How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

KCDAD · Dec 26, 2009

First of all, no one should be allowed to discuss The Bible or argue its meaning if they are reading it from a translation (and especially if it is a paraphrase). If you don't respect it enough to read it in the original language and context, then just shut up.

Secondly, the Olivet Discourse if clearly evidence of the New Testaments' late authorship. Prophets do not tell you what "WILL BE", but only what "MIGHT BE" if people don't change their ways... It is only through hindsight that "prophets" are able to accurately predict anything.

Gregory Thompson · Dec 26, 2009

KCDAD said:
First of all, no one should be allowed to discuss The Bible or argue its meaning if they are reading it from a translation (and especially if it is a paraphrase). If you don't respect it enough to read it in the original language and context, then just shut up.

Matthew 7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Then consider this point equally dismissed .

KCDAD said:
Secondly, the Olivet Discourse if clearly evidence of the New Testaments' late authorship. Prophets do not tell you what "WILL BE", but only what "MIGHT BE" if people don't change their ways... It is only through hindsight that "prophets" are able to accurately predict anything.

This is resonant of my thoughts though (the hindsight sentiment mostly) . Matthew and revelation seem to have been written around the same time . how do you render their authorship ? what years?

KCDAD · Dec 26, 2009

Michael Collum
Then consider this point equally dismissed .

I guess that means the conversation is over... ?

This is resonant of my thoughts though (the hindsight sentiment mostly) . Matthew and revelation seem to have been written around the same time . how do you render their authorship ? what years?

Matthew written by a group of Jewish followers... possibly followers of Matthew Levi... when? Late in 1st century... 80-90 CE

Revelation, again a collection of writers trying to write in allegory form (just like Dante and his inferno) a discussion of the anti-imperial message of Jesus' teachings. When? Probably compiled or orally transmitted earlier than the Gospels, in the 50s perhaps, but written contemporaneously with the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.

The problems with dating authorship is that excludes the oral traditions from which the written arose. No one, with the notable exception of Paul, probably just sat down and said... I am now gonna write a history of Jesus or the church. They more likely said... these stories have been going around for awhile, someone better write them down before we lose them forever... or... write them down and send them to other side of the world so they can hear the stories.

Gregory Thompson · Dec 26, 2009

KCDAD said:
I guess that means the conversation is over...

Nope, just dismissing the prior dismissive tone so the conversation could continue . Consequently, the two "measurements" seemed to cancel one another out .

KCDAD said:
Matthew written by a group of Jewish followers... possibly followers of Matthew Levi... when? Late in 1st century... 80-90 CE

Revelation, again a collection of writers trying to write in allegory form (just like Dante and his inferno) a discussion of the anti-imperial message of Jesus' teachings. When? Probably compiled or orally transmitted earlier than the Gospels, in the 50s perhaps, but written contemporaneously with the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.

The problems with dating authorship is that excludes the oral traditions from which the written arose. No one, with the notable exception of Paul, probably just sat down and said... I am now gonna write a history of Jesus or the church. They more likely said... these stories have been going around for awhile, someone better write them down before we lose them forever... or... write them down and send them to other side of the world so they can hear the stories.

Authorship is an interesting issue . its really hard to resolve because 1) we weren't there 2) the writings of the church fathers display certain teachings in certain places but then you find one letter earlier than expected teaching another concept .

Personally i find Jesus spoke a different message . Paul tried to continue it . but then after he died . the grace kinda left with him and the rest of the pattern can be illustrated via a figurative fulfillment of Israel starting from "Joshua" and continuing into the judges period . and then the kings era . hmm lots of division isn't there? but just a co-incidence i'm sure

But i guess my point was . based on which you thought was written first (Revelation or Matthew) would in many ways serve to form your opinion of a varied accounting of similar (perhaps future) events

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 26, 2009

Michael Collum said:
Matthew 7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Then consider this point equally dismissed .

This is resonant of my thoughts though (the hindsight sentiment mostly) . Matthew and revelation seem to have been written around the same time . how do you render their authorship ? what years?

Interesting post
Does anyone here think Paul had knowlege of the book of Revelation as he and James both mention the same "Parousia" as Jesus did in the Gospels.
Btw, the word "Parousia" Jesus spoke of is used only in the Gospel of Matthew, and all of them in Matt 24. Thoughts?

Matthew 24:3 Of sitting yet of Him upon the Mount of the Olives toward-came to Him the Disciples according to own saying "be telling to us when? shall these-things be and what? the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952> and the together-Finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age" [Daniel 12/Revelation 15:1]

James 5:8 be ye patient! also stand-fast/sthrixate <4741> the hearts of ye, that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448>

1 Corin 15:23 Each yet in the own rank, a firstfruit Christ, thereafter the ones of the Christ in the Parousia <3952> of Him
24 thereafter the End/teloV <5056>,

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 26, 2009

brinny said:
i already voted...i'm still with not sure....that's quite deeep, amigo

Tis "deep" indeed

John 4:11 Is saying to Him, the woman "Lord! not a bucket Thou are having and the well/frear <5421> is deep/baqu <901>, whence then Thou are having the water, the living?

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth Messager trumpets and I saw a Star out of the heaven having fallen into the land, and was given to him the key of the well/freatoV <5421> of the Abyss/abussou <12>,

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 26, 2009

KCDAD said:
First of all, no one should be allowed to discuss The Bible or argue its meaning if they are reading it from a translation (and especially if it is a paraphrase). If you don't respect it enough to read it in the original language and context, then just shut up.

Secondly, the Olivet Discourse if clearly evidence of the New Testaments' late authorship. Prophets do not tell you what "WILL BE", but only what "MIGHT BE" if people don't change their ways... It is only through hindsight that "prophets" are able to accurately predict anything.

I would tend to agree......all my own translations of the Bible are taken from the original hebrew and greek texts.
I recommend a good greek/hebrew interlinear also and I found this one to be quite good

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

KCDAD · Dec 26, 2009

Michael Collum said:
Authorship is an interesting issue . its really hard to resolve because 1) we weren't there 2) the writings of the church fathers display certain teachings in certain places but then you find one letter earlier than expected teaching another concept .

Personally i find Jesus spoke a different message . Paul tried to continue it . but then after he died . the grace kinda left with him and the rest of the pattern can be illustrated via a figurative fulfillment of Israel starting from "Joshua" and continuing into the judges period . and then the kings era . hmm lots of division isn't there? but just a co-incidence i'm sure

But i guess my point was . based on which you thought was written first (Revelation or Matthew) would in many ways serve to form your opinion of a varied accounting of similar (perhaps future) events

Which first? I would guess Revelation first, although the Matthew oral tradition (supported by Mark and the Q, wisdom and teachings documents) would be much older.

Gregory Thompson · Dec 26, 2009

KCDAD said:
Which first? I would guess Revelation first, although the Matthew oral tradition (supported by Mark and the Q, wisdom and teachings documents) would be much older.

Okay, as another similar text James seems to refer to revelation extensively while doubling as a Luke-Matthew harmony and Gospel meditation .

so considering the differed order of events between Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation . (would you say the letters in revelation 2&3 would have been circulating before or after Paul's death?)

would you say

1) these are two separate events

2) these are the same event

3) these are a progressive understanding of the event from the same period and the second published is correct .

4) Judging from "sitz im leben" in the text . these are written in the same time period and the first published is correct .

KCDAD · Dec 27, 2009

Michael Collum said:
Okay, as another similar text James seems to refer to revelation extensively while doubling as a Luke-Matthew harmony and Gospel meditation .

so considering the differed order of events between Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation . (would you say the letters in revelation 2&3 would have been circulating before or after Paul's death?)

would you say

1) these are two separate events

2) these are the same event

3) these are a progressive understanding of the event from the same period and the second published is correct .

4) Judging from "sitz im leben" in the text . these are written in the same time period and the first published is correct .

I already stated I think there was one destruction of Jerusalem that profoundly affected the Jews in the mid first century. All of the New Testament Gospels refer to it in one way or another. So, yes, Revelation is anti-imperialist propaganda...

Jeffwhosoever · Dec 27, 2009

KCDAD said:
So, yes, Revelation is anti-imperialist propaganda...

What do you mean by this statement?

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 27, 2009

Originally Posted by KCDAD

So, yes, Revelation is anti-imperialist propaganda...

Jeffwhosoever said:
What do you mean by this statement?

I was hoping I wasn't the only one was confused on that

KCDAD · Dec 27, 2009

Jeffwhosoever said:
What do you mean by this statement?

It is about resistance against the Roman Imperial system... The Jews were being systematically destroyed by the "worldliness" of the Romans and Greek Empires. They were losing their traditions and culture to the 1st Century version of "The American Way". Their language, their economic systems their way of life was being destroyed.
It is exactly the same thing going on today with other countries where we are spreading our hegemony.
The Zealots were militant revolutionaries, and the Essenes were the escapist survivalists in the caves... The Saduccees were strict fundamentalists and The Pharisees were those willing to sacrifice their principles and become Hellenized... go along to get along, so to speak.

This is why the Gospel is relevant to us today... there is always an empire out there trying to destroy indigenous peoples and their cultures. Always trying to make it seem worthwhile to join them rather than resist. In America we see the Amish and the Mennonites trying to resist this "empire" and live within their own Kingdom of God." Other cults practic ethe swame resistence like the Mormons, until they get "mainstreamed" and coopted by the society.
Revelation is the Jerusalem Church warning to its members to resist and hold out against Roman Imperialism... it is gonna get real bad, but in the end it will all be ok. Who is the Anti-Christ? Nero, the Roman Emperor. Yes, Matthew warns, they will come in with their armies and destroy the temple, but we will survive and rebuild our lives and culture.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 27, 2009

KCDAD said:
*snip*

.........Who is the Anti-Christ? Nero, the Roman Emperor. Yes, Matthew warns, they will come in with their armies and destroy the temple, but we will survive and rebuild our lives and culture.

Thanks for clarifying that for KCDAD

KCDAD · Dec 28, 2009

LittleLambofJesus said:
Thanks for clarifying that for KCDAD

That's it? No "what a great summary of the new testament message"?

Gregory Thompson · Dec 28, 2009

I'm glad you brought that up KCDAD, it will help in writing tailored messages to you in the future . I understand that parallel to some degree also .

brinny · Dec 28, 2009

Originally Posted by KCDAD So, yes, Revelation is anti-imperialist propaganda...

Originally Posted by Jeffwhosoever
What do you mean by this statement

LittleLambofJesus said:
I was hoping I wasn't the only one was confused on that

was wondering myself...

brinny · Dec 28, 2009

KCDAD said:
It is about resistance against the Roman Imperial system... The Jews were being systematically destroyed by the "worldliness" of the Romans and Greek Empires. They were losing their traditions and culture to the 1st Century version of "The American Way". Their language, their economic systems their way of life was being destroyed.
It is exactly the same thing going on today with other countries where we are spreading our hegemony.
The Zealots were militant revolutionaries, and the Essenes were the escapist survivalists in the caves... The Saduccees were strict fundamentalists and The Pharisees were those willing to sacrifice their principles and become Hellenized... go along to get along, so to speak.

This is why the Gospel is relevant to us today... there is always an empire out there trying to destroy indigenous peoples and their cultures. Always trying to make it seem worthwhile to join them rather than resist. In America we see the Amish and the Mennonites trying to resist this "empire" and live within their own Kingdom of God." Other cults practic ethe swame resistence like the Mormons, until they get "mainstreamed" and coopted by the society.
Revelation is the Jerusalem Church warning to its members to resist and hold out against Roman Imperialism... it is gonna get real bad, but in the end it will all be ok. Who is the Anti-Christ? Nero, the Roman Emperor. Yes, Matthew warns, they will come in with their armies and destroy the temple, but we will survive and rebuild our lives and culture.

hmmmm....munchin on this.....

B1inHim · Dec 28, 2009

Wellllll, according to scripture we still have the abomination of desolation and the moon and sun to get blood red and sackclothy needs to still take place...

Oh Oh Oh and then... and THEN Lord Jesus shows up and does His in the sky fly-by to gather us all up...He does not return to the planet, otherwise He would have said so in the Matthew 24 prophecy. He didn't say it, it doesn't happen.... yet.

Well, that what my bible says anyhow...

Love,
Your servant Brother Jerry

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 29, 2009

B1inHim said:
Wellllll, according to scripture we still have the abomination of desolation and the moon and sun to get blood red and sackclothy needs to still take place...

Oh Oh Oh and then... and THEN Lord Jesus shows up and does His in the sky fly-by to gather us all up...He does not return to the planet, otherwise He would have said so in the Matthew 24 prophecy. He didn't say it, it doesn't happen.... yet.

Well, that what my bible says anyhow...

Love,
Your servant Brother Jerry

Thank you for your views bro.....
Any idea where that AoD is showing in Revelation since the Olivet Discourse and Revelation appear to be the same event? Just curious. God bless

Revelation 1:3 Happy the one reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723) and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings the in it having been written, for the time nigh.

Matt 24:15 "Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation the being declared thru Daniel the Prophet having stood in a place, holy (the one reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723) let be understanding!/noeitw <3539> (5720) [Mark 13:14]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7276015/
Olivet Discourse and Revelation Same Event?

How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

Amount of Matt 24 fulfilled

I view all of it fulfilled

I view it as mostly/partially fulfilled

I view it as none of it is fulfilled

I don't really know

Other [please explain]

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Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

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Faithful Servant & Seminary Student

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Well-Known Member

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places

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LOVE one another

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