How Many Heads ?

[nobdysfool]

Mikey said this and you said that YOU must be born again, not Jesus being born IN YOU..

Jesus is in us by His Spirit. Jesus Himself is at the right hand of God, in heaven. No one of us has said otherwise. The failure to understand what is being said is not from lack of explanation, but from lack of comprehension. So to continually raise false accusations, attributed to those who oppose the OP's ridiculous assertions, is nothing more than trying to stir up strife.

Scripture states that he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. So, if that is so (and it is), does that mean we are in Heaven with Christ already? I don't think anyone would assert that, because it is obviously not so, right now. Yet it is asserted that Jesus dwells completely within each Christian's body, so completely that it is Christ who is the new man, and not the believer. Logically, this renders the new birth unnecessary, since the new man is Christ, under this scenario. What is the point of the new birth, if the person is still to remain the old man?

Paul says "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me and the life that I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me". In this passage, Paul is speaking of the UNION of the believer with Christ. But the OP wants to focus on the "I am crucified", "yet not I" part, and in effect remove himself from living, and then claim that it is all Christ who is living in him, and living life, when Paul's point is clearly that we are alive and live in our union with Christ, and that we are dependent on Him.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. ." This verse alone shoots a hole straight through the heart of the OP's assertions. "All things" includes the person himself.

It doesn't take long to see in Scripture that the OP is clearly a misinterpretation and selective reading and comprehension of some key passages, that when seen in their context, say the exact opposite of what is being asserted.

 

[heymikey80]

Mikey, you don't believe that Christ is IN YOU ? Dr just basically said the same thing.

By saying something is not the case, I'm pointing out it can't be the case in the manner in which the term is being used.

Christ is "en" us. Christ is not "in" us in the sense meant by trying to total-up the number of persons in us.

That was made clear in the discussion -- the words are being used equivocally. Clearly the definitions have changed again. Unduly equivocating on the word is generally considered a logical fallacy.

The OP is attempting to distinguish separate identities of persons within the human being. The problem is that a person within a person is actually something that makes-up the person.

So it can't be "with" the person, if it's "in" the person.

 

[Markea]

Paul says "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me and the life that I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me". In this passage, Paul is speaking of the UNION of the believer with Christ. But the OP wants to focus on the "I am crucified", "yet not I" part, and in effect remove himself from living, and then claim that it is all Christ who is living in him, and living life, when Paul's point is clearly that we are alive and live in our union with Christ, and that we are dependent on Him.

nobdy,

I can't see how Gal 2:20 can have anything to do with my being alive.. it says that I am crucified with Christ (aligns with buried with Him in baptism), and risen again with new life IN CHRIST, the One who IS the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Now it is not I, but Christ LIVETH IN ME.

I don't see how it could be made any more plain than that... and it also aligns with the entire theme of the NT in that all are condemned in Adam and all justified freely in Christ... it aligns with the fact that IF I shall seek to save MY LIFE that I SHALL LOSE IT, and that IF I lose it for CHRIST that I shall save it... it aligns with what Paul says in Colossians, how that YE ARE DEAD and your life is hid with CHRIST in God.. who IS OUR LIFE.

I also don't think that I've read a commentary on Gal 2:20 which attempts to show that I am alive along with Christ.. do you know of any ?

 

[nobdysfool]

nobdy,

I can't see how Gal 2:20 can have anything to do with my being alive.. it says that I am crucified with Christ (aligns with buried with Him in baptism), and risen again with new life IN CHRIST, the One who IS the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Now it is not I, but Christ LIVETH IN ME.

I don't see how it could be made any more plain than that... and it also aligns with the entire theme of the NT in that all are condemned in Adam and all justified freely in Christ... it aligns with the fact that IF I shall seek to save MY LIFE that I SHALL LOSE IT, and that IF I lose it for CHRIST that I shall save it... it aligns with what Paul says in Colossians, how that YE ARE DEAD and your life is hid with CHRIST in God.. who IS OUR LIFE.

I also don't think that I've read a commentary on Gal 2:20 which attempts to show that I am alive along with Christ.. do you know of any ?

Ignoring what is right in front of you...You cannot be both dead an alive at the same time. It's one or the other, and Scripture shows us that we are born again unto everlasting life. when Paul speaks "yet not I, but Christ liveth in me", he is not speaking of you not being alive in the absolute sense, but you not being alive to yourself, but to Christ. You are alive, and joined to Christ in spirit, such that you are being conformed to His image, but it is YOU that is being conformed, not Christ. He is the pattern, and standard, and doesn't need to be conformed to what He already is. That is for YOU. The old man that you claim you still are, is your physical body, which will someday be transformed like unto His glorious body. It will be changed from flesh and blood to flesh and bone, like Christ's body, glorified flesh and bone. You are misunderstanding what Paul is saying, and what Jesus is saying, and it's creating confusion, which is certainly not from Him. Please step outside the little box you've created, and see what we are saying.

 

[Markea]

Ignoring what is right in front of you...

I'm not ignoring what is right in front of me.. Is it ok that we might see it differently ?

You cannot be both dead an alive at the same time. It's one or the other, and Scripture shows us that we are born again unto everlasting life.

And I think that this is another major difference of opinion between us... because I think that being born again is having Christ born in me, the one who is the LIFE.. whereas I think that you are saying that being born again is a recreation of YOU... right ?

when Paul speaks "yet not I, but Christ liveth in me", he is not speaking of you not being alive in the absolute sense, but you not being alive to yourself, but to Christ.

Then why does Paul flat out say that YE ARE DEAD in Col ? Is he mistaken ?

You are alive, and joined to Christ in spirit, such that you are being conformed to His image, but it is YOU that is being conformed, not Christ. He is the pattern, and standard, and doesn't need to be conformed to what He already is. That is for YOU.

If this were true, then wouldn't my hope of glory be 'me' recreated..? IT's not though, my hope of glory is Christ in me. I am a member of Christ's body. Besides that, Paul doesn't teach me that I am alive, again, he tells me flat out that I am DEAD.

You say I am alive, Paul says that I am dead... who should I trust ?

The old man that you claim you still are, is your physical body, which will someday be transformed like unto His glorious body.

Don't you still have an old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts.. ?

It will be changed from flesh and blood to flesh and bone, like Christ's body, glorified flesh and bone. You are misunderstanding what Paul is saying, and what Jesus is saying, and it's creating confusion, which is certainly not from Him. Please step outside the little box you've created, and see what we are saying.

SO what do you think that the Lord meant when He said that if any man shall come after Him that he must DENY HIMSELF, take up his cross and follow Christ, for if I shall seek to save MY LIFE I shall lose it and that if I lose it for CHRIST I shall save it..?

What does that mean to you and how do you see that as you being alive ?

 

[cygnusx1]

I note others understand my comments and their import, yet you do not. Ever thought the problem might not be me?

As to the degree, its a PhD in Reformation History and Theology from Westminster Theological Seminary. My dissertation was on the Soteriology of the English General Baptists to 1630. My external reader, Dr. Estep, is no Calvinist yet he gave my dissertation high commendation and suggested it be printed by Oxford Press.

My dissertation advisor, Dr Clair Davis, regularly used humor to make theological points.

During the Reformation era there were many theological cartoons printed and distributed to the masses to teach theology and expose error.

So, I'm in good company. Sorry you are confounded.

didn't Estep do a work on the Anabaptists ?

Steve , get your dissertation published I would buy a copy

 

[nobdysfool]

I'm not ignoring what is right in front of me.. Is it ok that we might see it differently ?

That much is obvious.

And I think that this is another major difference of opinion between us... because I think that being born again is having Christ born in me, the one who is the LIFE.. whereas I think that you are saying that being born again is a recreation of YOU... right ?

"Create in ME a clean heart, O Lord. Renew a right spirit in me"...Whose heart and spirit is being renewed? This is the same thing stated two ways, which is a common way of speaking in Hebrew all through the OT. David didn't see it your way, either.

Then why does Paul flat out say that YE ARE DEAD in Col ? Is he mistaken ?

Dead unto sin. It's clear from the context. Let's pick it up in chapter 2:

Col 2:9-13 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 3:1-10 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. (3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. (4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. (5) Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: (6) For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: (7) In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. (8) But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. (9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; (10) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

​

The last half of verse 9 and verse 10 of chapter 3 show that Paul does not agree with your interpretation. In context, it is clear that Paul does not mean in verse 3 of chapter 3 that you are literally dead, the context is clearly "dead to sin." the new man is clearly not Christ Himself, otherwise, verse 10 makes no sense. The new man is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him (the new man). Now, we know that Christ is not created, so the new man CANNOT be Christ. It MUST be YOU, whose heart has been recreated by God (create in me a clean heart, O Lord).

Romans, chapter 6 (the entire chapter) also shows that Paul does not agree with you. "Reckon yourselves to be dead unto sin, and alive unto God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord."

If this were true, then wouldn't my hope of glory be 'me' recreated..? IT's not though, my hope of glory is Christ in me. I am a member of Christ's body. Besides that, Paul doesn't teach me that I am alive, again, he tells me flat out that I am DEAD.

You say I am alive, Paul says that I am dead... who should I trust ?

Well I have just proven that paul didn't mean what you are trying to say he meant. And your hope of glory is still Christ in you, but Christ is not you. Christ is not the new man, because He is not created.

Don't you still have an old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts.. ?

As Paul has said, I am putting off the old man, and putting on the new man, who is created in the image of Christ. It is a process, not an event. The overall term for it is sanctification.

SO what do you think that the Lord meant when He said that if any man shall come after Him that he must DENY HIMSELF, take up his cross and follow Christ, for if I shall seek to save MY LIFE I shall lose it and that if I lose it for CHRIST I shall save it..?

What does that mean to you and how do you see that as you being alive ?

It is obvious that what is meant is self interest. Even a child can understand that. Deny himself....what does that mean, Markea? Kill your self? Or does it mean, deny your own self interest?

 

[Markea]

That much is obvious.

Yes, and I wasn't ignoring anything as you claimed.

"Create in ME a clean heart, O Lord. Renew a right spirit in me"...Whose heart and spirit is being renewed? This is the same thing stated two ways, which is a common way of speaking in Hebrew all through the OT. David didn't see it your way, either.

Well, isn't Jesus the hidden man of the heart according to Peter ?

Dead unto sin. It's clear from the context. Let's pick it up in chapter

I agree, and WHO is OUR LIFE... is it me, or is it CHRIST in me ? The text is clear, when Christ appears, WHO IS OUR LIFE, we shall appear with Him.. and we do not yet see what we shall be, but we shall be LIKE HIM.

The last half of verse 9 and verse 10 of chapter 3 show that Paul does not agree with your interpretation.

No, it shows that you might have a different opinion of what Paul is saying.

In context, it is clear that Paul does not mean in verse 3 of chapter 3 that you are literally dead, the context is clearly "dead to sin."

Who said anything about being literally dead...?

the new man is clearly not Christ Himself, otherwise, verse 10 makes no sense. The new man is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him (the new man). Now, we know that Christ is not created, so the new man CANNOT be Christ. It MUST be YOU, whose heart has been recreated by God (create in me a clean heart, O Lord).

So then there would be CHRIST IN YOU and a RECREATED YOU in you then, correct..? How many is that ?

Romans, chapter 6 (the entire chapter) also shows that Paul does not agree with you. "Reckon yourselves to be dead unto sin, and alive unto God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord."

Then maybe Paul was mistaken in Romans 7 when he writes about the wretched man that he is, in this body of DEATH.

Well I have just proven that paul didn't mean what you are trying to say he meant. And your hope of glory is still Christ in you, but Christ is not you. Christ is not the new man, because He is not created.

No, you haven't proven anything, you shared your opinion on the matter... unless of course you consider your opinion superior to any other. Christ is created in us... the scriptures are perfectly clear in teaching that CHRIST is in me.. how did He get there ?

I asked Dr how this happens although he isn't willing to answer.

What in the scriptures do you associate with Christ coming into your life and dwelling within you, if it's not when you're born again ?

As Paul has said, I am putting off the old man, and putting on the new man, who is created in the image of Christ. It is a process, not an event. The overall term for it is sanctification.

I understand that... I MUST DECREASE and HE MUST INCREASE... and that's a war which every Christian deals with on a daily basis.. the FLESH and the SPIRIT.

It is obvious that what is meant is self interest. Even a child can understand that. Deny himself....what does that mean, Markea? Kill your self? Or does it mean, deny your own self interest?

It has to do with HEADSHIP... who is going to be LORD of my life... is it me, is it a recreated me, or is it CHRIST in me..?

Who is the HEAD of every man ?

 

[Markea]

Let's take a look at some of the biblical teachings on headship..

Why should a woman be obedient to her husband ? Isn't it because the head of every woman is the man ?

Who is the head of every man ? It is Christ of course.

We are renewed in our minds... and that's where headship plays a vital part in the person. We have not our own mind, but the mind of Christ.

 

[drstevej]

Are we gonna discuss how many heads a married woman who is also a Calvinist has?

Too convoluted for me. I leave it with you.

 

[heymikey80]

I can't see how Gal 2:20 can have anything to do with my being alive.. it says that I am crucified with Christ (aligns with buried with Him in baptism), and risen again with new life IN CHRIST, the One who IS the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Now it is not I, but Christ LIVETH IN ME.

"nevertheless I live". Paul expresses the situation in paradox. Overemphasizing either size compromises the whole of what Paul is saying.

I also don't think that I've read a commentary on Gal 2:20 which attempts to show that I am alive along with Christ.. do you know of any ?

Nevertheless I live. To the feelings of man, the word Death is always unpleasant. Having said that we are "crucified with Christ," he therefore adds, "that this makes us alive." Calvin, Commentaries.

 

[Hotpepper]

...but before I step away, I highly recommend:

"Christ in You": A Study in Paul's Theology and Ethics by William B. Barcley

An article and summary of "Christ in You" by William B. Barcley

Also since this thread has shifted more toward Christology it would probably be more appropriate to start a new thread there.






.

 

[nobdysfool]

Yes, and I wasn't ignoring anything as you claimed.

Only that which has been said, but never addressed....

Well, isn't Jesus the hidden man of the heart according to Peter ?

1Pe 3:1-12 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; (2) While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. (3) Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; (4) But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. (5) For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: (6) Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. (7) Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. (8) Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: (9) Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. (10) For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: (11) Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. (12) For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

​

Nowhere in this passage does it say that Jesus is the hidden man of the heart. Not once. Peter is speaking to christian women, about their conduct. I would say that the claim that Jesus is the hidden man of the heart in 1 Peter 3:4 (the only place that phrase appears) is without merit or proof. It is made up out of whole cloth. This passage cannot be appealed to as proof of the view being promoted by the OP. It simply does not say what the OP claims it says.

I agree, and WHO is OUR LIFE... is it me, or is it CHRIST in me ? The text is clear, when Christ appears, WHO IS OUR LIFE, we shall appear with Him.. and we do not yet see what we shall be, but we shall be LIKE HIM.

And separate from Him. Christ gives YOU life everlasting, for faith in Him.

No, it shows that you might have a different opinion of what Paul is saying.

I am taking Paul's own words, which are not ambiguous, or unclear, at face value. It is not just my opinion, it is Paul's as well.

Who said anything about being literally dead...?

The undue emphasis on parts of Paul's and Jesus' statements, while ignoring other parts right next to them, when logically thought out, lead to that conclusion, that literal death is what must be meant. Otherwise, the OP's view is internally inconsistent, and fatally so. And it is clear from Paul's and Jesus' own words that they do not mean literal death in application to the Believer. The OP is taking the part to be the whole, and distorting the words of Paul and Jesus in doing so.

So then there would be CHRIST IN YOU and a RECREATED YOU in you then, correct..? How many is that ?

What difference does it make? The whole view is rife with obvious errors. Many have been pointed out.

Then maybe Paul was mistaken in Romans 7 when he writes about the wretched man that he is, in this body of DEATH.

Look at that phrase: the body of this death. It is the body which the Christian fights against to resist sin, the temptations of the flesh, the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eye, and the boastful pride of life. The Christian's spirit does not desire sin any longer. He has been born from above. But he still lives in the physical body which was the habitation of the old man, the natural man, the carnal man that he was before he was born from above, by God. The source of the Christian's fight against sin is the very body of flesh he inhabits. The answer to your question is right in front of you.

No, you haven't proven anything, you shared your opinion on the matter... unless of course you consider your opinion superior to any other. Christ is created in us... the scriptures are perfectly clear in teaching that CHRIST is in me.. how did He get there ?

Christ is NOT created in any way shape or form. What is created in us is Christ-likeness. Christ is joined to us, and we to Him, in spirit, but He is still Christ, and we are still who we are, forgiven, justified and set apart in Him. We grow in grace and are to become LIKE Him, but we do not become Him.

I asked Dr how this happens although he isn't willing to answer.

Or possibly he senses that you won't receive it, if he does. Just sayin'...

What in the scriptures do you associate with Christ coming into your life and dwelling within you, if it's not when you're born again ?

Christ indwells me in spirit, but He doesn't take me over and push me out, nor is that His purpose in indwelling the Believer. His purpose is to ENABLE the believer to become LIKE Him.

I understand that... I MUST DECREASE and HE MUST INCREASE... and that's a war which every Christian deals with on a daily basis.. the FLESH and the SPIRIT.

Quoting John the Baptist is out of context. The denial of self is denial of self-interest. It is denial of owning one's own life, because Scripture clearly states that we are not our own, we have been bought by another, namely Christ.

It has to do with HEADSHIP... who is going to be LORD of my life... is it me, is it a recreated me, or is it CHRIST in me..?

Who is the HEAD of every man ?

Here we go, drag yet another concept into the mix, because the OP is losing traction, as it is examined, and found to be lacking in logic, consistency, and Scriptural foundation.

Christ is the head of the Body of Christ. We, as His body (corporately and individually) are under that headship. He is the Lord of my life, but He does not live my life, I live the life He has created in me when He birthed me into His Kingdom, that everlasting life which He promised to those who believe on Him. My old life (the old man) has been crucified, and no longer exists, because I have been raised in newness of life to serve Him, nevertheless, I LIVE, but because I am alive, does not mean that I am lord of my life, I have already given that over to Christ, when I believed. I fight against the one remaining vestige of my former life, the body of flesh I inhabit until He comes. But that which I was, is no longer. That which I am now, is by Him, from Him, and is lived unto Him, both now and into the future.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread has had a small clean up. If your post is missing, it is because it was a violation or a response to a post that was removed. ​