm....well, though each individual pastor is always going to have different emphasis on different things, and so every individual church is therefore somewhat unique in what is preached in terms of emphasis and what's chosen to be preached on, and more....so that you'd have to visit an individual church to find out what it's like and cannot (even for a Catholic church) be sure it will be a certain way, I'd suggest to try out an ELCA church near you just in case it's doing well, as many will be. Generally they are theologically conservative, preaching to help us all be working to do as Christ taught we should do, as He Himself specifically instructed

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

So, on most Sundays, the great majority of ELCA pastors will do just that (we had many visit during an interim). After hearing Christ's words in the gospel reading, the sermon is then on us living as He taught us to do, obeying His commands. Putting His teaching into practice.
You can expect that in an ELCA Lutheran church. (and should never settle for less of course -- no matter what church type, from a-z, if that isn't happening, then leave to find a church that does as Christ said and teaches all He commanded, that we should do as He commanded in our lives)