How many "Kingdoms of Heaven" are there?

Douggg · Jun 11, 2017

5thKingdom said:
Remember... you still need to harmonize the period BETWEEN Rev 19:20
(when the Fourth Beast/Revelation Beast is cast into the Lake of Fire)
with Rev 20:10 (when Satan and the Kingdoms of Man JOIN THE BEAST)
.... which we know happens at the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet.

Well, there's your error - when you think the seventh trumpet sounds. The seven trumpet does not sound at the end of the seven years, but in the middle of it, right after the two witnesses ascend and the earthquake in Jerusalem, in Revelation 11.

(2) Here is when the Seventh Trumpet sounds:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall
all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet [the Seventh Trumpet] shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

The error you are making is assuming that the last trumpet is the seventh trumpet of the Revelation trumpets.

Douggg · Jun 11, 2017

5thKingdom said:
The "tares" are not people OUTSIDE the "Kingdom of Heaven"...
they are people INSIDE the Kingdom... people planted by Satan.

It is a common mistake of "new Christians" to think the "wheat" are the people
in the Christian Kingdom and the "tares" are the people of the world. That is wrong.
Both the "wheat and tares" are people claiming to be Christian.... that is why they
LOOK alike.... and why their gospels LOOK alike.

Jim, thanks for clarifying your point of view. I disagree with it though, as at the time the parable was presented there was no such thing as the church or Christians. And it says in the text that the field is the world.

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

5thKingdom · Jun 11, 2017

Douggg said:
The third woe does not follow on the timeline, to be at the end of the seven years. It is just the order of presentation that John receives. The third woe that John is told about - if placed on a timeline - takes place after the two witnesses finish their 1260 days testimony, and ascend, on day 1263.5 - near the mid-point of the seven years..

The third woe is Satan and his angels casts down to earth, which he has a time, times, and half times left - basically the second half of the seven years. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth (Revelation 12:12).

So the Bible says there is a 5th Trumpet and First Woe
Then a 6th Trumpet and Second Woe
Then a 7th Trumpet and Third Woe

Rev 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

But you now say the 7th Trumpet and (eternal) Third Woe occur BEFORE
the 6th Trumpet and Second Woe?

That is hilarious.

.

5thKingdom · Jun 11, 2017

Douggg said:
Well, there's your error - when you think the seventh trumpet sounds. The seven trumpet does not sound at the end of the seven years...

The error you are making is assuming that the last trumpet is the seventh trumpet of the Revelation trumpets.

Doug... you are CONFLATING what the Bible says and what your "interpretation" is....
and your interpretation was NOT what was preached by the early Christians or the
early Catholics or the Reformers.

BTW.... where in the world do you get the idea that the Fourth Kingdom
(aka Revelation Beast or Great Tribulation) lasts for seven (7) years?
You know that is not the TRADITIONAL doctrine.... right?

.

5thKingdom · Jun 11, 2017

Douggg said:
Jim, thanks for clarifying your point of view. I disagree with it though, as at the time the parable was presented there was no such thing as the church or Christians. And it says in the text that the field is the world.

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Yes Doug... Jesus was not describing the Jewish Kingdom
He was describing the Christian Kingdom that He came to establish.
This is NOT a new teaching.... most theologians understand Mat 13
is talking about the Christian Kingdom.

Yes... the field is the world.... the Gospel goes out to the world (Jews and Gentiles)
but the FRUIT of the world is the "wheat and tares".... in the churches.
Again... this is NOT a new teaching.... this is basic and essential doctrine
for both Catholics and Protestants.

I will post this again.... but you must read for comprehension:
You are having a problem understanding the difference between #5 and #6

------------

(1) The "Kingdom of Heaven" is an earthly Kingdom

(2) The sower of good seed represents the Lord Jesus Christ

(3) The sower of bad seed represents Satan, the King of Babylon

(4) The "Word of the Kingdom" (the seed) is the Gospel of the New Testament

(5) The "field" represents the world, as the Gospel goes forth to both Jew and Gentile

(6) The "fruit" of the field (both wheat and tares) represents the (3rd) "Kingdom of Heaven"

(7) The "Word of the Kingdom" gathers good fish and bad fish during the (3rd) Christian Kingdom

(8) The (saved) "wheat" and the (unsaved) "tares" LOOK similar, and grow together until the end-of-the-age

(9) At the end-of-the-age, the "wheat and tares" (the good fish and bad fish) are separated - during the "Final Harvest"

5thKingdom · Jun 11, 2017

Douggg said:
Well, as presented the question is presumptuous. It is not burning flame. It is the lake of fire, that the beast and false prophet are cast.

But my response to the general gest of the question, it will be one thousand years between when the beast and the false prophet are cast in the lake of fire - and Satan later joining them in the lake of fire.

Greg....
Are you telling me that you cannot discern that Daniel 7:11-12 is the SAME EVENT
as Revelation 19:20? I speak to a lot of Bible students and almost ALL OF THEM
are able to see that.

But... maybe you know better... tell me WHAT does the "Burning Flame" represent?
Please be specific and remember the Fourth Beast represents PEOPLE.

BTW.... before you say the "Season and Time" after the Fourth Beast
is a literal 1000 years..... you need to harmonize Rev 11:14 which says
it comes "quickly".

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold,
the third woe cometh quickly.

The Bible is crystal clear:
The First Woe (and 5th Trumpet) happens first
The Second Woe (and 6th Trumpet) happen next [Rev 9]
The Third Woe (and 7th Trumpet) happen last [Rev 11:14]

Listen... you are entitled to whatever eschatological theories you want.
But there is a REASON why your position is not the TRADITIONAL doctrine
of early Christians and the Catholic church and most Reformers.

And the SEQUENCE of the three trumpets (three woes) is one reason.

.

.

Douggg · Jun 11, 2017

5thKingdom said:
But you now say the 7th Trumpet and (eternal) Third Woe occur BEFORE
the 6th Trumpet and Second Woe?

That is hilarious.

Jim the reason you don't understand it is because you don't understand that Revelation, the end times chapter(s) are grouped according to whether they cover the full 70th week or the second half of the 70th week.

I will explain, expanding what takes place in Chapters 7-9, a group; then what takes place in Chapters 10-11, a group.

Chapter 6 is an overview of the 70th week of Daniel 9, start to finish.

Chapters 7-9 is what takes place during the second half of the 70th week.

John sees something new after the sixth seal. He sees the sealing of the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel, before any hurt is done to the earth, sea, trees.

That hurt comes in chapter 8, as the trumpet judgements begin.

John also sees the great multitude coming out of the great tribulation in Chapter 7. So we know that is the second half of the seventieth week after the abomination of desolation has been setup.

Chapter 8 and 9 takes us through the remainder of the second half of the 70th week as the trumpet judgments take place, to the end when the 200,000,000 strong army kills a third of men. Two woes are described in Chapter 9, with the second woe being near the end of the second half of the 70th week.

Chapters 10-11 is the full 70th week according to the little book John eats

Chapter 10 begins a new vision for John. He sees a mighty angel, who ends up giving him a little book to eat and to prophesy. Then John is given a reed to measure the temple and count them with in. But to leave out the outer court because it will be tread down by the Gentiles 42 months (the same 42 months of the second half of the 70th week the beast rules in Revelation 13)

So that indicates the second half - the 42 months.

And John is told the two witnesses testify 1260 days. Those 1260 days are the same 1260 days in Revelation 12, that in the text come before the war in heaven, and Satan cast down for the time, times, half times. Thus we can know the 1260 days is the first half of the 70th week... leaving the time, times, half times as the second half of the 70th week.

The seventh trumpet sounds right after the 1260 days of the two witnesses - which places the seventh trumpet - which announces the third woe to mankind - Satan cast down to earth - as being near the mid-point of the 70th week.

So it is by separation of the chapters - what they cover - that the 1st and 2nd woes within Chapters 7-9 group are near the end of the second half of the 70th week. While the 3rd woe, within the Chapters 10-11 group, although numerically 3 follows 2 - the action of the 3rd woe is on a timeline before the 1st and 2nd woe.

As verification, Satan as the star fallen from heaven, when he is cast down to earth, the third woe is at the beginning of Chapter 9 before woes 1 and 2.

Chapter 12 is the 70th week relevant to Israel.

Chapters 13-14 is the second half of the 70th week, the great tribulation.

Chapters 15-16 is the second half of the 70th week, God's vials of wrath.

Chapters 17-18 is about Mystery Babylon, the beast, the seven kings and ten kings

Chapter 19 is the glorious return of Jesus to complete the 70th week.

Douggg · Jun 11, 2017

5thKingdom said:
(5) The "field" represents the world, as the Gospel goes forth to both Jew and Gentile

(6) The "fruit" of the field (both wheat and tares) represents the (3rd) "Kingdom of Heaven"

Where are you reading fruit in these verses? It says in the text the good seed are the children of the kingdom. The tares are not of the kingdom.

Matthew 13:
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Douggg · Jun 11, 2017

5thKingdom said:
Greg....
Are you telling me that you cannot discern that Daniel 7:11-12 is the SAME EVENT
as Revelation 19:20? I speak to a lot of Bible students and almost ALL OF THEM
are able to see that.

Who's Greg? You are confusing the horn (the person) on the beast (the kingdom) with the beast the kingdom. The beast (the kingdom) in Daniel 7:11 does not equal the beast (the person) cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20.

The horn (a person) of the beast (the 4th kingdom) in Daniel 7:11 is who will be cast into alive (not slain) into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake:
[the (little) horn on the beast in Daniel 7 eventually becomes the beast of Revelation 13.
Which that person as the beast will be cast alive into the lake of fire, in Revelation 19:20]
in Revelation 19:20

I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

The beast being referred above is the 4th kingdom (end times version) that metaphorically will be slain, and burnt up.... i.e. no longer exist, dismantled.

Douggg · Jun 11, 2017

5thKingdom said:
Doug... you are CONFLATING what the Bible says and what your "interpretation" is....
and your interpretation was NOT what was preached by the early Christians or the
early Catholics or the Reformers.

BTW.... where in the world do you get the idea that the Fourth Kingdom
(aka Revelation Beast or Great Tribulation) lasts for seven (7) years?
You know that is not the TRADITIONAL doctrine.... right?

You are muddying the waters. It is irrelevant what early Catholics and/or Reformers taught.

No, I have not said or implied that the fourth kingdom lasts for seven years. The fourth kingdom (the end times extension of it) is the EU, that as the EEC was founded by the treaty of Rome in the 1958.

The ten leader form of government of is shortly going to appear. Then of course, the identity of the person who eventually becomes the Antichrist will be known. Certain parameters will verify his identity. He will be a Jew. His religion Judaism. He will have a determined look appearance and will appeal to the Europeans - probably because of his anti-muslim take over of Europe likely.

Radrook · Jun 11, 2017

Thy kingdom come! Thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.

That means that the heavenly Kingdom takes over full control of Earth's affairs and Satan's control is terminated.

Daniel 2:44 ►
New International Version
"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: "The kingdom of the world is now the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever."

2 Peter 3:13 ►
New International Version
But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

jerry kelso · Jun 11, 2017

5thKingdom said:
(3) First you assume the A-Millennial position is wrong.
Secondly, the bible specifically calls the Jewish Kingdom the "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
so that negates your argument there. Third, if you think the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
was not backslidden... you need to read Revelation chaptes 2 & 3 again.

It was always PART of the Christian Gospel that the "Kingdom of Heaven"
(the Christian Kingdom) would be infiltrated by unsaved "tares" and the "leaven" of their
false doctrines would corrupt the church and eventually the entire Kingdom. In fact, the
reason we currently have hundreds of churches preaching false doctrines is the FULFILLMENT
of that prophecy.

Fourth.... the "church" that shall not perish is the "wheat" (the "Body of Christ") it is NOT
the "tares" within the church. I assume you already know that the word "church" can
represent EITHER the entire (visible) church of "wheat and tares".... or the (eternal) church
of only "wheat".... we must determine which is in view by the CONTEXT. Nowhere in the Bible
does it suggest that the "tares" inherit the eternal "Kingdom of Heaven".

(4) Your comments contradict Scripture. The "Kingdom of God" was not NT church
because (a) it does not contain any "tares" (which the NT church has MANY) and because
it does not contain any "flesh and blood" (which the NT church obviously is)

Listen.... I am not saying that you should already KNOW these realities...
I am only saying that your current understanding does not HARMONIZE with Scripture.
Of course.... that was foretold.

Because I take you seriously.... because I sense that you are a serious Bible student...
I encourage you to read the information on the website listed below.

I promise you that MOST of the information will be NEW to you and
I promise you will not like MOST of the information on the site and
I promise you cannot find ONE VERSE in the Bible to contradict anything.

www.5thKingdomofHeaven.com

Notice I said ONE VERSE... not your "opinion", not your "feelings"...
it does not matter if you DENY the information... you must be able to REFUTE
the information with SCRIPTURE.

The information has already been TESTED by (literally) HUNDREDS of esteemed theologians
teaching in some of the most prestigious seminaries in America and by HUNDREDS of pastors
teaching in the most traditional Protestant churches. And NONE OF THEM (not even one) could
find any Scripture to REFUTE the information. Many DENIED the information based on "feelings"
or their "opinion" but NONE could present SCRIPTURE to refute anything...
I challenge you to do better.

Since I do consider you to be serious.
I will continue discussion with you (I will be ignoring most others)
but I ask that you argue ONE ISSUE at a time... in order to keep discussions
coherent and on point.

Jim

.

5thkingdom,

1. a-millennial is wrong about the post rapture and I gave scriptural context and you have not debunked it scripturally and cannot.

2. Matthew 22:2; the KoH parables are basically about the rejection of Israel and that is why it will happen at the second advent.
Israel will be at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4. The Jews have an earthly calling and the present church a heavenly calling but will be a part of the KoH reign in the millennial kingdom and we are being trained for it now 2 Timothy 2:12. So there is no argument to negate in that respect.

3. Revelation 2&3 is not about entrance into the KoH reign.
The 7 churches of Asia are used as an example for the whole church historically and future throughout the church dispensation.
The true believers are overcomers and they are the true church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
There were people in these churches that were non believers and others who had fallen into sin or grown lukewarm etc. and there warned to repent for only the saved that stay faithful are the true church. It doesn't mean that believers can't fail and fall into sin.
The physical nation of Israel was trodden under the foot of men especially in 70 A.D. but not the church of true believers. The professing church will fail and we can see the conditions of many churches going awry today with the same conditions as in Revelation 2&3. The true church that the gates of hell shall never prevail against are saved people who stay faithful.

4. The Physical KoH earthly sphere is in the sphere of profession so there are tares and wheat in this dispensation of the church age and I never disagreed with that and I never said Tate's couldn't be in the viable church.

5. The Kingdom of God physical which is Heaven has no flesh or blood that will inherit it.
The KoG in Jesus day which was under the Old Covenant of the Mosaic law in its spiritual aspect had to with repentance Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20. They had to have the spiritual aspect of the KoG of a repentant heart so they could be saved in order to gain entrance into the physical KoH reign on earth Matthew 4:17;6:33;Luke 17:20.
The spiritual aspect of the KoG in the church today is in Romans 14:17.
Colossians 1:13 the kingdom of his dear son we are translated into from darkness to light.
This is the same as being born again that started with John 3 born of water and the Spirit.
The Jews born of water which was tied into the Red Sea deliverance where they were baptized in the cloud and the sea 1 Corinthians 10:1-4.
Born of the Spirit was prophetic to the New Covenant for there were to be birthed by the Spirit Ezekiel 36:26-27. This new birth by the Spirit came to full fruition at Calvary.

6. I have given scripture and scriptural context and there is nothing contradictory I have said.
I understand you are trying to have an organized system of the KoH but, just like any other school of thought can run off the track if one is not careful whether it be dispensational, covenant theology, a-millennial etc.

7. I do not believe in giving opinions but scripture and scriptural context and how to reconcile the scriptures together properly and if I have an opinion I can assure you I will say it is my opinion.

8. I will be glad to read your link and there's not much I haven't heard or that takes me by surprise.
The funny thing is the things I have agreed with you on certain things about the KoH and you think I am contradictory to you and the scriptures. Till next time. Jerry kelso

5thKingdom · Jun 11, 2017

jerry kelso said:
5thkingdom,

1. a-millennial is wrong about the post rapture and I gave scriptural context and you have not debunked it scripturally and cannot.
Jerry kelso

The A-Millennial doctrine is the TRADITIONAL doctrine of the early Christians
and the Catholic church and most of the Reformers.... I have not seen any
SCRIPTURE (or any Biblical reason) refuting that view from you... if I missed
it I apologize.

But let's remember... the CONTEXT of this thread is how many "Kingdoms of Heaven"
are there are earth and the BIBLE specifically NAMES four (out of five) periods as the
"Kingdom of Heaven".... and DEFINES four of those Kingdoms as "wheat and tares"
of both "flesh and blood".

If you can REFUTE the A-Millennial position... I would like to see that.
If you can REFUTE the fact the BIBLE NAMES four separate "Kingdoms of Heaven" show me.

Otherwise... so far, I have only seen you DENY what the Bible specifically NAMES
(regarding the KOH) and I have only seen you DENY the traditional A-Millennial doctrine.

I will wait to see if you have SCRIPTURE to support your denial.

Jim

5thKingdom · Jun 11, 2017

jerry kelso said:
2. Matthew 22:2; the KoH parables are basically about the rejection of Israel and that is why it will happen at the second advent.
Israel will be at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4. The Jews have an earthly calling and the present church a heavenly calling but will be a part of the KoH reign in the millennial kingdom and we are being trained for it now 2 Timothy 2:12. So there is no argument to negate in that respect.

Matthew 22:2 specifically NAMES the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom as the "Kingdom of Heaven".
That is not in dispute.

Isaiah 2:2-4 does not negate that fact. It is talking about the (3rd) Christian KOH
replacing the Jewish KOH. EXACTLY as Matthew 22 is talking about the Christian Kingdom
replacing the Jewish Kingdom.... there are (literally) DOZENS of passages that talk about
the Christian Kingdom replacing the Jewish Kingdom

So your second point is based on you CONFLATING two separate events....
a position that cannot be supported by Scripture because the Jewish Kingdom
does not have some special "place" at the Lord's Return... there is ONE and only
ONE "Body of Christ". If you have other passages like Isaiah 2:2-4 that you THINK
teach a special place for Israel at the Seventh Trumpet... let me know chapter and verse.

Because the Bible is clear there is no such event.

You must remember that often the Bible uses terms like "Jerusalem" and "Israel" and Judah"
and "Temple" and "Holy Place" and "Sanctuary"... etc, etc, do DEFINE the "Body of Christ"
that exists in EACH the Jewish Kingdom and Christian Kingdom and Great Tribulation Kingdom.

I any case.... the EVENT described in Isaiah 2 is talking about an EVENT that occurs
during the FOURTH Kingdom (Revelations Beast)... read the CONTEXT of the passage.
After the Jewish Kingdom there is the Christian Kingdom (where all the "sheep are saved")
and then the "Day of the Lord" where the "Body of Christ" destroys the "Kingdom of Babylon".

Isaiah 2 does NOT teach anything other than the Christian Kingdom replaces
the Jewish Kingdom and (in the end) the "Body of Christ" will rule the earth.
In fact... I can think of several passages that are BETTER than Isaiah 2
if you wanted to argue otherwise.

Jim

5thKingdom · Jun 11, 2017

jerry kelso said:
3. Revelation 2&3 is not about entrance into the KoH reign.
The 7 churches of Asia are used as an example for the whole church historically and future throughout the church dispensation.
The true believers are overcomers and they are the true church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
There were people in these churches that were non believers and others who had fallen into sin or grown lukewarm etc. and there warned to repent for only the saved that stay faithful are the true church. It doesn't mean that believers can't fail and fall into sin.
The physical nation of Israel was trodden under the foot of men especially in 70 A.D. but not the church of true believers. The professing church will fail and we can see the conditions of many churches going awry today with the same conditions as in Revelation 2&3. The true church that the gates of hell shall never prevail against are saved people who stay faithful.
is new birth by the Spirit came to full fruition at Calvary.

First... I never said Rev chapters 2 & 3 talks "about entrance into the KOH"...
that is a STRAWMAN.

The "churches" in Rev 2 & 3 were ALREADY PART of the Christian KOH...
do you not notice they are called "churches"... and Matt 13 tells us that
the "churches" are the "Kingdom of Heaven".

Rev 2 simple shows the FULFILLMENT of the Gospel. That the Christian "KOH"
would be infiltrated by unsaved "tares" and the "leaven" of their false doctrines
would corrupt the church (and eventually the entire Kingdom) and the PROCESS
had already begun while the Apostles taught... you can see the EXTENT of that
process before the end of the first century by reading chapters 2 & 3.

The physical destruction of the Jewish Kingdom means NOTHING...
because the Lord had already promised (both in the OT and NT) that the
Jewish nation would be forsaken.... and the Christian Kingdom would replace it.

Jim

5thKingdom · Jun 11, 2017

jerry kelso said:
4. The Physical KoH earthly sphere is in the sphere of profession so there are tares and wheat in this dispensation of the church age and I never disagreed with that and I never said Tate's couldn't be in the viable church.

No... the physical KOH is the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" consisting
of all the "wheat and tares" within national Israel.... the Kingdom AFTER the end
of the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom.

There were "wheat and tares" in the Pre-Flood KOH.....
There were "wheat and tares" in the Jewish KOH
There were "wheat and tares" in the Christian KOH
There were "wheat and tares" in the Great Tribulation KOH

They were NAMED the ten "horns/kings" in Daniel 7
They were NAMED the ten "horns/kings" in Rev 17
They were NAMED the ten "toes/kings of IRON in Dan 2
They were NAMED the ten "virgins" in Mat 25

This is called "harmony of Scripture".
The Bible gives DOZENS of accounts of the SAME EVENT...
we must be about to harmonize ALL THOSE passages...
not just two-or-three of our favorite passages.

Jim

5thKingdom · Jun 11, 2017

jerry kelso said:
5. The Kingdom of God physical which is Heaven has no flesh or blood that will inherit it.
The KoG in Jesus day which was under the Old Covenant of the Mosaic law in its spiritual aspect had to with repentance Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20. They had to have the spiritual aspect of the KoG of a repentant heart so they could be saved in order to gain entrance into the physical KoH reign on earth Matthew 4:17;6:33;Luke 17:20.
The spiritual aspect of the KoG in the church today is in Romans 14:17.
Colossians 1:13 the kingdom of his dear son we are translated into from darkness to light.
This is the same as being born again that started with John 3 born of water and the Spirit.
The Jews born of water which was tied into the Red Sea deliverance where they were baptized in the cloud and the sea 1 Corinthians 10:1-4.
Born of the Spirit was prophetic to the New Covenant for there were to be birthed by the Spirit Ezekiel 36:26-27. This new birth by the Spirit came to full fruition at Calvary.

The KOG EXISTED during EACH of the (four) temporal KOH
This is proven absolutely here:

----------------------------------

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The KINGDOM OF GOD
shall be TAKEN from you, [taken from the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"]
and GIVEN to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. [Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".

----------------------------

The KOG is the saved "wheat" throughout history....
but it is only their SOULS. Because, when we are "saved" or "born again"
it is only our SOULS that are "translated" out of Satan's Kingdom of Babylon
and into the (eternal) KOG.

The KOG is an earthly Kingdom.... and it exists throughout history....
but it only contains the SOULS of the "wheat" that have been "regenerated".
That is why some passages can interchange the terms KOH and KOG because
they are focusing ONLY on the "wheat" in the Kingdom and not the "tares".

Jim

5thKingdom · Jun 11, 2017

jerry kelso said:
6. I have given scripture and scriptural context and there is nothing contradictory I have said.
I understand you are trying to have an organized system of the KoH but, just like any other school of thought can run off the track if one is not careful whether it be dispensational, covenant theology, a-millennial etc.

Of course YOU do not find anything contrary.... that is always how it is.... it means nothing.
I have already SHOWN you contrary passages.

This is not a matter of opinion...
This is a matter of harmony of Scripture.

And there is no dispurte the BIBLE specifically NAMES the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom
and the (3rd) Christian Kingdom and the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom and
the (5th) Eternal Kingdom by the TERM "Kingdom of Heaven".

You have shown NO SCRIPTURE to refute that Biblical fact...
and you have only offered your "private interpretation" to DENY that fact.
Your "feelings" or your "opinions" or your "denials" mean LESS than nothing.
You must show SCRIPTURE to refute SCRIPTURE.

Otherwise you have two options:
(1) You can simply IGNORE contradictory Scriptures and pretend that matters or
(2) You can SUBMIT to the harmony of ALL RELATED SCRIPTURES and amend your theory.

When you can explain how EACH of the five (5) "Kingdoms of Heaven" exist on earth....
then (and only then) can you claim to have harmony of Scripture. Until that time the best
you can offer is some partial-truth (or assume that some Scriptures are incorrect).

Jim

5thKingdom · Jun 11, 2017

jerry kelso said:
7. I do not believe in giving opinions but scripture and scriptural context and how to reconcile the scriptures together properly and if I have an opinion I can assure you I will say it is my opinion.

Agreed....
Since the BIBLE specifically NAMES four of the five "Kingdoms of Heaven"
you must show HOW each was the KOH. That is what I have done....
while you have simply DENIED what the Bible specifically NAMES.

This is simple Jerry....
Explain how the (5th) Eternal Kingdom was the "KOH"
Explain how the (4th) Great Tribulation was the "KOH"
Explain how the (3rd) Christian Kingdom was the "KOH"
Explain how the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom was the "KOH"
Explain how the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom was the "KOH"

You must harmonize the SCRIPTURES which specifically NAME these Kingdoms
as the "KOH".... otherwise you are offering "opinions" or "feelings" as a SUBSTITUTE
for Scripture... and that means LESS than nothing.

Should we just INTENTIONALLY IGNORE the passages in Mat 5 and 7 and 8 and 19
and 22 and 25 and 13?

Is that your "solution".... to intentionally IGNORE what the Bible specifically NAMES?

Jim

.

5thKingdom · Jun 11, 2017

jerry kelso said:
8. I will be glad to read your link and there's not much I haven't heard or that takes me by surprise.
The funny thing is the things I have agreed with you on certain things about the KoH and you think I am contradictory to you and the scriptures. Till next time. Jerry kelso

Again... I CHALLENGE you to read the link carefully
and to provide just ONE VERSE in the Bible that contradicts anything.
You will not be able to do so.

HUNDREDS of theologians have tried.... HUNDREDS of pastors have tried...
and NONE of them have be able.... which is the historical fulfillment of Scripture.

--------------------

How many "Kingdoms of Heaven" are there?

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Food For Thought

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency