How many seals have been opened?

[icedtea]

But there has been some red heifers born. A sacrifice must be a red heifer with no white hairs.

 

[inhisdebt]

I know that, but what I'm saying is that everyone seems to "know" so much.... so my question is how can they "calculate" when it's gonna happen...
I dunno, maybe it's just too late n I have to get some sleep...

negative!!! it will be impossible to calculate when it (the day of the lord )will hapen unless you happen to know exactly when the two witnesses arrive in jerusalem wich is unlikely to make any news services untill way to late to calculate. And the gospels indecate that not even the angels know the when of these end time events.

 

[inhisdebt]

To those cocerned with wether or not a temple is needed for the end times to be fullfilled, while i do not personally believe that it is needed to fulfil prophacy. the Jews are currenly in the process of reconfiguring the sanhedrian and have been in the process of recreating the artifacts used in there old testiment animal sacrifice ways, the priests robe is complete. the biggest thing standing in there way is the dome of the rock (muslem holy site) standing in the temples place, the removal of wich will undoubtedly start ww3.
And it is important to note that many of the old testiment locations to be destroyed by God on the day of the lord are currently in your headline news as they are the Gaza strip, and the west bank in UN territory according to the maps but muslem territories controlled by the jews in reality. To put things bluntly the podwer keg is set and the match is lit!!!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

To those cocerned with wether or not a temple is needed for the end times to be fullfilled, while i do not personally believe that it is needed to fulfil prophacy.

Of course one has to be there!!!!!

Matt 23:38 "See! Your House is left to you a Wilderness;

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing!!!!! and Measure Ye!!!!! the Sanctuary/Temple of the God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it/him ! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within[#2081] the Sanctuary/Temple [#3485] be Casting Out!!!!! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

 

[icedtea]

Could be an earthquake. Keep looking up!

 

[inhisdebt]

Of course one has to be there!!!!!

As to mathew there house has already been left to them desolate, the same temple that Jesus pointed to and told them there would be no stones left one on top another was destroyed in 70ad.
as to your next referance in rev there is room to question as to when, (many simular referances are made to the mesuring of a temple see ezekial,danial) or what that temple is measured, we as christians are the temple of the living God and the Body of Christ. Not to mention the fact that though the dome of the rock was set up by the muslums. allah by definition is the only word in there dictionary for the one true God. And it is sitting exactly where the last temple was placed. Im not saying there wont be another temple i am just not going to say there has to be one.

 

[lecoop]

This is the typical linier understanding of rev that really does not make sense. How do you explain that during the 7th trump in rev 11 Gods kingdom is established on earth and then in rev 12 saten is cast to earth to establish his reighn on earth. its simple you cant!!! the seals and trumps are given to show the timeline from the crucifiction to the day of the lord and then the perspective changes in rev 12 and startes over again 3 1/2 years previose to the day of the lord. Keep in mind that all the scripture must fit to be a true understanding of scripture, and the old testiment has far more info on these events than the new testiment does. Rev was given to fill in the blanks not as a stand alone study of the end times. And the resurection of the two witness ties it with the last trump resurection of the dead. All 7trumps are released with the 7th seal that they are a part of. the 7 vials are not a part of the series and are not tied two any timeline in rev, they are a reiteration of the 7 trumps with another viewpoint, note that all the trumps and vials are targeted to the same places in the same order. And a seal is a restraint. Note that all 7 seals were on the same scroll. the seals were placed back in ezekials time. and opened at the cross. Also note that these events are to come on us as a woman in trevail, that means that they will build together adding one on top of the other till the 7th seal that all takes place at the same time on the day of the lord.

...during the 7th trump in rev 11 Gods kingdom is established on earth and then in rev 12 saten is cast to earth to establish his reighn on earth.

It makes perfect sense linearally and that is the only way it makes sense. You are not reading very carefully what exactly happens at the 7th trumpet. Since Adam fell, Satan has been "God of this world." How? Because Adam had this possition, and gave it away. But apparently Adam's lease was for 6000 years, IF someone could be found worthy to open the seals. Well, someone was found worthy, and the seals were opened, starting all the events that would lead to the change in rulership of planet earth. That rulership changes at the sounding of the 7th trump. However, the scroll has more that just the 7 trumpets written in it. It also has written the 7 vials. Just because the rulership changes, God is not going to override what has been written for millenia. What does happen is that Jesus takes back to Himself His great power. Go read it.

Why does he do that? Because He had given it to the church, and they no longer had need of it, being now in heaven. So Jesus takes back His great power, and what happens? The vials are poured out.

So yes, Jesus is the new ruler of planet earth, in Rev chapter 11, but He is not to take physical possession until chapter 19. And again I will agree, as soon as Jesus becomes the ruler (from heaven) Satan is cast down with fierce anger, and we then have the time of greatest tribulation ever. Yes, this goes on after Jesus has become the God of the planet. We then see Satan's wrath being poured out, and God's wrath coming as a result of what the antichrist is doing: both happening at the same time.

There are no conflicts here when you understand what is happening. Please show me any scripture that would make this understanding impossible.

The seven vials are shown in the last half of the week, starting after the Abomination (AOD). The trumpets are blown in the first half of the week, before the AOD. The sixth seal has not been broken yet, as that will cause the world's worst earthquake to date, which will litterally shake the whole world. Of course that has not happened. The vials are not in any way the same events as the trumpets, from a different standpoint, for they take place 3 1/2 years apart. All seven seals are broken before any of the trumpets, just as God showed to John. The trumpets serve as warnings, being (some of them) 1/3 destruction, while the vials go all out, and are total destruction.

When does the day of the Lord (DOL) officially start? I think it starts with the 6th or the 7th seal, which is also when the 70th week starts. God's wrath is starting at the same time. I believe we see His wrath in an earthquake that shakes the entire world. Therefore, there is no need to rearrange the book! God gave this book as a "revelation," not to confuse. Why would He show events all jumbled up in time?

Coop

 

[lecoop]

You are making my head hurt with all this twisting of the great book of Revelation. Therefore, I will list some clues so that you can better understand what you are writing about.

Beginner's axiums for Revelation:



HeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHeeeeeeeeeeeeee thanks for the lesson in Rev, however it was not necessary. Didn't know you had all rights to Rev.

Anyone has a right to study until they are approved!

1) No trumpet can be sounded until all the seals are opened.

Where does the scriptures say that?

That is what it says! The first trumpet is sounded right after the last seal is broken. And if you picture a scroll tightly rolled up, with seven seals along the edge, you cannot get it open to see what is inside (the trumpets) until the last seal is broken. There are many linear type words used, such as "then" and "next." Finally, an understanding of the 70th week laid out clearly in Revelation, with the start at the 7th seal, the midpoint at the 7th trumpet, and the ending at the 7th vial, shows a chronological timing of the book.

No vial can be poured out until all the trumpets are sounded.

That is just your openion, and you know how much I value your openion? I value it enough to let it go in one ear and out the other.

It is you choice to rearrange the book. However, God showed the visions to John in this order. Why then, do you feel you have to rearrange them? Was God attempting to confuse us, or reveal to us? Not only that, but the trumpets are before the exact midpoint of the week, and the trumpets come after that midpoint. Therefore, they cannot in any way be thought of as the same events from a different point of view. May I suggest that your next move should be to settle once and for all, where is the exact midpoint of the week, as shown to John. (Hint: look for mentions of 1260 days, or 42 months, etc.)

First he seals, then the trumpets, then the vials are completed in that order, in the same order that God showed John.

Is that a fact?

It is! : -)) Why would God want to confuse us in a book named Revelation? It's purpose is to reveal!

The "time of introduction" principle. God shows the vision to John in the exact order that it will happen when it happens. John is introduced to the Beast in Chapter 13. This means that we will not see the beast (antichrist) in the previous chapters. He is revealed to John in Chapter 13, because that is when he will show up, just after the midpoint (the 7th trumpet).

I gues you failed to read Rev. 10:7

Rev 10:7 is a preview or prophecy of what will happen when the 7th trumpet will sound. It did not sound then in the vision, but will soon after (next chapter.) There are several examples of "previews." and we have to understand them for what they are. This one should be easy to understand as a "preview." Notice the wording: "when he shall begin to sound..." In other words, he has not yet begun, but this will happen in the future.

We see the two witnesses introduced to John Just before the midpoint, because that is when they will show up on planet earth, when they do come.

You young whimper snappers tickle me; you come in here thinking you know it all. Going to some seminary more than apt, to learn to be a professional pastor. Not even knowing or caring who the real God ordained pastors are.

I am neither young nor a whimper snapper, nor a pastor; neither have I been to any seminary! However, God did bless me with the ability to read, AND to receive revelation knowledge of the word, from heaven. Perhaps, if you disagree, you can explain why God introduced them to John it that exact spot? IF you study it carefully, you see that you could put those verses about the two witnesses between almost any two other verses in the book, and they would seem to fit. So I ask again, why here? And why, when John writes most of the book as past tense, does he keep to future tense here? Do you just read over these things, or do you question why?

they shall prophesy
if any man will hurt them
when they shall have finished
their dead bodies shall lie

Compare to

16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Jesus on the white horse is shown to John in Chapter 19, because that is when it will happen in real life: after the vials are all poured out, and LONG after the 7th trumpet is sounded.

Just because Paul mentions the last trump does not mean that it has to be this trump in Revelation. If you read closely, it seems that there is a sounding of a trumpet when Jesus leaves heaven, and then another sounding of the trump, when the dead are raised. Therefore, it is the last trump in this series. (this is just one possibility.)

You got that right, one possibility. We won’t the true facts, not possibilities.
It happens at the 7th trumpet in Rev. If you won't to know the order of advents, take them from Jesus own words in Matt. 24.
If you won't to learn God's word and ways, do the same as Moses and Paul. Both of which had the best education that was obtainable in their time. Do you know what they did? May the Grace and Peace of God be with you.

Again, I think you are mistaken. Why do you think that Paul's last trump has anything to do with the seventh trump? I think you are just making a wild guess. '

I believe that John's chronology follows Jesus' perfectly, and it should, as both came from the HS.


Any, this is how I read it. If you think Jesus chronology differs, please show us.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

I don't see a rebuilding of the temple at any time. Jesus came to end animal sacrifices, and there's no way He would allow it again.

That view (that the temple must be rebuilt) is based on a mistranslation of Daniel. Temple worship is actually taken away in the first half of Daniel's 70th week.
It corresponds in the Revelation to the 1260 years of trampling the Holy Spot by "Gentile" nations (or Muslims).

Yet John is told to measure the temple. Now, was he to measure the temple that existed then, 95 AD? of course not, because there wasn't one! No, John was seeing a vision of end times, and at that point in the vision, they were approaching the midpoint of the 70th week. So there must be a temple and sacrifice going on at that point in the 70th week.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Of course you are correct. Perhaps we need to warn the jews not to build it!!! But if they are destined for the Wrath, not much we can do I guess. Sigh.

1 Thessalonians 2:16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up [the measure of] their sins; but the wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing!!!!! and Measure Ye!!!!! the Sanctuary/Temple of the God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it/him ! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within[#2081] the Sanctuary/Temple [#3485] be Casting Out!!!!! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

Matt 23:38 "See! Your House is left to you a Wilderness;

Lamentations 2:1 How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He cast down from heaven to the earth The beauty of Israel, And did not remember His footstool In the day of His anger.

Good post! Finally we agree!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

The Jews do not accept and worship the beast of ch. 13. Six million Jews were killed by Hitler's Third Reich (or 3rd 6 of the 6-6-6 trilogy). But 144,000 young men escaped the gas schambers and made it to Israel.

Israel has no plans to rebuild the temple. Jesus came to bring an end to animal sacrifices.

Sorry, but the terrible earthquake of seal # 6 has not even happened yet, so all these things are still in our future. The 70th week is still future.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

So is there any firm opinion of whether the temple HAS to built FIRST before ANYTHING can happen at all.

John is told to go and measure the temple. He is told this very near to the midpoint of the 70th week, in the vision. That mean near the time of the abomination spoken of by Daniel and then Jesus. Therefore, the temple MUST be built between now and then. The Jews are working very hard on the temple now. They are preparing the robes, finding and preparing priests, they have already created a replica of the arc of the covenant. I saw it on tv, being carried by several priests. It is very beautiful! And they are preparing the red heifers too. The temple will be built soon.

The jews haven't even selected a High Priest or other priests to worship in it or sit in it that I know of. Can't Bible scholars at least agree on that? Thanks.

I disagree. Now that they have the DNA of the priestly line, they are finding priests and training them. This is going on NOW!

Matt 23:38 "See! Your House is left to you a Wilderness;

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing!!!!! and Measure Ye!!!!! the Sanctuary/Temple of the God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it/him ! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within[#2081] the Sanctuary/Temple [#3485] be Casting Out!!!!! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

How could JOhn be told to measure a nonexistant temple? Never! It will be built soon.

Lamentations 2:1 How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He cast down from heaven to the earth The beauty of Israel, And did not remember His footstool In the day of His anger.

All I can say is, we are much closer than we were a few years ago.

I have a friend that at that time owned a ranch in New Mexico. He also had one of the few herds of Red Angus cattle. Some Jews came to his ranch to inspect them, and to buy some of them.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

negative!!! it will be impossible to calculate when it (the day of the lord )will hapen unless you happen to know exactly when the two witnesses arrive in jerusalem wich is unlikely to make any news services untill way to late to calculate. And the gospels indecate that not even the angels know the when of these end time events.

Finally, inhisdebt, we can (almost) agree! However, when we see (if we are here to see it) the great earthquake that shakes the whole world at the 6th seal, then we will know that the 70th week is about to start.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Of course one has to be there!!!!!

As to mathew there house has already been left to them desolate, the same temple that Jesus pointed to and told them there would be no stones left one on top another was destroyed in 70ad.
as to your next referance in rev there is room to question as to when, (many simular referances are made to the mesuring of a temple see ezekial,danial) or what that temple is measured, we as christians are the temple of the living God and the Body of Christ. Not to mention the fact that though the dome of the rock was set up by the muslums. allah by definition is the only word in there dictionary for the one true God. And it is sitting exactly where the last temple was placed. Im not saying there wont be another temple i am just not going to say there has to be one.

I'll say it too: there has to be a temple built, so that it will be there at the midpoint of the week for John to measure! he cannot measure a figurtive temple.

Coop

 

[visionary]

On the seven seal the mystery of God should be finished... do you feel that is true? I think that we are not there yet... there is still mysteries as to who are the main characters of the last act of earth's history.

 

[icedtea]

Good point.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

On the seven seal the mystery of God should be finished... do you feel that is true? I think that we are not there yet... there is still mysteries as to who are the main characters of the last act of earth's history.

Is the mystery our resurrection or God dwelling in His people and not in a temple?

(Young) Romans 16:25 And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret/mystery, in the times of the ages having been kept silent,

Reve 10:7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

 

[visionary]

Is the mystery our resurrection or God dwelling in His people and not in a temple?

(Young) Romans 16:25 And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret/mystery, in the times of the ages having been kept silent,

Reve 10:7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

While the myster of the first century was the ressurrection, it is no mystery to us today. While it was a mystery in the first century about God dwelling within His people, it is not a mystery to us. The the mystery of God would be finished.... which is something John did not get to see in 90 AD yet was taken in vision into the courts of heaven. The Book was still sealed at that time, so like Daniel was not priviledged to see or understand the final mysteries.

 

[MbiaJc]

While the myster of the first century was the ressurrection, it is no mystery to us today. While it was a mystery in the first century about God dwelling within His people, it is not a mystery to us. The the mystery of God would be finished.... which is something John did not get to see in 90 AD yet was taken in vision into the courts of heaven. The Book was still sealed at that time, so like Daniel was not priviledged to see or understand the final mysteries.

Hi my brother visionary:

Do you think we see, and understand the mysteries today?

 

[visionary]

Hi my brother visionary:

Do you think we see, and understand the mysteries today?

Sister to you... and we have not even begun to see the kingdom of God, let alone any of its mysteries... we have glimmer still as if looking through a mirror darkly but one day we will see not as children but mature believers in the fullness of the day.