How might Satan Mimic the Second Coming in the Clouds of Heaven?

[TribulationSigns]

You should read more carefully what I said.

Correction: You should read more carefully what Bible says that should be your authority. Not your understanding or intuition. The Word of God does not depend on anyone's intuition. It must be examined by the Scripture... which I know for a fact that your intuition with full of speculations must be dismissed. I am more interested in proof of Scripture to support your interpretation in regarding your so-called "antichrist" you believe has to do with (ahem) the Vatican.

If I was satan

Ahhh, where do I read that in your post in the first place or more importantly, the Bible? The assumption, outside Scripture, is the mother of all errors so don't waste your time like this. You should seek Christ's wisdom with His Word, not your feeling or intuition.

Pro 16:25
(25) There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

[parousia70]

No, you do not have it right, in that you misinterpreted what I wrote, then put words in my mouth I did not say. I think I was clear in that yes there is a new heaven and new earth, just as the Apostle John describes in Revelation. The 1000 years is prior to that point in time. You are getting context mixed up. Or you just want to argue for argument's sake.

Here is my view of Scripture which at least at present I interpret through the lens of Futurism as well you should know by now through all my posts.

Rapture-3.5 years-Wrath of God begins - 3.5 years - end of great tribulation - 1000 year reign of Christ - then a new heaven and new earth.

It seems pretty straightforward to me. the Isaiah 65 passage that Isaiah says describes the New heavens and earth, you say: no, that passage does not describe the new heavens and earth at all.
You don’t say why you believe The scripture doesn’t mean what it says, so I offered up a couple questions of what I thought might be possible options of why you would believe this way.
Either you believe Isaiah was wrong, he lied, he was ignorant, or he was speaking in code… Is there another option?
How is it that you can claim to know more about what Isaiah taught than Isaiah himself?

Isaiah says “in the new heaves and earth there will be x,y,z etc...”
You say no. Isaiah is wrong.

I’m sorry but when faced with choosing which of these two polar opposite viewpoints to accept as true and correct, yours, or that of the inspired prophet of God, Isaiah, I’m gonna have to go with the prophet.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Here is what the Bible Knowledge Commentary documents about Isaiah 65:17-25. These are words of this man: Dr. John A. Martin Appointed to Perkins - SMU Perkins School of Theology in the Bible Knowledge commentary, not my words, though they agree with what I wrote above regarding Isaiah:
"In these verses the Lord described the millennial kingdom, which is seemingly identified here with the eternal state (new heavens and a new earth). In Revelation, however, the new heavens and new earth (Rev. 21:1) follow the Millennium (Rev. 20:4). Most likely Isaiah did not distinguish between these two aspects of God's rule; he saw them together as one. After all, the Millennium, though 1,000 years in duration, will be a mere pinpoint of time compared with the eternal state. The need for new heavens and a new earth is suggested in Isaiah 51:6. During the Millennium Jerusalem will be a place of joy (65:18). Also the Lord Himself will rejoice over it, for sorrow will be vanished (v. 19). Though death will stay be present, life spans will be extended (v. 20) and people will enjoy safety and the produce of their vineyards (vv. 21-22). God's blessings will be on their work and families (v. 23) and He will speedily answer their prayers (v. 24). Wild animals will lose their ferocity (cf. 11:6-8; Hosea 2:18) and harmony and safety will prevail under God's good hand (Isa. 65:25)."

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

It seems pretty straightforward to me. the Isaiah 65 passage that Isaiah says describes the New heaves and earth you say: no, that passage describes the millennium.

I’m sorry but when faced with choosing which of these two polar opposite viewpoints to accept as true and correct, yours, or that of the inspired prophet of God, Isaiah, I’m gonna have to go with the prophet.

Polar opposites is a false dichotomy. There is no reason for inconsistency between what the Apostle John wrote in Revelation, describing the eternal state of the new heavens and new earth, and what the prophet Isaiah wrote many years earlier in the Old Testament. All one needs to do is have insight described by Dr. John Martin wrote above in the Bible Knowledge Commentary I cite above to understand that Isaiah and John's prophecies are about the exact same thing. Isaiah's order is just not linear in chronological time, but that doesn't mean there is some disagreement between Isaiah and the Apostle John's prophecies.

Beyond that, it is pretty simple to understand that in the eternal state, there is no death. Eternal actually means eternal.

 

[GraceInChrist]

Correction: You should read more carefully what Bible says that should be your authority. Not your understanding or intuition. The Word of God does not depend on anyone's intuition. It must be examined by the Scripture... which I know for a fact that your intuition with full of speculations must be dismissed. I am more interested in proof of Scripture to support your interpretation in regarding your so-called "antichrist" you believe has to do with (ahem) the Vatican.



Ahhh, where do I read that in your post in the first place or more importantly, the Bible? The assumption, outside Scripture, is the mother of all errors so don't waste your time like this. You should seek Christ's wisdom with His Word, not your feeling or intuition.

Pro 16:25
(25) There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Are you really this type of person. When someone gives a personal point of view without being dogmatic, you came to say you have no right to speculate. I read the bible, no need to be patronizing.

 

[Timtofly]

Who says it’s supposed to stop?

This prophecy you claim that is fulfilled in 70AD.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Isaiah 65 certainly cannot be referring to A.D 70...here is just one reason why:

Verse 25" 'The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox,"

Has anyone noticed any wolves eating grass since A.D 70? I think i can safely say i live around 2000 years after this event and lions still very much eat prey animals (such as lambs)!

 

[Hammster]

Obviously, you assumed it was in 70AD, and since Jesus Christ did not come "physically", you used "the clouds" as an excuse to support your flawed doctrine.

No, I used the OT references to understand what was being said. Scripture interprets scripture. Also, I used the “soon” and “this generation” references to understand that it would happen within that generation.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, I used the OT references to understand what was being said. Scripture interprets scripture. Also, I used the “soon” and “this generation” references to understand that it would happen within that generation.

Please quit stonewalling. Please read my previous post below again slowly and answer questions to see if your claim is accurate with the "clouds of heaven." You said "Scripture interprets Scripture," right? Well, prove it with the cloud, then. Don't throw the "soon" or "this generation" here as a distraction tactic (this has been refuted before, remember?).

Let read my post together again, shall we? And see if you can answer my questions. Here you go:

Mat 24:29-31
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The tribulation has nothing to do with 70AD. The sound of trumpet did not sound in 70AD. The gathering together elect did not occur in 70AD. You do not even know what is the meaning of the clouds in Scripture. For example:

Rev 11:11-12
(11) And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
(12) And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Let examine your understanding...Who are the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11 that receive power to preach Gospel? What is this Spirit of Life that resurrects Two Witnessed after 3-1/2 days (hint: not literally) of being killed by the beast? What death did they resurrect from? Is it physically or spiritually? To ascended up to heaven IN A CLOUD. Why? Show me the Scripture instead of making some speculations "without" Scripture that this "cloud" somehow applies to 70AD.

What does the cloud signify in Scripture? Remember you said Scripture interprets Scripture. Show us. Take your time.

 

[Hammster]

Please quit stonewalling. Please read my previous post below again slowly and answer questions to see if your claim is accurate with the "clouds of heaven." You said "Scripture interprets Scripture," right? Well, prove it with the cloud, then. Don't throw the "soon" or "this generation" here as a distraction tactic (this has been refuted before, remember?).

Let read my post together again, shall we? And see if you can answer my questions. Here you go:



What does the cloud signify in Scripture? Remember you said Scripture interprets Scripture. Show us. Take your time.

Isaiah 19.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Here is what the Bible Knowledge Commentary documents about Isaiah 65:17-25. These are words of this man: Dr. John A. Martin Appointed to Perkins - SMU Perkins School of Theology in the Bible Knowledge commentary, not my words, though they agree with what I wrote above regarding Isaiah:
"In these verses the Lord described the millennial kingdom, which is seemingly identified here with the eternal state (new heavens and a new earth). In Revelation, however, the new heavens and new earth (Rev. 21:1) follow the Millennium (Rev. 20:4). Most likely Isaiah did not distinguish between these two aspects of God's rule; he saw them together as one. After all, the Millennium, though 1,000 years in duration, will be a mere pinpoint of time compared with the eternal state. The need for new heavens and a new earth is suggested in Isaiah 51:6. During the Millennium Jerusalem will be a place of joy (65:18). Also the Lord Himself will rejoice over it, for sorrow will be vanished (v. 19). Though death will stay be present, life spans will be extended (v. 20) and people will enjoy safety and the produce of their vineyards (vv. 21-22). God's blessings will be on their work and families (v. 23) and He will speedily answer their prayers (v. 24). Wild animals will lose their ferocity (cf. 11:6-8; Hosea 2:18) and harmony and safety will prevail under God's good hand (Isa. 65:25)."

Premil doesn't add up. Let us look at a few absurdities that attend the doctrine.

In Premil:

· Glorified saints and mortal rebels inherit the same new incorruptible earth.
· The Premil age of Aquarius sees the majestic unchallenged righteous rule of Christ on earth end in a debacle – with a mass global rebellion by the millennial inhabitants.
· We have the biggest religious turn-around in history: from a millennial kingdom where the nations wholesale submit to Christ in righteousness to a mass revival of Satanism as "the sand of the sea." The Premillennial millennium culminates in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as “the sand of the sea” against the “camp of the saints.”
· You have the removal of the curse and corruption at the second coming and yet sin, death and decay continues and expands.
· This undesirable mongrel earth is equally filled with glorified saints and mortal rebels, righteousness and unrighteousness, sin and sinlessness, immortality and mortality, peace and harmony and war and terror. This concept is totally unknown to Scripture.
· You have the Jewish temple rebuilt even though the eternal temple “not made with hands” is standing on the new earth in all His “power and glory.” You have the eliminated priesthood revived to rival Christ. You have animal sacrifices resurrected after Christ abolished them forever.
· You have Christ deceived by these phony religious devotees travelling to Jerusalem every yr to act out their forced worship or else you have Him willingly presiding over a prolonged sham.
· You have the lion and lamb enjoying millennial bliss until the slaughter truck pulls up to drag the lambs, goats and bullocks to the temple in Jerusalem for sacrifice in the presence of Jesus. Amazingly, for the first time in history they have no fear of their traditional predators, just supposedly righteous millennial God-ordained priests coming for them with sharp knives.

This supposed perfect new millennial earth is so corrupt by the end of the millennium that it has to be replaced again (Rev 20:11)!!!

 

[TedT]

Now we know that Satan is well read in the Bible, he knows the scriptures as well as anyone.

We should consider the bit in Rev 11 about the two witnesses whose Godly miracles include the power to shut the sky so that no rain will fall during the days of their prophecy, and power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish...

I can see the great furor of the satanic against these two witnesses as being evil as proven by the great suffering they cause. I also suspect that great miracles of science will be done by the satanic against these miracles of GOD to further the belief in a non-Christian saviour.

Whether the metaphor is two things not people talked about as if people or two people talked about as not people doesn't matter to me, I'm looking forward to this...

 

[parousia70]

Polar opposites is a false dichotomy. There is no reason for inconsistency between what the Apostle John wrote in Revelation, describing the eternal state of the new heavens and new earth, and what the prophet Isaiah wrote many years earlier in the Old Testament. All one needs to do is have insight described by Dr. John Martin wrote above in the Bible Knowledge Commentary I cite above to understand that Isaiah and John's prophecies are about the exact same thing. Isaiah's order is just not linear in chronological time, but that doesn't mean there is some disagreement between Isaiah and the Apostle John's prophecies.

Beyond that, it is pretty simple to understand that in the eternal state, there is no death. Eternal actually means eternal.

No more death is a present reality in Christ.

1. John 11:26
   And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I Believe it.
Do you?

We aren’t still waiting for that.

Unless you believe a day is coming where even the unrepentant will share in Christ’s victory over sin and death?

I’d be curious to know where that is taught in scripture.

 

[parousia70]

Isaiah 65 certainly cannot be referring to A.D 70...here is just one reason why:

Verse 25" 'The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox,"

Has anyone noticed any wolves eating grass since A.D 70? I think i can safely say i live around 2000 years after this event and lions still very much eat prey animals (such as lambs)!

Right. Because wolves and lambs are NEVER used as a metaphor in scripture....

 

[Aldebaran]

Right. Because wolves and lambs are NEVER used as a metaphor in scripture....

If taken as metaphors in this case, what is being signified in verse 25?

 

[parousia70]

If taken as metaphors in this case, what is being signified in verse 25?

Same thing as Isaiah 11:6-9, which says the "lion" and "wolf" and the "snake" won't hurt and destroy on God's holy mountain (Mt. Zion), is speaking of the end of divinely decreed wars against Jerusalem from the jews' national enemies. Note that when Nebuchadnezzer attacks Israel in the 500s BC, he is called "A lion coming up from his thicket to make the land desolate" (Jer 4:5-7). The Babylonian conquest is described as follows: "a lion out of the forest shall slay them, and a wolf of the evenings shall spoil them, a leopard shall watch over their cities" (Jeremiah 5:6). The wild, dangerous animals are metaphors for the natural enemies of the Hebrew tribes during wartime.

 

[DavidPT]

Right. Because wolves and lambs are NEVER used as a metaphor in scripture....

Is your position that Isaiah 65 and the new heavens and new earth are something that is already here, and not something waiting to take place in the future instead? If the former, I have some follow up questions I need to ask you, in regards to your comment about applying it as a metaphor rather than applying it in a literal sense. If the latter, something still waiting to take place in the future, there is nothing else I need to ask you about, in that case.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Isaiah 19.

I take that you could not offer a good biblical definition for "clouds of heaven" and "heaven in a cloud"...as I thought. It seems that you did not really compare Scripture with Scripture, rather you were trying to compare the event with the event without really understand what cloud signifies.

My turn if anyone interested to know.

Rev 11:11-12
(11) And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
(12) And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

This Great voice from heaven is the Word of God. There is only one voice from Heaven who can call man to leave the streets of the great city Jerusalem (spiritually the unfaithful and corporate Church), and that is the call of the Great King Himself.

These True Witnesses are called from death and stand in these streets of Jerusalem and ascend to Heaven. Pay attention to this. God is not talking about physical heaven here. Rather the heaven in Revelation is often a representation of the Kingdom of Heaven, or the place of God, and the Spirit of life is the Holy Spirit. It is by the Spirit that they are called to ascend out of this death in these wicked streets and go up to the spiritual Kingdom of the great Zion. Again the representation of the Kingdom of heaven. These witnesses are those who are blessed and who have the Spirit to not just verbally hear the Word but to spiritually hear. Others in the city do not have the ears to hear the Word spiritually. The witnesses are those not only called, but chosen, and they will flee out of the midst of the city which has become a desert.

Psa 11:1-4
(1) To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. In the LORD put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain?
(2) For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart.
(3) If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?
(4) The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

The Lord's throne is in Heaven, Jerusalem (congregation) lies in abomination, its foundations destroyed, and the righteous must flee to where God is...outside the city. Symbolically heaven, spiritually far off from this once great city. God tries or tests the children of men, for this is a time of trial, and He that shall remain faithful and abhor the sin in the City that He ascends out to the Kingdom, are those who have root in Christ.

We should note this ascending to the Kingdom is not preceded by the sound of a trumpet. There are many who surmise that this verse refers to the rapture, but from careful study and diligent consideration of all the text, I cannot conclude that this is the case. This is also verified as we read in verse thirteen that at that same hour the city fell, and there were slain of men 7000. But when the rapture occurs, it is the end of the world, and is the 'final' judgment. Not 70AD nor "PreTrib". It is not a time when believers are still upon earth giving God glory. They will have been raised up together with Him. I think it would be inconsistent to read these passages as the rapture narrative. This does not appear to be in agreement with the whole of scripture concerning the rapture. On top of this, we see 'clearly' in verse fifteen that the seventh angel sounds the seventh trumpet, and we 'know' that this is the last trump of God, and the Biblically justified time of the rapture. Not before. This being 'caught up' (Raptured) occurs at this last trumpet, not prior to that when the witnesses are called to symbolically ascend from the streets of this symbolic city (the Church) to heaven (the Kingdom). The city is not literal, these are not two literal two men, the fire from their mouths is not literal, the street where they lay is not literal, their death is not literal, why then would we conclude their resurrection from their symbolic death, is literal? It makes no sense. In order to have a literal resurrection, we need a literal death. Likewise, in order to have a spiritual resurrection, we need a spiritual death. Interpretations must be consistent, not disjointed.

The language of the spirit of life entering into the dead witnesses is part of this symbolism. Remember, the witnesses are not physically in them that they understand that they must leave the unfaithful Church. Heaven here (as in revelation chapter twelve) is symbolic of the Kingdom of Heaven, which is no longer found represented in these Churches, as they have been moved out of their place (Revelation 2:5). In the Spirit we ascend to heaven as we have God's spirit in truth revealed to us. Look at the similar language when John (by the Spirit) was shown this revelation:

Rev 4:1
(1) After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

You see, almost identical language of God talking with him from Heaven with a great voice (as if a trumpet) saying come up hither. This is God revealing prophecy to John, not John literally going into heaven. In the Spirit only he went to Heaven as God reveals things to him. John is flesh and blood, and flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of heaven. Neither can man leave his body and literally go to heaven and then come back to earth into his earthly body (John 3:13). No man can. But 'in the Spirit' God revealed things, while he was still a man on earth. He was never raptured nor literally in heaven, this language simply means he was spiritually in the kingdom of heaven for revelation. Same thing with God's Elect (Two Witnesses), Selah!

We often think when we see the word "heaven" in Revelation that it is always talking about literal heaven, but that is not the case. The book of Revelation is a 'symbolic' book, and thus we should expect symbolism. For example, clearly Revelation chapter twelve speaking of the stars of heaven being knocked down, or in other chapters a star falling from heaven and making the water wormwood, or a pregnant woman sitting in heaven along with these stars on her head. This is not talking about literal stars -- gaseous balls of fire, nor literal heaven. It's a symbolic picture of the kingdom of heaven and those who are of that kingdom. Just as we can read in Revelation chapter one God reveals the mystery or secret of the symbolism saying the stars that God had in his hand were really the messengers of the Churches, and the candlestick represented the Churches. These stars weren't literally stars of Heaven, they were messengers of the Church, which were represented by stars of heaven.

Heaven is not always literal in the book of Revelation, it is symbolic in many cases. And that is how I believe heaven is represented here. At this time the witnesses to truth will rise up from their 'spiritual death' by the great voice from heaven, and flee from the abomination in these now dead churches. That is what the Word of God by the Spirit tells us (2nd Corinthians 6:16-17) to do in such cases. We are told to come out of a Temple (corporate congregation) that is no longer of God because the two kings of these diverse kingdoms have no agreement together. We are not to stay there. Matthew chapter twenty-four says the same thing with different symbolism.

(Continues to next post)

 

[TribulationSigns]

(Continues from previous post)

Mat 24:15-16
(15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
(16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

That verse is telling the true witnesses of Christ that when they "see" the abomination stand in the Churches (the only Holy Place on earth besides believers, after the cross!), then they are not to stay, but flee to the Mountains. Sorry, Hammster, NOT ot the literal mountains of Israel in the Middle East, as if they could be any security or safety. Not an alleged Holy place in a literal Temple in Jerusalem 70AD (because it was no longer Holy to qualify for this prophecy anyway!), but flee from the Holy Place which after the cross is the external Church. It is the only Holy place that even could become abominable. Flee to the mountains (Kingdom) of God. Not literal Heaven, not literal mountains.

Psa 133:3
(3) As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

Mic 4:1
(1) But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.


Joel 3:18
(18) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim.


These is the mountains that we are to flee to when we see abomination stand in the Holy Place. Not no mounds of dirt in the Middle East. Judaea after the cross is symbolically the Church where Jesus Christ is a chief cornerstone right now. Not a province in Israel in 70AD nor today. When that city becomes abominable, we are to flee from it to the protection of the real Kingdom of God, because the city will no longer be the representation of God's habitation. The Church is fallen. She has become a harlot, Revelation 18:2. And this is what the language of the voice from Heaven calling the witnesses who were dead in the street, symbolizes. They are called to come out of Jerusalem and ascend to the Kingdom of heaven.

Revelation chapter eighteen also illustrates the calling of God's servants out of an abominable City which shall fall as babylon.


Rev 18:4-5
(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.


And they stood afar off WHERE God is. Where the cloud of heaven is! Because His congregation had turned to lawlessness, so that spiritually it was as babylon the great. This is the spiritual condition of the Church as I can see today! This is the reason the witnesses come out. Because God is going to bring Judgement upon His unfaithful congregation all over the world, and He doesn't want His witnesses there that they may be partaker with them in sin, or receive of this city's plagues. For that City is under wrath of God. We saw what happened to Jersualem in Old Testament as an example for the New!

Jer 23:14
(14) I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.


Again, this is why the witnesses are called out. No they were not literally killed and so they were not literally raised up from that non-literal death, nor do they go into 'literal' heaven as yet. For now, they are called to life to remove themselves from these streets where they laid, and go to the only place where they will be secure. To the mountains of God, to the spiritual heavens.

Isa 52:7
(7) How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

The true believers 'stand upon their feet' and by the Word of God come up to this mountain retreat that their feet will stand on a firm foundation of Truth. And the enemies of God beheld them as they went in a cloud. And there is no more ministering in this House after they leave, it is now destined to fall.

Now the cloud in scripture symbolizes God's Glory. For example:


Exo 40:35
(35) And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

Num 16:42
(42) And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared.

1Ki 8:11
(11) So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.

And many other such verses. See, Hammster? The cloud signifies the Glory of God. Let repeat one more time:

Clouds of Heaven = Glory of God!

This is a time of judgement upon this house when the priests will not be able to minister by reason of the Glory of God. When we read that the believers are told to come to heaven by God, and they stand up from death in the streets and go into a cloud, it's signifying that they are in the Glory of God. God is now going to make that unfaithful city desolate, and He doesn't want them there to be caught up in it. Which is again evidence that this was not talking about the rapture because if it was, then time would be no more and the end of the world/age would happen right then and there. Because God swore that at the sound of the seventh Trumpet, there would be time no more.

Rev 10:6-7
(6) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
(7) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

And so there is not any question that when the seventh angel sounds his trumpet, it is the end of time when the mystery of God is finished, and not when a tenth part of the city falls, Revelation 11:13. The rapture is when the whole world is destroyed and the judgement sits at 'last' trump (1st Corinthians 15:52). It is not this time of symbolic Church death when they cannot work. The last trumpet means exactly that. The last! For example, there will be no more trumpets sounding after the last. And it is obvious that the last trumpet hasn't sounded when these are called to remove themselves from the city and fear this mobilization. The enemies of God fear because the very foundation of their Church is shaken because of this exit, and though they do not repent of the iniquities which made this city abominable, they are troubled by this exodus of true believers just as the Judaizers troubled Paul and the Apostles. This is their fear of what is going on, and the fear of wicked men usually manifests itself in reviling, speaking evil against the saints, and in unrighteous anger.


Luk 21:25-26
(25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
(26) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Those of the sea is symbolic of the unsaved world. The Church were fishers of men from the sea (world). The sea and waves roaring illustrate the world is full of iniquity and beating against the ships (Churches). There is distress and anguish as the unsaved are in a state of quandary, confused over evil of the world. And the Church has no answers because they have forsaken the God of the Bible, and are themselves running to and fro seeking the Word, but unable to find it. The city echoing the noise of iniquity in the sea. This is the fear in the enemies of the true Church. Sounds familiar today? There is a judgment upon these people, His New Testament unfaithful congregation of God! Because this is the vengeance of the lord ushering in the coming of that which is perfect or complete.

Luk 21:22
(22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

It's the days of vengeance and the completion of all that was written. It is a time of God's judgment upon them for killing (silence) the testimony of His faithful and True Saints, for spiritually shedding blood by their hatred. When the believers leave the Church their works leave with them, and there is nothing of the waters of life left in the Church. All you see is a false doctrine that comes out of flase prophets and Christs in the congregation right now to deceive many to believe their lies. This is part of God's judgment upon her. They shall drink wormwood. There is no candle or lamp burning, as they are left in darkness. This city shall be left desolate. The unfaithful New Testament congregation is being judged RIGHT NOW before Christ return to judge the rest of the world. The judgment must come upon God's house first, remember?

Just as Jerusalem of the Old Testament fell, so Jerusalem of the New Testament is under the SAME JUDGMENT for her spiritual fornication and abominations.

 

[parousia70]

Is your position that Isaiah 65 and the new heavens and new earth are something that is already here, and not something waiting to take place in the future instead? If the former, I have some follow up questions I need to ask you, in regards to your comment about applying it as a metaphor rather than applying it in a literal sense. If the latter, something still waiting to take place in the future, there is nothing else I need to ask you about, in that case.

I concur with:
C.H. Spurgeon On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354)

The hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone. The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

We are to understand it as it was used by the OT prophets, Jesus and the writer of Hebrews in the Context of God's Judgment Comings. We can see that Jesus' didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom, which all can agree is a present fulfilled reality that we aren’t still waiting for.