How many point Calvinist?

[ksen]

All five.

 

[Beoga]

I am also concerned about some extreme Calvinists who take the ideas of Calvin to apparently logical conclusions that were completely outside the scope of Calvin's original intent. Fortunately, the Calvinist-Arminian debate is moving away from the centre of Christian concerns.

do you mean extreme calvinist as in hyper calvinists or in the way norm geisler used the term in his book?

 

[eldermike]

Over my years of study I have moved from zero to five points.

I realized that what Calvin begins with is most important. We do not know who we are, nor do we understand the word "total":

Rev3:17 You say, `I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

Nor do we know the power of God :
MK 12:24 Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?

So, over time I decided to give all credit as a created being to my Creator.

I think that's what Calvin was trying to say.
Not trying to debate, just my humble opinion.

Blessings
Mike

 

[Jeffrey A]

So, over time I decided to give all credit as a created being to my Creator.

I can't imagine that all believers, even we non-calvinists, are 'not' also doing this.

For what were you 'holding back' giving credit to God before?

 

[eldermike]

For what were you 'holding back' giving credit to God before?

Faith, for one.

 

[Jeffrey A]

Faith, for one.

But I thought, in the calvinist scheme of things, faith was not something we ourselves were even capable of, but that even our faith is a gift from God. Are you suggesting God was holding out on 'you'?

 

[BT]

But I thought, in the calvinist scheme of things, faith was not something we ourselves were even capable of, but that even our faith is a gift from God. Are you suggesting God was holding out on 'you'?

Why even bother with faith. To the calvinist God withholds love from "some" folks, not to the calvinist of course.. because God has picked them really special like, out of all the millions of people that He predestined for hell. Which I suppose is cool if you're a calvinist 'cause you can walk around knowing that God loves you (yet hates your neighbour possibly, apparently), and that you're special above all the rest of the folks. And the "humility" cracks me up.., "Brother, I don't know why God picked me for heaven. I'm not special, I'm not important. I'm just going to heaven for no apparent reason while a whole wagon-load of my family and "friends" are going to hell... also for no apparent reason."

 

[BT]

Over my years of study I have moved from zero to five points.

I realized that what Calvin begins with is most important. We do not know who we are, nor do we understand the word "total":

Rev3:17 You say, `I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

Nor do we know the power of God :
MK 12:24 Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?

So, over time I decided to give all credit as a created being to my Creator.

I think that's what Calvin was trying to say.
Not trying to debate, just my humble opinion.

Blessings
Mike

Mike, you KNOW I love you. So keep studying ok. It is not a calvinist distinctive (nor is it a very humble position to claim) that "we give God all the credit" as opposed to "you folks who give yourselves the credit" (this type of statement is what has (right or wrong) dubbed (some at least) calvinists as arrogant).

Anyway bro... keep studying..

 

[BT]

OH OH OH and let's not forget

"I'm a calvinist because I believe that God is sovereign."

(which naturally implies that we non-calvinists believe that God is not sovereign...)

I LOVE that one. Yeah boys, only the calvinists think that God is sovereign... as we say in Canada.. "Sure Gord."

 

[Beoga]

Why even bother with faith. To the calvinist God withholds love from "some" folks, not to the calvinist of course.. because God has picked them really special like, out of all the millions of people that He predestined for hell. Which I suppose is cool if you're a calvinist 'cause you can walk around knowing that God loves you (yet hates your neighbour possibly, apparently), and that you're special above all the rest of the folks. And the "humility" cracks me up.., "Brother, I don't know why God picked me for heaven. I'm not special, I'm not important. I'm just going to heaven for no apparent reason while a whole wagon-load of my family and "friends" are going to hell... also for no apparent reason."

it is actually quite apparent why these people are going to hell

 

[Beoga]

But I thought, in the calvinist scheme of things, faith was not something we ourselves were even capable of, but that even our faith is a gift from God. Are you suggesting God was holding out on 'you'?

i think what he was saying was that he was holding back on giving God credit for the faith that he had, and instead gave himself credit for having faith.

 

[BT]

it is actually quite apparent why these people are going to hell

You miss the point. If they are going to hell it is because that is what God chooses. Therefore there is nothing that they even could do about it. Why are they going to hell? Because God wants them to. Why does He want them to go to hell and others to heaven? Who knows. So it is that they are going to hell for no apparent reason. Do they deserve hell any more than you and I? No we all deserve it, but our escape was made possible by a divine odd man out game... So for no apparent reason we are going to heaven (because we surely did not deserve to be picked, and surely did nothing to get picked), and likewise they for no apparent reason are going to hell (because they surely did not deserve to be picked, and surely were not picked).

 

[eldermike]

Mike, you KNOW I love you. So keep studying ok. It is not a calvinist distinctive (nor is it a very humble position to claim) that "we give God all the credit" as opposed to "you folks who give yourselves the credit" (this type of statement is what has (right or wrong) dubbed (some at least) calvinists as arrogant).

Anyway bro... keep studying..

Thanks brother! I was not attempting to be arrogant, forgive me if I offended you in any way.

And, I am an ordained minister of the gospel, study is a big part of my life.
With that said: All I was trying to say is the condition of man in total is a driving factor in our understanding of spirtual matters. Same is true for the nature of God, we know some of it, in fact we know all we need to know to come to salvation.

Again, I will try a different way. What I discovered in my studies over the many years (from age 14 to 56) is that I was losing track of the nature of sin. I think Calvin brings us to deal with it in good ways. I'll stop there, I do not intend to debate this.

Blessings to you
Mike

 

[JM]

1) Total Depravity of man
2) Unconditional Election
3) Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)
4) Irresistible Grace
5) Perserverance of Saints

All 5, plus two more.

6) Double Predestination (Ephesians 1:5-6; Acts 13:48; Revelation 17:8), so also he decides whom He will not save without regard to any distinctives in the individual (John 10:26; 12:37-40; Romans 9:11-18; 1 Peter 2:7-8).

7) God Governs the course of history. Meaning if we look at the whole course of history, from creation to redemption to eternity and beyond, and see the entirety of God's plan.

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/theological_qa/calvinism/seven_points.html

 

[Beoga]

You miss the point. If they are going to hell it is because that is what God chooses. Therefore there is nothing that they even could do about it. Why are they going to hell? Because God wants them to. Why does He want them to go to hell and others to heaven? Who knows. So it is that they are going to hell for no apparent reason. Do they deserve hell any more than you and I? No we all deserve it, but our escape was made possible by a divine odd man out game... So for no apparent reason we are going to heaven (because we surely did not deserve to be picked, and surely did nothing to get picked), and likewise they for no apparent reason are going to hell (because they surely did not deserve to be picked, and surely were not picked).

do you believe that man is neutral?
Scripture puts the imphasis on sin for the reason some go to hell and on God's grace for the reason we go to Heaven.
Was our escape made possible by some good deed found in man, or by God's grace?
Salvation may seem random to us, but it is according to the will of God.

 

[Terri]

I am a five pointer!!

The problem is that my Dear Husband is a four pointer. This horrible situation has lead to some interesting discussions though.

 

[2Timothy2]

I am a five pointer!!

The problem is that my Dear Husband is a four pointer. This horrible situation has lead to some interesting discussions though.

I can just imagine that it is horrible being a Calvinist.

Kidding, just a joke I couldn't resist.

 

[Terri]

I can just imagine that it is horrible being a Calvinist.

Kidding, just a joke I couldn't resist.

Well, if you were a Calvinist you would have more self control!!

 

[2Timothy2]

Well, if you were a Calvinist you would have more self control!!

Zing, bang, ouch. Good one.

 

[Terri]

Zing, bang, ouch. Good one.

Your a good sport Timothy!! I'm trying to be more careful with my teasing these days, but you seemed like the sort that could take it!!