How many have actually read The Great Controversy or The Desire of Ages...

[Targaryen]

Actually it depends on which person you are speaking to in Rome, and which source you are reading from them. It is a Jesuit systematically formulated doctrine, not meant to clarify anything, but simply misdirect one from its own identification -

"There has historically been general agreement with non-preterists that the first systematic preterist exposition of prophecy was written by the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar during the Counter Reformation." [Link]
​

Luis De Alcasar - [Link]

The history is clearly detailed here and documented - [Link]

The Greek Antiochus Epiphanes IV and Roman Emperor Nero [etc] do not fit the prophecies in numerous ways, and fall far short.

Rome teaches both Preterism [Antiochus IV and Nero] and Futurism [along with Amillennialism], all of which are not merely contradictory to one another, but also false, and incongruent with Scriptural prophecy and history.

Rome [Papacy] thought to change "times and laws", and those times are not merely God's chosen days, but also the prophecies dealing with time. Rome seeks to redirect all attention from its identification in Prophecy.

Wheras the SDA follow in the footsteps of the old Millerite church, y'know. the Second Coming was to occur in 1843.

Yeah, that didn't happen either...nor any of other "prophecies" concerning the Second Coming since then from the groups influenced by the Millerite doctrine, like the SDA church.

Funny that.

 

[Shiny Gospel Shoes]

Wheras the SDA follow in the footsteps of the old Millerite church, y'know. the Second Coming was to occur in 1843.

Yeah, that didn't happen either...nor any of other "prophecies" concerning the Second Coming since then from the groups influenced by the Millerite doctrine, like the SDA church.

Funny that.

Incorrect. We "follow the Lamb withersoever he goeth", and that includes having understanding of His movements in heaven above. We can hear the bells of the High Priest in his movement.

Miller misunderstood what it mean in Daniel to "cleanse the Sanctuary" and thought [mistakenly] that the "sanctuary' was the earth. Yet, no critic in his day caught this either, neither understood it. Another mistake of Miller was in the exact starting date for the beginning of the 2300, but he worked with what he had at the time. Light grew and increased and more historical documentation clarified the beginning date. It is solid, untouchable [457 BC] from numerous sources and methods of verification. Thus the shift from 1843 to 1844. The date is correct, but his first misunderstanding still remained. Thus it led to disappointment.

This was in fulfillment of Revelation 10, in the "bitter" disappointment, to be followed by further "prophesy[ing]"... which later appears in Revelation 14.

But we, as Seventh-day Adventists are not disappointed, but do rejoice in such perfect chain of historical truth.

What the majority of Christianity misunderstands is not only the events of the Cross, but the plan of salvation as it was given to man, even in symbol/type in the Sanctuary itself, which was patterned after the True Heavenly one. See Hebrews, etc.

 

[Targaryen]

Incorrect. We "follow the Lamb withersoever he goeth", and that includes having understanding of His movements in heaven above. We can hear the bells of the High Priest in his movement.

Miller misunderstood what it mean in Daniel to "cleanse the Sanctuary" and thought [mistakenly] that the "sanctuary' was the earth. Yet, no critic in his day caught this either, neither understood it. Another mistake of Miller was in the exact starting date for the beginning of the 2300, but he worked with what he had at the time. Light grew and increased and more historical documentation clarified the beginning date. It is solid, untouchable [457 BC] from numerous sources and methods of verification. Thus the shift from 1843 to 1844. The date is correct, but his first misunderstanding still remained. Thus it led to disappointment.

This was in fulfillment of Revelation 10, in the "bitter" disappointment, to be followed by further "prophesy[ing]"... which later appears in Revelation 14.

But we, as Seventh-day Adventists are not disappointed, but do rejoice in such perfect chain of historical truth.

What the majority of Christianity misunderstands is not only the events of the Cross, but the plan of salvation as it was given to man, even in symbol/type in the Sanctuary itself, which was patterned after the True Heavenly one. See Hebrews, etc.

An apologia rather then acknowledging fact.

How like you.

 

[BobRyan]

SDAs are not Millerites and Protestants are not Catholics and Christians are not Jews.

Thus protestants do not apologize for Catholics and SDAs do not apologize for Millerites, and Christians do not apologize for Jews.

obviously.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Yep, we've been in the end times since the day of Pentecost. The signs have always been there.

That is not true according to the Bible.

in Dan 8 the 2300 year timeline given there - points to what Daniel says is "the time of the end".

That did not expire until many centuries after Pentecost.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yep, we've been in the end times since the day of Pentecost. The signs have always been there.

That is not true according to the Bible.

in Dan 8 the 2300 year timeline given there - points to what Daniel says is "the time of the end".

That did not expire until many centuries after Pentecost.

in Christ,

Bob

In Daniel chapter eight 2,300 evenings and mornings is mentioned not 2,300 years.

Daniel 8:14 RSV

(14) And he said to him, "For two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state."​

 

[BobRyan]

In Daniel chapter eight 2,300 evenings and mornings is mentioned not 2,300 years.

Daniel 8:14 RSV

(14) And he said to him, "For two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state."​

Prophetic day for year timeline is used in the book of Daniel when dealing with nations.

In Dan 9 "70 weeks" (490 days) 490 years is given as the time line from the Jews starting with the decree in the book of Ezra to restore and rebuild the temple and Jerusalem (457 B.C.). The 69 weeks (483 years) ends at the time of the ministry of Christ - his Baptism (27 A.D.).

The last week - the last 7 years includes the ministry of Christ starting in 27 A.D. his death 3.5 years later and then finally the stoning of Stephen in 34 A.D. which is the 490 years (70 weeks of Dan 9) completed.


In Dan 8 the 2300 days - are 2300 years that also start from that same 457 B.C. point in time (during the domination period of the Medes and the Persians according to Dan 8)

In Dan 7 the 1260 days is 1260 years given as (times (2x360) Time (1x360) and half a time (180) ) that begins after the fall of the pagan Roman empire (the fall of the fourth beast in Dan 7) --- points to the dark ages of persecution of the saints.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

Prophetic day for year timeline is used in the book of Daniel when dealing with nations.

Daniel chapter eight verse fourteen mentions 2,300 evenings and mornings, it does not mention 2,300 years or even 2,300 "prophetic day-for-year days" it says evenings and mornings.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Daniel chapter eight verse fourteen mentions 2,300 evenings and mornings, it does not mention 2,300 years or even 2,300 "prophetic day-for-year days" it says evenings and mornings.

Yep. And 2300 evenings and mornings later the temple was restored.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

SDAs are not Millerites and Protestants are not Catholics and Christians are not Jews.

Thus protestants do not apologize for Catholics and SDAs do not apologize for Millerites, and Christians do not apologize for Jews.

obviously.

in Christ,

Bob

Nope. Not any more. He failed to be a true prophet so they needed a new one. She's just a bit smarter. She didn't pick a date. But nothing she's predicted has come to pass either. unless you care to be vague like those following those folk with the hand signs out front of their homes.

Being non-specific is an old con.

 

[Targaryen]

Nope. Not any more. He failed to be a true prophet so they needed a new one. She's just a bit smarter. She didn't pick a date. But nothing she's predicted has come to pass either. unless you care to be vague like those following those folk with the hand signs out front of their homes.

Being non-specific is an old con.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Prophetic day for year timeline is used in the book of Daniel when dealing with nations.

Daniel chapter eight verse fourteen mentions 2,300 evenings and mornings, it does not mention 2,300 years or even 2,300 "prophetic day-for-year days" it says evenings and mornings.

Yep. And 2300 evenings and mornings later the temple was restored.

Yes, that about how long it took. about six years and four months.

This is the guy who did it, set up the abomination-causing-desolation, and desecrating the temple and robbing its treasures.

His name is Antiochus IV Epiphanes
Born in 215 BC died 163 BC, reigned as Selucid emperor/king from 175 BC until 163 BC.

Here's how the events played out in history.

• 1 Maccabees 1:20-25 KJV (20) And after that Antiochus had smitten Egypt, he returned again in the hundred forty and third year, and went up against Israel and Jerusalem with a great multitude, (21) And entered proudly into the sanctuary, and took away the golden altar, and the candlestick of light, and all the vessels thereof, (22) And the table of the shewbread, and the pouring vessels, and the vials, and the censers of gold, and the veil, and the crown, and the golden ornaments that were before the temple, all which he pulled off. (23) He took also the silver and the gold, and the precious vessels: also he took the hidden treasures which he found. (24) And when he had taken all away, he went into his own land, having made a great massacre, and spoken very proudly. (25) Therefore there was a great mourning in Israel, in every place where they were;
  
  The above fulfils Daniel 11:24-28​
• 1 Maccabees 1:40-45 KJV (40) As had been her glory, so was her dishonour increased, and her excellency was turned into mourning. (41) Moreover king Antiochus wrote to his whole kingdom, that all should be one people, (42) And every one should leave his laws: so all the heathen agreed according to the commandment of the king. (43) Yea, many also of the Israelites consented to his religion, and sacrificed unto idols, and profaned the sabbath. (44) For the king had sent letters by messengers unto Jerusalem and the cities of Juda that they should follow the strange laws of the land, (45) And forbid burnt offerings, and sacrifice, and drink offerings, in the temple; and that they should profane the sabbaths and festival days:
  ... (54) Now the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and fifth year, they set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar, and builded idol altars throughout the cities of Juda on every side; (55) And burnt incense at the doors of their houses, and in the streets.
  
  The above fulfils Daniel 11:31​

These things happened in 168 BC.

Here's a picture of the event

And below is a a picture of the kind of idol set up in the temple in Jerusalem, the abomination that causes desolation.

So we have this summary:

In 168 B.C.E. or 169 B.C.E. Antiochus marched to Jerusalem, slew Jason (last of the Zadokite High Priests) and dedicated the Temple to Zeus, erecting an image of Zeus in his own likeness on the altar, and, according to some sources, sacrificed a pig in the Temple. This is known to Jews as the ‘great desecration’ or ‘abomination of desecration’ (from Daniel 11: 31 & 12: 11).​

-- New World Encyclopedia article on Antiochus IV Epiphanes​

 

[Shiny Gospel Shoes]

Yep. And 2300 evenings and mornings later the temple was restored.

Actually, mathematically, it [the literal temple on Mt. Moriah] wasn't, not by any historical standards, nor Biblical, nor apocryphal ones. Go on, if you will, or think otherwise, demonstrate the math, and then let us turn to actual history and its sources, such as the Scripture for one, see it cannot hold.

Adventist Defense League

Next, we can take a look at the attributes of this so-called antiochus Epiphanes IV, and see him fall far short of the criteron given in all of Daniel.

Please bring the "Catholic" 'deutero-canon' and let us now compare history and scripture.

The problem is, the Questions [plural] of vs 13 begins with...

[vs 13] "How long the vision..."

Thus the answer to this is found in vs 14...

[vs 14] "... unto two thousand three hundred days*; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

*days is the meaning, since not only does vs 26 reveals the 2,300 evening-mornings to be so many "days", and as well as see Genesis where evening, followed by morning = 1 day, but this is not all, since it reveals in vs 26, that it concerns the whole length of "the vision", which began with Medo-Persia, and goes through the reign of Greece, into Rome, past Rome's division, to Papal Rome and past the wound of the Papacy ...

The other portions/questions of vs 13, "how long ... the daily", and "how long ... the transgression of desolation to give both...", are not immediately answered in Chapter 8, but given in Daniel 11 and 12, being 1,260, and 1290, finishing up the conclusion of the 2,300 with the ending of the 1335.

The "vision" is found to begin with Medo-Persia...

Daniel 8:1,2, etc. "a vision", "I saw in a vision", vs 3 "a ram which had two horns", and this is Medo-Persia, vs 20, "The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia."

How then do you explain that the vision begins from Medo-Persian dynasty and thus the 2,300 begins its counting from there?

Furthermore, the entirety of Gabriel's explanation of the "vision" of Daniel 8, encompasses far more than the Medo-Persian and Greecian empires. Go to vs 23 "fierce countenance", and compare it to Deuteronomy 28:50, which not only applied to Babylon, it also applied to its anti-type, Pagan Rome. Numerous ways to demonstrate this, and there is a greater anti-type yet still... in Papal Rome, for again compare vs 23 in the "dark sentences", then consider Psalms 78:2; Proverbs 1:6, etc. It would be a power utilizing the parables/symbolism of Scripture.

Additionally, how do you explain Daniel 9 "determined" 70 weeks [490], which are cut from the 2,300 "vision" [Daniel 8:1,2,etc and 9:23,24] and still apply them to Christ? Even Daniel 9:25, reveals that the "commandment" to restore Jerusalem/Temple went forth in the era of Medo-Persia, even as Ezra confirms.

Further, these things in dealing with the "vision", of which the 2300 are connected, we see that the Ram is symbolic, the Horns symbolic, the He-Goat symbolic, the 4 horns symbolic, etc. Thus the time frame of 2300 evening-mornings for the whole "vision" is also symbolical of more than simple days, and hence a symbolic day = 1 literal year [Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6, etc, etc], but more than this the very context of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, show up in Daniel 9, which references Daniel 8, and further Daniel 11-12, greatly expound Daniel 8, also beginning with Medo-Persia, which is the kingdom of which the "vision" of Daniel 8, began, and of which the 2300 time span begins and deals with throughout.

Moreso, the language of the "vision" is Sanctuary and Day of Atonement language, dealing with Ram and He-goat, and since the vision extends beyond the Cross, it is no longer an earthly day of atonement... but an Heavenly one... Christ Jesus fulfilling those typological feast in the proper order...

Christ the Lamb chosen... 3 1/2 ...
Christ the Lamb Sacrificed ... Passover
Christ without sin ... Unleavened
Christ the Resurrected ... Wavesheaf/Firstfruits
Christ anointed as HighPriest in Heaven [Psalms 133:1-3; Acts 1-3; Rev 5:6, etc]... Pentecost
... long extended summer ...
Christ announcing of Judgment to come ... Trumpets
Christ moves in he Heavens, to do the final closing work of the High Priest ... Atonement [which is now]...

[Those which say the Day of Atonement happened at the Cross, do not know their Scripture... ... Christ Jesus was not become High Priest yet at the Cross, neither at the ascension from Olivet ... for there were not yet "12"... Read Acts 1 carefully, and see what the Apostles needed to do to fulfill Scripture in following Christ by faith into the Heavenly Sanctuary]

... then Tabernacles to come...


If you think that only Seventh-day Adventists believe the 2300 were years, you may desire to reconsider, upon the evidences in the literature; for example:

Church of Ireland; Irish Clergyman and Scientific Writer:

William Hales (AD 8 April 1747 – AD 30 January 1831) on Daniel 7:25, 8:14, 9:24:

Daniel 7:25, 8:14, 9:24:

“... [page 11] 3. If now we count forward ... the prophetic division of the 1260 years ... and included perhaps in that specified by Daniel VIII, 13-14, as of consisting of "2300 [page 11-12] prophetic days, or years," will be closed; supposing it to commence with Daniel's "70 prophetic weeks," or 490 years ...

... And according to the still more sagacious conjecture, of the learned and worthy Layman - (and Irishman too, were I at liberty to divulge his name) - in a Comment on the Revelation, 8vo, 1787, Payne, reckoning the 70 weeks the former branch of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days - and the latter 2300 - 490 = 1810 ...”

“... [page 76] (at the end of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days, Dan. VIII. 14.) ...”

“... [page 145] and the commencement of Daniel's 70 weeks, (forming the first branch of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days, VIII. 14.) ...”

“... [page 199] the amazing commentary, as it is the further illustration of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days in the preceeding chapter, Dan. VIII. ...”

“... [page 206] the assumed commencement of the 70 weeks, and also of the grand prophetic period of 2300 days ...”

“... [page 207] 26. And after the sixty and two weeks, before specified, as the largest division of the 70, was the Anointed [Leader] "cut off" judicially, by an iniquitous sentence, in the midst of the one week, which formed the third and last division, and began with our Lord's Baptism, about AD 27 - "When he was beginning to be thirty years of age," and commenced his mission, which lasted three years and half until his crucifixion, about AD 31.

27. During this one week, which ended about AD 34, (about the martyrdom of Stephan,) a new covenant was established with many of the Jews, of every class; in the midst of which the Temple sacrifice was virtually abrogated by the all-sufficient sacrifice of the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the [repentant and believing] world. ...”

“... [page 259]
Grand Prophetic Period of 2300 days - 149
First Division, 70 Weeks, or 490 years - 200
The 7 Weeks - - - - - 205
62 Weeks - - - - - - 207
1 Weeks - - - - - 207,208
Second Division, 1810 Years - - - .ib.
1260 Days (Note a) - - - -8,63
1290 Days - - - - - 34
1335 Days - - - - - 35 ...” [The Inspector, or Select Literary Intelligence for the Vulgar; AD 1798 … [select pages], written in 1799] - The inspector, or Select literary intelligence: for the vulgar A.D. 1798 ... - William Hales - Google Books

​

Seventh-day Adventists are standing upon the sure Foundation, which cannot be moved, for it is founded upon the Rock, Christ Jesus, rather than the 'romanized peter'.

All which cannot see the Heavenly, is because their faith is focused upon an earthly work of priests/highpriests here, on earth, where the Dragon's worship is [Rev 12]...

 

[Mama Kidogo]

<Sniped for brevity>

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/INDENT]Seventh-day Adventists are standing upon the sure Foundation, which cannot be moved, for it is founded upon the Rock, Christ Jesus, rather than the 'romanized peter'.

Which Christ Jesus? The same one Miller (the Adventist's true foundation)lied about? Adventism 2.0 is still Miller's invention. Just refined because of the indefensible major blunder of being found out.

 

[Targaryen]

Which Christ Jesus? The same one Miller (the Adventist's true foundation)lied about? Adventism 2.0 is still Miller's invention. Just refined because of the indefensible major blunder of being found out.

 

[Harbingr]

There's some things about Ellen White which cause me to outright not want anything to do with SDA, because it's not just about the Sabbath.

For example, she believed that people who never got the chance to know God would neither go to Heaven or Hell, but would simply die.

That's completely contrary to the immortality of the human soul. She had obviously never heard of Purgatory, having lived in a Protestant dominant society, and so everything she taught was within the confines of already heretical belief.

She's nothing more then the epitome of protestant propaganda and proneness to divide. It doesn't help that she was black and out of the slave era either, who married a white Christian man- it puts motives into inquiry.

 

[Targaryen]

That's completely contrary to the immortality of the human soul. She had obviously never heard of Purgatory, having lived in a Protestant dominant society, and so everything she taught was within the confines of already heretical belief.

You started off promising, then you turn into yet another tinhater, this time of the catholic variety when you added those words thus highlighted.

You and SGS have something in common...you both can't put down the tinfoil and deal in logical fact.

 

[Albion]

There's some things about Ellen White which cause me to outright not want anything to do with SDA, because it's not just about the Sabbath.

For example, she believed that people who never got the chance to know God would neither go to Heaven or Hell, but would simply die.

That's completely contrary to the immortality of the human soul. She had obviously never heard of Purgatory, having lived in a Protestant dominant society, and so everything she taught was within the confines of already heretical belief.

That's an absurd conclusion. There have always been plenty of Catholics in the USA--which, last time I checked, was where she lived--and, next to the Papacy, Purgatory is probably the Catholic doctrine best recognized (if not always understood) by Protestants.

It doesn't help that she was black and out of the slave era

Ellen G. White was white, by the way, not black.

 

[BobRyan]

Prophetic day for year timeline is used in the book of Daniel when dealing with nations.

In Dan 9 "70 weeks" (490 days) 490 years is given as the time line from the Jews starting with the decree in the book of Ezra to restore and rebuild the temple and Jerusalem (457 B.C.). The 69 weeks (483 years) ends at the time of the ministry of Christ - his Baptism (27 A.D.).

The last week - the last 7 years includes the ministry of Christ starting in 27 A.D. his death 3.5 years later and then finally the stoning of Stephen in 34 A.D. which is the 490 years (70 weeks of Dan 9) completed.


In Dan 8 the 2300 days - are 2300 years that also start from that same 457 B.C. point in time (during the domination period of the Medes and the Persians according to Dan 8)

In Dan 7 the 1260 days is 1260 years given as (times (2x360) Time (1x360) and half a time (180) ) that begins after the fall of the pagan Roman empire (the fall of the fourth beast in Dan 7) --- points to the dark ages of persecution of the saints.

Daniel chapter eight verse fourteen mentions 2,300 evenings and mornings, it does not mention 2,300 years or even 2,300 "prophetic day-for-year days" it says evenings and mornings.

Dan 9 mentions 70 seeks (70 weeks of years - 490 years) as almost all Christian scholarship admits.

So it is prophetic days - where each day stands for a year.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

There's some things about Ellen White which cause me to outright not want anything to do with SDA, because it's not just about the Sabbath.

For example, she believed that people who never got the chance to know God would neither go to Heaven or Hell, .

In "real life" she taught that some of those who never hear the name of Jesus -- will first hear it in heaven - because they are among those in Rom 2:13-16 who followed the leading of the Holy Spirit - without knowing the technical details of the story.

In "real life' she taught that others would go to hell - who did not know of the Gospel - because they like those in Luke 12 - still chose evil even though only accountable for a small amount of light.

Details matter.

in Christ,

Bob