How many point Calvinist?

[BT]

Thanks brother! I was not attempting to be arrogant, forgive me if I offended you in any way.

And, I am an ordained minister of the gospel, study is a big part of my life.
With that said: All I was trying to say is the condition of man in total is a driving factor in our understanding of spirtual matters. Same is true for the nature of God, we know some of it, in fact we know all we need to know to come to salvation.

Again, I will try a different way. What I discovered in my studies over the many years (from age 14 to 56) is that I was losing track of the nature of sin. I think Calvin brings us to deal with it in good ways. I'll stop there, I do not intend to debate this.

Blessings to you
Mike

Yeah no sweat Mike. I'm not offended. I think that Calvin came up with some really sound principles. And some would argue that Calvin wouldn't recognize "calvinism" as is today. Really that is a moot point though. Keep on studying bro. "It is not meet that we should be setting tables, but we will devote ourselves to study and prayer and preaching" (paraphrase with stuff added).

No debate here. I don't see calvinism as a point of breaking off fellowship, personally..

 

[BT]

All 5, plus two more.

6) Double Predestination (Ephesians 1:5-6; Acts 13:48; Revelation 17:8), so also he decides whom He will not save without regard to any distinctives in the individual (John 10:26; 12:37-40; Romans 9:11-18; 1 Peter 2:7-8).

7) God Governs the course of history. Meaning if we look at the whole course of history, from creation to redemption to eternity and beyond, and see the entirety of God's plan.

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/theological_qa/calvinism/seven_points.html

Hey! Finally an honest answer. If I were a calvinist I would have to agree to these two points as well. We may not agree on this SP but I appreciate your honesty and the length to which you're willing to go, (I know a lot of calvinists who would deny point 6 above)...

 

[AndOne]

So for no apparent reason we are going to heaven (because we surely did not deserve to be picked, and surely did nothing to get picked), and likewise they for no apparent reason are going to hell (because they surely did not deserve to be picked, and surely were not picked).

No apparent reason to us - but what is above our understanding is certainly not above God's...

I'm a Full five pointer as well as a 6 and 7 pointer as presented by Street Preacer. Nothing else makes sense...

 

[BT]

No apparent reason to us - but what is above our understanding is certainly not above God's...

I'm a Full five pointer as well as a 6 and 7 pointer as presented by Street Preacer. Nothing else makes sense...

Nothing else may make sense to you. However there are some on the other side of the coin who could argue (and have for a thousand years or so) that what you believe doesn't make sense. It's not an argument that I ever expect to see the end of in this life.. but like I said, I don't make it a point of fellowship. So believe what you like IMO.

 

[JM]

It seems everyone wants freewill but will not give any to God!

 

[ksen]

But I thought, in the calvinist scheme of things, faith was not something we ourselves were even capable of, but that even our faith is a gift from God. Are you suggesting God was holding out on 'you'?

God could only have been "holding out" on us if He owed us something and then didn't give it.

 

[Jeffrey A]

It seems everyone wants freewill but will not give any to God!

Are you suggesting we, in and of ourselves, have the free will to choose to give God the credit for having given us what we do not have within ourselves to give, the free will to choose God, rather than giving God the credit for having given us the very faith to believe that it was God himself who gave us the faith that he himself gave us to begin with?

 

[Jeffrey A]

God could only have been "holding out" on us if He owed us something and then didn't give it.

The original post I replied to was lamenting that we do not "give God all the credit." I asked, "the credit for what were you holding back from God?" The answer was, "faith, for one." So I asked, "But isn't even faith to believe a gift of God? Was God holding back from you" the gift of faith to believe that even faith is a gift from God?

So now you answer that God doesn't owe us that faith.

So why should we lament the fact that we don't have it? Nothing we can do about it. If he chooses to give us the faith to believe that faith is a gift from God, then he will; if he chooses not to give us the faith to believe that faith is a gift of God, then he owes us nothing.

To cry over a gift not given, that isn't even owed to us, is to question the very sovereignty of God in his choices.

I will not question God. If he has chosen to leave me in the state of lack of faith that God has given me the gift of my very faith to believe in him, then I for one will not question God's choices. For he is Sovereign. Do Calvinist's question God's choices in this regard?

Certainly you don't believe that faith to believe the more mature understandings of the things of God is left up to man's own free will?

 

[eldermike]

So I asked, "But isn't even faith to believe a gift of God? Was God holding back from you" the gift of faith to believe that even faith is a gift from God?

No, it works like this: Faith is a gift, life is a gift. I can waste my life, but it's no less a gift. I can waste my faith the same way.

Sure faith is a gift, if not then how did man create it?

 

[JM]

This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[Jeffrey A]

No, it works like this: Faith is a gift, life is a gift. I can waste my life, but it's no less a gift. I can waste my faith the same way.

You have the "free will" to decide for yourself whether you are going to "waste" the gifts God gave you? What happened to "perseverance of the saints"? Doesn't that teach that a person who has been chosen, given the gift of faith, WILL INVARIABLY "persevere" -- remain in, grow in, mature -- in that faith? How then can one "waste (his) faith"? How is that even possible? Doesn't that faith come by God's grace? Isn't that grace "irresistable"? How then can one resist that grace so as to choose to "waste" the faith that comes by it?

Sure faith is a gift, if not then how did man create it?

Is "faith" a 'material thing' that it can be "create(d)" and 'destroyed' like a tree? Or is faith simply a matter of "believing" someone? If I say, "I'm going to give you a new car next Tuesday", you can either "believe" me, or not "believe" me. That is how it is described when God told Abraham in his old age, "one who shall come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir." "And Abraham believed God" Romans 4:3 says about the exchange, and "it" -- Abraham's faith, believing that he would have a son from his own body in his old age -- "was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Doesn't Paul say our faith is exactly like Abraham's? Simply believing the promises of God?

 

[eldermike]

Is "faith" a 'material thing' that it can be "create(d)" and 'destroyed' like a tree?

If not then it's something superior to have, is it not? So if you have it you are better than someone who does not have it? Or is there some other attribute in us that makes us better, superior, smarter perhaps, help me here.

Growth and eternal security are not connected to each other, so I can't address your first statement, other than to say whay i just said.

 

[ksen]

Why even bother with faith. To the calvinist God withholds love from "some" folks, not to the calvinist of course.. because God has picked them really special like, out of all the millions of people that He predestined for hell. Which I suppose is cool if you're a calvinist 'cause you can walk around knowing that God loves you (yet hates your neighbour possibly, apparently), and that you're special above all the rest of the folks.

I've seen a lot of gross mischaracterizations of Calvinism, but this has to be one of the best.

You will find no Calvinist that agrees with how you've portrayed us above. Not every Calvinist is saved, just as not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is saved. The label does not save. If a person has put their faith in Jesus Christ, they are saved.

And the "humility" cracks me up.., "Brother, I don't know why God picked me for heaven. I'm not special, I'm not important. I'm just going to heaven for no apparent reason while a whole wagon-load of my family and "friends" are going to hell... also for no apparent reason."

Calvinism does not teach that people go to Hell for no good reason. The good reason people go to Hell is their sin. And the Calvinist will never tell you that the Elect have been chosen for "no good reason", unless you want to call the good pleasure of God's will "no good reason."

 

[Jeffrey A]

This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

...in answer to the question, "what shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Which was in response to Jesus' original statement, "do not work for the food which perishes, but [work] for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you..."

"Work... for the food which endures to eternal life, which (I) shall give to you..." "What shall we do, that we may work (these) works of God?" "This is the work of God (that you may do):... BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent."

(There should be a law that no one be allowed to quote John 6:29 without including verses 27 and 28.)

 

[BT]

No, it works like this: Faith is a gift, life is a gift. I can waste my life, but it's no less a gift. I can waste my faith the same way.

Sure faith is a gift, if not then how did man create it?

If faith is a gift, to whom is it given? And is it given exclusively to some and not others?

All men have faith. Every single person in the world has (a measure) of faith, and there are different kinds of faith... I have faith that I'll wake up tomorrow, I have faith that the seatbelt will protect me, I have faith that the plane won't go down etc.. The difference is the object of your faith (in a spiritual sense).

The gift is of salvation, faith is a gift given to all people.

Tell me Mike, how did men create conscience, how did men create love, how did men create hate, how did men create mercy, how did men create thought (you know the unsaved all exhibit these things... and so they must've invented them if they are not gifts from God, and if they are gifts from God then why in the world do these non-elect have 'em?). If you want to make abstract statements shouldn't they at least fit other angles of abstract thought? No one is saying that faith is man-made. Faith is ingrained. The difference is that the calvinist would (perhaps) say that only the "elect" have faith (which btw is an anti-biblical claim, not un or extra..). And so the rest of the folks walking around who are not "elect" have no faith.. because God withheld it from them for some reason.

 

[BT]

I've seen a lot of gross mischaracterizations of Calvinism, but this has to be one of the best.

Hey ksen I guess you don't know many calvinists.. Look a couple pages back and you'll see double predestination.

You will find no Calvinist that agrees with how you've portrayed us above. Not every Calvinist is saved, just as not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is saved. The label does not save. If a person has put their faith in Jesus Christ, they are saved.

That's a false statement.

A person can not put their faith in Jesus Christ unless they are of the elect. This is the hub of calvinism. Mabey you aren't one after all.

Calvinism does not teach that people go to Hell for no good reason. The good reason people go to Hell is their sin. And the Calvinist will never tell you that the Elect have been chosen for "no good reason", unless you want to call the good pleasure of God's will "no good reason."

Let me try and type it in a different way because you obviously
a) Didn't read it
b) Don't understand

If there are two groups of people in creation. The elect who God has chosen to be saved, and for whom exclusively He sent his Son. And the non-elect, the rest of humanity, who are just as bad (perhaps in some cases even morally better) as the "elect" and for whom God did not send his Son.

Now these two groups are equal at least in sin (prior to the elect's regeneration). However only the elect (who have done nothing "better" or more deserving than the non-elect, how have done nothing different that the non-elect) get saved. Why?

Answer that question ksen. Tell me why only some are granted eternal life, tell me what they did better than the other ones. Tell me that they deserve it more (which calvinists would say they do not). You can't. Therefore it is for no apparent reason besides God's choice.

So you have a non-elect baby let's say, who is predestined to go to hell directly from the womb. This child has absolutely no chance. The child has (so far) done nothing, offended no one, has only inherited a sin nature that is common to all men. So from the womb this creation is damned to ETERNAL HELL... because God didn't pick him...

give me a break.

 

[ksen]

If faith is a gift, to whom is it given? And is it given exclusively to some and not others?

All men have faith. Every single person in the world has (a measure) of faith, and there are different kinds of faith... I have faith that I'll wake up tomorrow, I have faith that the seatbelt will protect me, I have faith that the plane won't go down etc.. The difference is the object of your faith (in a spiritual sense).

The gift is of salvation, faith is a gift given to all people.

I think you need to differentiate between saving faith and other kinds of faith.

Tell me Mike, how did men create conscience, how did men create love, how did men create hate, how did men create mercy, how did men create thought (you know the unsaved all exhibit these things... and so they must've invented them if they are not gifts from God, and if they are gifts from God then why in the world do these non-elect have 'em?).

Why does it rain on the just and the unjust?

If you want to make abstract statements shouldn't they at least fit other angles of abstract thought? No one is saying that faith is man-made. Faith is ingrained.

Then why isn't everyone saved? Is one person just smarter about how to use this ingrained faith?

The difference is that the calvinist would (perhaps) say that only the "elect" have faith (which btw is an anti-biblical claim, not un or extra..).

Really? The statement that only the Elect have saving faith is anti-Biblical? What other group mentioned in the Bible have a saving faith?

And so the rest of the folks walking around who are not "elect" have no faith.. because God withheld it from them for some reason.

By definition only the Elect have saving faith.

 

[JM]

Mischaracterizations and misunderstandings are common, people hold to tradition over the word because they find the word harsh. Sinners in the hands of an Angery God is an execllent sermon that helps folks understand.

 

[Jeffrey A]

Regarding "faith" as NOT a 'material thing' like a tree...

If not then it's something superior to have, is it not? So if you have it you are better than someone who does not have it?

Here is part of the problem: faith is just believing what God says he will do. It is not a string of pearls, a box of chocolates, a Vermont Teddy Bear®. Do you believe God, or don't you? That is all faith is. Abraham believed God when God told him he would have a son from his own body, even in his extreme old age. Abraham believed God. That's all there is to it.

What in Sam's hill does "superior(ity)" have to do with the price of coffee? Answer: nothing.

Or is there some other attribute in us that makes us better, superior, smarter perhaps, help me here.

What you are asking, nobody here but you has even hinted, and certainly the counter argument itself, that "Abraham believed God, and [his own faith] was reckoned as righteousness", made against your argument, "even your faith is a gift of God", does not suggest or beg to ask the question you ask. That makes your question a non sequitur -- a question that simply 'does not follow' the reasoning, but simply pops-up as if out of thin air.

Growth and eternal security are not connected to each other, so I can't address your first statement, other than to say whay i just said.

Are you suggesting that "Perseverance of the Saints" is only about "eternal security"? That one can 'live like the devil' and still get to heaven? Is that your understanding of that fifth point, because I've got a bunch of quotes here from some very well-known Calvinist Fathers that would disagree with that position.

 

[ksen]

A person can not put their faith in Jesus Christ unless they are of the elect. This is the hub of calvinism. Mabey you aren't one after all.

No, trust me, I am a Calvinist. According to the Bible, Elect=Saved so Elect=faith in Christ. I don't see why you have a problem with that.

If there are two groups of people in creation. The elect who God has chosen to be saved, and for whom exclusively He sent his Son. And the non-elect, the rest of humanity, who are just as bad (perhaps in some cases even morally better) as the "elect" and for whom God did not send his Son.

With ya so far......

Now these two groups are equal at least in sin (prior to the elect's regeneration). However only the elect (who have done nothing "better" or more deserving than the non-elect, how have done nothing different that the non-elect) get saved. Why?

John 1:12-1312 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Answer that question ksen. Tell me why only some are granted eternal life, tell me what they did better than the other ones. Tell me that they deserve it more (which calvinists would say they do not). You can't. Therefore it is for no apparent reason besides God's choice.

I never argued differently. I just objected you calling God's choice "no good reason."

So you have a non-elect baby let's say, who is predestined to go to hell directly from the womb. This child has absolutely no chance. The child has (so far) done nothing, offended no one, has only inherited a sin nature that is common to all men. So from the womb this creation is damned to ETERNAL HELL... because God didn't pick him...

Unless you believe in Universalism, which I doubt you do, then you have to acknowledge that not everyone will be saved. And seeing as how you mod in the Baptist/Anabaptist forum I will also assume that you acknowledge God's perfect Omniscience of His Creation.

God, knowing who would not be saved and spend an eternity in the Lake of Fire created anyway. God created person A knowing that person A would never be saved and go to the Lake of Fire. According to your logic that person never had a chance.

Your theology is in the same predicament you are trying to put my theology in.