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How many have actually read The Great Controversy or The Desire of Ages...

Mama Kidogo

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Well, look. There is no sense dodging the manure piles of the history of the RCC. It really is a huge pile with a little truth shoved in around the edges in the sights of many believers. NOTHING PERSONAL RCC members. You weren't there. You didn't do it. I still think you're saved anyway...

but history inclusive of all the churchES is a history of sinners.

There is no requirement of past perfections of sinners as that obviously didn't happen.

But to say that history is holy and infallible is an open assault to the senses.

Holy and infallible is a lie based on the reality of actions. We may believe in a HOLY church but that is as a future HOPE. None of us have yet put on the righteousness of Christ other than as wishful thinking.

We are all equal opportunity sinners with an equal opportunity bloody and sinning history.

The SDA isn't exempt either. When any sect of sinners is around for a shorter time period they just don't have much to show for themselves.

Give 'em a little time rope and they'd show up for who they are regardless just like everyone else.

Christian idealism: FAIL

s

I think if there were such manure piles they've dried to dust by now. can you or should you take the sins of your ancestors upon yourself/ Maybe we should dig up these sinners and stone them.
 
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squint

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I think if there were such manure piles they've dried to dust by now. can you or should you take the sins of your ancestors upon yourself/ Maybe we should dig up these sinners and stone them.

Or maybe we should all just quit whitewashing reality?
 
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BobRyan

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I have pointed to a united Christian POV in my post about Syria and Iraq and I have urged that the RCC play a positive role in helping the Muslims find their way out of the dark ages style "extermination of heretics".

Why do a few on this board find the need to defend this or that extermination program be it in the dark ages or not?

Why not just repudiate them all - and find ways to help various religions out of them when they seem to be stuck in that mode?
 
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BobRyan

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I think if there were such manure piles they've dried to dust by now. can you or should you take the sins of your ancestors upon yourself/ Maybe we should dig up these sinners and stone them.

Better yet - learn from the lessons of the past - admit to things that did not work well - help the Muslims see the light in doing that sort of thing.

Turn lemons into lemon aide

Or... circle the wagons around the dark ages -- as if that is the helpful thing to do.
 
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Tzaousios

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The extermination of heretics by members of Islam in Syria and Iraq is every bit the bad thing that the world sees it as. Matters not if such exterminations are declared to be infallible by their magisterium.
I did that?

In my life time?

Do you have a quote of it??

Something from me in that regard -- a conspiracy by the Catholic Magisterium to get Muslims in Syria to kill Christians??

Quote please...

My original statement about the failure to acknowledge the plight of Middle Eastern Christians was to Shiny Gospel Shoes. Later you come in with the above quote which seeks to link (however tenuously) the plight of those Christians with former decisions made by the Catholic Magisterium.
 
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I have pointed to a united Christian POV in my post about Syria and Iraq and I have urged that the RCC play a positive role in helping the Muslims find their way out of the dark ages style "extermination of heretics".

Why do a few on this board find the need to defend this or that extermination program be it in the dark ages or not?

Why not just repudiate them all - and find ways to help various religions out of them when they seem to be stuck in that mode?
Why do you keep bringing up the RCC and the so called "dark ages"? And you're ridiculous generalization about the "Muslims" needing help is not only offensive, but completely un true. ISIS is rejected by the majority of Muslims and is a fanatical hate group.
 
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Tzaousios

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It is fine with me if you are confused about what everyone knows regarding the dark ages.

I am not trying to pull you into the 21st century in that regard.... but for the rest of us...well let's just say that the supposedly "infallible" LATERAN IV command to "exterminate heretics" gets 'noticed'.

Because -- details matter.

Indeed, details do matter, and you have not provided any concerning your use of the term "dark ages" to describe a particular historical time period. Rather, you are using it as a pejorative term to describe the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages.
 
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Tzaousios

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Or... circle the wagons around the dark ages -- as if that is the helpful thing to do.

The only ones who are circling the wagons around the term "dark ages" are you and your SDA compatriots who use the term over and over again in a pejorative manner.

It-wasnt-called.jpg
 
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Mama Kidogo

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Or maybe we should all just quit whitewashing reality?
Whitewashing reality? Today is reality. History is an account of the past.

What someone did centuries ago is not today's reality.

there is a very nice thing about being a Christian. All things become new. My past is gone if i have repented and been forgiven. It's not up to anyone except God to know if I've done just that. I don't know if certain pontiffs repented. If they did we may be playing the devil's advocate as the sin was not against us personally.
Should I require penance given to me for something not done directly to me? Are there catholics posting here who have burned you at the state (I'd better qualify that with the word literally^_^)?
And what of forgiveness? Holding a grudge does no real harm to a perpetrator. It can wreck havoc on the grudge holder.
 
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BobRyan

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Whitewashing reality? Today is reality. History is an account of the past.

Indeed and in the very recent past some Muslims in Syria and Iraq have been behaving badly.

Hopefully they will not choose to circle the wagons around that history and declare it infallible.

What someone did centuries ago is not today's reality.

Turns out - what someone did in the past - forms the history for today and we can all learn from it - most hopefully the Muslims in Iraq and Syria.

But it would be nice if the RCC could demonstrate that they learned from their own dark ages activity - and can show the Muslims how to leave it behind them.


there is a very nice thing about being a Christian. All things become new. My past is gone if i have repented and been forgiven.

If you were a car thief in the past - you repented and left that profession -- then we find another car thief - perhaps they could learn from your experience on how to leave that behind them.

or drugs ... or some form of violent behavior etc.

Those who escape - show others how it is done.

Or they circle the wagons around the prior history and defend it as infallible - as if that will help those who currently struggle in that regard.


Pick one.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Mama Kidogo

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Better yet - learn from the lessons of the past - admit to things that did not work well - help the Muslims see the light in doing that sort of thing.

Turn lemons into lemon aide

Or... circle the wagons around the dark ages -- as if that is the helpful thing to do.

There you go. You have been quoted.


There is nothing wrong with learning from mistakes. There is something wrong with not letting go of the past and trying to make it today's reality.

So seeing we all have sinned, why do we put on the Catholic what we are not willing to do our self? If you think a Muslim can learn from past mistakes, go find a Radical Sunni Muslim and tell him/her all about your past mistakes and test that theory..
 
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BobRyan

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Originally Posted by BobRyan
Better yet - learn from the lessons of the past - admit to things that did not work well - help the Muslims see the light in doing that sort of thing.

Turn lemons into lemon aide

Or... circle the wagons around the dark ages -- as if that is the helpful thing to do.

There you go. You have been quoted.


There is nothing wrong with learning from mistakes.

Thanks - and i appreciate the quote. And I agree there is nothing wrong from learning from the mistakes of the past.

The Holocost museums and memorials are not "ginning up hate for Germans" the way some have spun the idea of memorials and museums marking a tragic point in the past and providing lessons to be remembered in the present.



There is something wrong with not letting go of the past and trying to make it today's reality.

Having those memorials and museums makes it "today' reality" only in that it reminds us of what not to do.


So seeing we all have sinned, why do we put on the Catholic what we are not willing to do our self?

Step 1. declare a past mistake - not to be infallibly correct.

Step 2 - declare that a past mistake was indeed a mistake.

Step 3 - when possible if you see someone else falling into a similar mistake - share your testimony help them to leave it behind them.

That is what "we are willing to do ourselves".

I think everyone here can see that.



If you think a Muslim can learn from past mistakes, go find a Radical Sunni Muslim and tell him/her all about your past mistakes and test that theory..

If I had a "infallible to exterminate heretics" Christian group to point to - that then left that dark ages behind them and who admitted to it today - I would gladly point the Muslims to it.

I don't mind stating history as it was - and pointing out that some Christian groups did indeed struggle with this concept. Muslims seem to be sensitive on that bit of history - themselves.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Mama Kidogo

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Thanks - and i appreciate the quote. And I agree there is nothing wrong from learning from the mistakes of the past.

The Holocost museums and memorials are not "ginning up hate for Germans" the way some have spun the idea of memorials and museums marking a tragic point in the past and providing lessons to be remembered in the present.





Having those memorials and museums makes it "today' reality" only in that it reminds us of what not to do.




Step 1. declare a past mistake - not to be infallibly correct.

Step 2 - declare that a past mistake was indeed a mistake.

Step 3 - when possible if you see someone else falling into a similar mistake - share your testimony help them to leave it behind them.

That is what "we are willing to do ourselves".

I think everyone here can see that.





If I had a "infallible to exterminate heretics" Christian group to point to - that then left that dark ages behind them and who admitted to it today - I would gladly point the Muslims to it.

I don't mind stating history as it was - and pointing out that some Christian groups did indeed struggle with this concept. Muslims seem to be sensitive on that bit of history - themselves.

in Christ,

Bob

Let us put the sock on the other foot seeing it fits both.

1. Renounce EW .
2. Renounce annihilation as it's heresy.
3. Renounce soul sleep and eat more pork.
4. Stop believing EW is God*

Sound a bit silly when I put it that way. I've just asked you to do what your asking the See of Rome to do. I used the * for the one you don't even believe but some perceive that you do. Kinda like what you do with the Catholic even when they tell you it's not their belief.

But guess what? I'm not asking you to really do 1,2 or 3 and I know 4 is a misconception people have.This was just a golden rule parable.
 
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BobRyan

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Originally Posted by BobRyan
The extermination of heretics by members of Islam in Syria and Iraq is every bit the bad thing that the world sees it as. Matters not if such exterminations are declared to be infallible by their magisterium.

We can be thankful that the dark ages are over for Christianity and pray that Islam also chooses to leave them behind someday soon.

We can be thankful that Miriam was freed from Sudan.

The Catholic church could really help the members of Islam on this one. They could talk about their own history of infallibly calling for the extermination of heretics - and then point to the idea that today they have grown out of that and into a more civilized form of Christianity.

We can continue to pray for the deliverance of the Christians in Syria and Iraq and Sudan and other Islam controlled countries.

(And we can pray that the Christians in Europe stop declaring the Bible to be myth, false and blind-faith evolutionism to be true, accurate, trustworthy -- because Islam will thrive in that environment and Christianity will just dwindle).

This isn't about Papal infallibility. It's about hate. It also has zip to do with evolution, or your perceived European bible dissing. It's Muslims (ignorant one's at that), killing Christians because they refuse to convert to a Prophet led movement.
I call them ignorant for a reason.

Isnt that how the Muslims view the Catholic crusades in the dark ages?

Your "bad when you do it - infallible when we did it" argument does not go as far as you may have at first supposed.

The point is that the RCC could be of great help to the Muslims on this point by showing how they were finally able to turn it around.
[/quote]


Thanks - and i appreciate the quote. And I agree there is nothing wrong from learning from the mistakes of the past.

The Holocost museums and memorials are not "ginning up hate for Germans" the way some have spun the idea of memorials and museums marking a tragic point in the past and providing lessons to be remembered in the present.


Having those memorials and museums makes it "today' reality" only in that it reminds us of what not to do.



Step 1. declare a past mistake - not to be infallibly correct.

Step 2 - declare that a past mistake was indeed a mistake.

Step 3 - when possible if you see someone else falling into a similar mistake - share your testimony help them to leave it behind them.

That is what "we are willing to do ourselves".

I think everyone here can see that.


If I had a "infallible to exterminate heretics" Christian group to point to - that then left that dark ages behind them and who admitted to it today - I would gladly point the Muslims to it.

I don't mind stating history as it was - and pointing out that some Christian groups did indeed struggle with this concept. Muslims seem to be sensitive on that bit of history - themselves.



Let us put the sock on the other foot seeing it fits both.

1. Renounce EW .
2. Renounce annihilation as it's heresy.

Renounce "or you will do what"?? ;)

The nice Christian Catholic - Martin Luther believed in that view of hell - and the RCC also called him a heretic, and they had some ideas as to what to do with Luther and those who followed him as it turns out.

But what I find instructive - is that you place the idea of you renouncing the infallible "exterminate heretics" of Lateran IV in the dark ages - along with my "renounce Ellen White" as if exterminating heretics is as near and dear to yous - reading the messages that God gave Ellen White - is to me.

Are you actually willing to equivocate on those two different points right after saying we should all condemn Muslims for trying to exterminate those who differ with their own religious views?

Really?

3. Renounce soul sleep
Jesus said "Lazarus is ASLEEP I go that I may wake him" John 11 - and you argue that I should give up on this - because I must be holding this statement from Christ about Lazarus - just as near and dear as you hold to the supposedly infallible "exterminate heretics" decree of LATERAN IV?

Why do there??

and eat more pork.
4. Stop believing EW is God*
You realize of course if you make stuff up like asking me to renounce eating pork and believing Ellen White "is god" -- I am more than happy to agree that the fiction you have is "gladly given up" since it never existed - are you then willing to go there with LATERAN IV??


Sound a bit silly when I put it that way.
Well just that last bit - since you were making it up.


I've just asked you to do what your asking the See of Rome to do.
So you mean they still hold the idea of "exterminating heretics" that near and dear?

I used the * for the one you don't even believe but some perceive that you do. Kinda like what you do with the Catholic even when they tell you it's not their belief.
Nothing would please me more than for all Catholics to admit they reject and condemn the LATERAN IV command to "exterminate heretics".

How often do you see that happening?


But guess what? I'm not asking you to really do 1,2 or 3 and I know 4 is a misconception people have.This was just a golden rule parable.
I am more than happy to investigate the equivalence idea you propose.

Which one do you view as truly equivalent.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Shiny Gospel Shoes

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The Great Controversy; Chapter 38 - The Final Warning

[Page 603]

“I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.” “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.” Revelation 18:1, 2, 4.

This scripture points forward to a time when the announcement of the fall of Babylon, as made by the second angel of Revelation 14 (verse 8), is to be repeated, with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the various organizations that constitute Babylon, since that message was first given, in the summer of 1844. A terrible condition of the religious world is here described. With every rejection of truth the minds of the people will become darker, their hearts more stubborn, until they are entrenched in an infidel hardihood. In defiance of the warnings which God has given, they will continue to trample upon one of the precepts of the Decalogue, until they are led to persecute those who hold it sacred. Christ is set at nought in the contempt placed upon His word and His people. As the teachings of spiritualism are accepted by the churches, the [Page 603-604] restraint imposed upon the carnal heart is removed, and the profession of religion will become a cloak to conceal the basest iniquity. A belief in spiritual manifestations opens the door to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, and thus the influence of evil angels will be felt in the churches.

Of Babylon, at the time brought to view in this prophecy, it is declared: “Her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.” Revelation 18:5. She has filled up the measure of her guilt, and destruction is about to fall upon her. But God still has a people in Babylon; and before the visitation of His judgments these faithful ones must be called out, that they partake not of her sins and “receive not of her plagues.” Hence the movement symbolized by the angel coming down from heaven, lightening the earth with his glory and crying mightily with a strong voice, announcing the sins of Babylon. In connection with his message the call is heard: “Come out of her, My people.” These announcements, uniting with the third angel’s message, constitute the final warning to be given to the inhabitants of the earth.

Fearful is the issue to which the world is to be brought. The powers of earth, uniting to war against the commandments of God, will decree that “all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond” (Revelation 13:16), shall conform to the customs of the church by the observance of the false sabbath. All who refuse compliance will be visited with civil penalties, and it will finally be declared that they are deserving of death. On the other hand, the law of God enjoining the Creator’s rest day demands obedience and threatens wrath against all who transgress its precepts.

With the issue thus clearly brought before him, whoever shall trample upon God’s law to obey a human enactment receives the mark of the beast; he accepts the sign of allegiance to the power which he chooses to obey instead of God. The warning from heaven is: “If any man worship the beast [Page 604-605] and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation.” Revelation 14:9, 10.

But not one is made to suffer the wrath of God until the truth has been brought home to his mind and conscience, and has been rejected. There are many who have never had an opportunity to hear the special truths for this time. The obligation of the fourth commandment has never been set before them in its true light. He who reads every heart and tries every motive will leave none who desire a knowledge of the truth, to be deceived as to the issues of the controversy. The decree is not to be urged upon the people blindly. Everyone is to have sufficient light to make his decision intelligently.

The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God’s law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God.

Heretofore those who presented the truths of the third angel’s message have often been regarded as mere alarmists. Their predictions that religious intolerance would gain control in the United States, that church and state would unite to persecute those who keep the commandments of God, have been pronounced groundless and absurd. It has been confidently declared that this land could never become other than what it has been—the defender of religious freedom. But [Page 605-606] as the question of enforcing Sunday observance is widely agitated, the event so long doubted and disbelieved is seen to be approaching, and the third message will produce an effect which it could not have had before.

In every generation God has sent His servants to rebuke sin, both in the world and in the church. But the people desire smooth things spoken to them, and the pure, unvarnished truth is not acceptable. Many reformers, in entering upon their work, determined to exercise great prudence in attacking the sins of the church and the nation. They hoped, by the example of a pure Christian life, to lead the people back to the doctrines of the Bible. But the Spirit of God came upon them as it came upon Elijah, moving him to rebuke the sins of a wicked king and an apostate people; they could not refrain from preaching the plain utterances of the Bible—doctrines which they had been reluctant to present. They were impelled to zealously declare the truth and the danger which threatened souls. The words which the Lord gave them they uttered, fearless of consequences, and the people were compelled to hear the warning.

Thus the message of the third angel will be proclaimed. As the time comes for it to be given with greatest power, the Lord will work through humble instruments, leading the minds of those who consecrate themselves to His service. The laborers will be qualified rather by the unction of His Spirit than by the training of literary institutions. Men of faith and prayer will be constrained to go forth with holy zeal, declaring the words which God gives them. The sins of Babylon will be laid open. The fearful results of enforcing the observances of the church by civil authority, the inroads of spiritualism, the stealthy but rapid progress of the papal power—all will be unmasked. By these solemn warnings the people will be stirred. Thousands upon thousands will listen who have never heard words like these. In amazement they [Page 606-607] hear the testimony that Babylon is the church, fallen because of her errors and sins, because of her rejection of the truth sent to her from heaven. As the people go to their former teachers with the eager inquiry, Are these things so? the ministers present fables, prophesy smooth things, to soothe their fears and quiet the awakened conscience. But since many refuse to be satisfied with the mere authority of men and demand a plain “Thus saith the Lord,” the popular ministry, like the Pharisees of old, filled with anger as their authority is questioned, will denounce the message as of Satan and stir up the sin-loving multitudes to revile and persecute those who proclaim it.

As the controversy extends into new fields and the minds of the people are called to God’s downtrodden law, Satan is astir. The power attending the message will only madden those who oppose it. The clergy will put forth almost superhuman efforts to shut away the light lest it should shine upon their flocks. By every means at their command they will endeavor to suppress the discussion of these vital questions. The church appeals to the strong arm of civil power, and, in this work, papists and Protestants unite. As the movement for Sunday enforcement becomes more bold and decided, the law will be invoked against commandment keepers. They will be threatened with fines and imprisonment, and some will be offered positions of influence, and other rewards and advantages, as inducements to renounce their faith. But their steadfast answer is: “Show us from the word of God our error”—the same plea that was made by Luther under similar circumstances. Those who are arraigned before the courts make a strong vindication of the truth, and some who hear them are led to take their stand to keep all the commandments of God. Thus light will be brought before thousands who otherwise would know nothing of these truths. ..."​
 
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squint

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The Great Controversy; Chapter 38 - The Final Warning

[Page 603]

“I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.” “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.” Revelation 18:1, 2, 4.

This scripture points forward to a time when the announcement of the fall of Babylon, as made by the second angel of Revelation 14 (verse 8), is to be repeated, with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the various organizations that constitute Babylon, since that message was first given, in the summer of 1844. A terrible condition of the religious world is here described. With every rejection of truth the minds of the people will become darker, their hearts more stubborn, until they are entrenched in an infidel hardihood. In defiance of the warnings which God has given, they will continue to trample upon one of the precepts of the Decalogue, until they are led to persecute those who hold it sacred. Christ is set at nought in the contempt placed upon His word and His people. As the teachings of spiritualism are accepted by the churches, the [Page 603-604] restraint imposed upon the carnal heart is removed, and the profession of religion will become a cloak to conceal the basest iniquity. A belief in spiritual manifestations opens the door to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, and thus the influence of evil angels will be felt in the churches.

Of Babylon, at the time brought to view in this prophecy, it is declared: “Her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.” Revelation 18:5. She has filled up the measure of her guilt, and destruction is about to fall upon her. But God still has a people in Babylon; and before the visitation of His judgments these faithful ones must be called out, that they partake not of her sins and “receive not of her plagues.” Hence the movement symbolized by the angel coming down from heaven, lightening the earth with his glory and crying mightily with a strong voice, announcing the sins of Babylon. In connection with his message the call is heard: “Come out of her, My people.” These announcements, uniting with the third angel’s message, constitute the final warning to be given to the inhabitants of the earth.

Fearful is the issue to which the world is to be brought. The powers of earth, uniting to war against the commandments of God, will decree that “all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond” (Revelation 13:16), shall conform to the customs of the church by the observance of the false sabbath. All who refuse compliance will be visited with civil penalties, and it will finally be declared that they are deserving of death. On the other hand, the law of God enjoining the Creator’s rest day demands obedience and threatens wrath against all who transgress its precepts.

With the issue thus clearly brought before him, whoever shall trample upon God’s law to obey a human enactment receives the mark of the beast; he accepts the sign of allegiance to the power which he chooses to obey instead of God. The warning from heaven is: “If any man worship the beast [Page 604-605] and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation.” Revelation 14:9, 10.

But not one is made to suffer the wrath of God until the truth has been brought home to his mind and conscience, and has been rejected. There are many who have never had an opportunity to hear the special truths for this time. The obligation of the fourth commandment has never been set before them in its true light. He who reads every heart and tries every motive will leave none who desire a knowledge of the truth, to be deceived as to the issues of the controversy. The decree is not to be urged upon the people blindly. Everyone is to have sufficient light to make his decision intelligently.

The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God’s law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God.

Heretofore those who presented the truths of the third angel’s message have often been regarded as mere alarmists. Their predictions that religious intolerance would gain control in the United States, that church and state would unite to persecute those who keep the commandments of God, have been pronounced groundless and absurd. It has been confidently declared that this land could never become other than what it has been—the defender of religious freedom. But [Page 605-606] as the question of enforcing Sunday observance is widely agitated, the event so long doubted and disbelieved is seen to be approaching, and the third message will produce an effect which it could not have had before.

In every generation God has sent His servants to rebuke sin, both in the world and in the church. But the people desire smooth things spoken to them, and the pure, unvarnished truth is not acceptable. Many reformers, in entering upon their work, determined to exercise great prudence in attacking the sins of the church and the nation. They hoped, by the example of a pure Christian life, to lead the people back to the doctrines of the Bible. But the Spirit of God came upon them as it came upon Elijah, moving him to rebuke the sins of a wicked king and an apostate people; they could not refrain from preaching the plain utterances of the Bible—doctrines which they had been reluctant to present. They were impelled to zealously declare the truth and the danger which threatened souls. The words which the Lord gave them they uttered, fearless of consequences, and the people were compelled to hear the warning.

Thus the message of the third angel will be proclaimed. As the time comes for it to be given with greatest power, the Lord will work through humble instruments, leading the minds of those who consecrate themselves to His service. The laborers will be qualified rather by the unction of His Spirit than by the training of literary institutions. Men of faith and prayer will be constrained to go forth with holy zeal, declaring the words which God gives them. The sins of Babylon will be laid open. The fearful results of enforcing the observances of the church by civil authority, the inroads of spiritualism, the stealthy but rapid progress of the papal power—all will be unmasked. By these solemn warnings the people will be stirred. Thousands upon thousands will listen who have never heard words like these. In amazement they [Page 606-607] hear the testimony that Babylon is the church, fallen because of her errors and sins, because of her rejection of the truth sent to her from heaven. As the people go to their former teachers with the eager inquiry, Are these things so? the ministers present fables, prophesy smooth things, to soothe their fears and quiet the awakened conscience. But since many refuse to be satisfied with the mere authority of men and demand a plain “Thus saith the Lord,” the popular ministry, like the Pharisees of old, filled with anger as their authority is questioned, will denounce the message as of Satan and stir up the sin-loving multitudes to revile and persecute those who proclaim it.

As the controversy extends into new fields and the minds of the people are called to God’s downtrodden law, Satan is astir. The power attending the message will only madden those who oppose it. The clergy will put forth almost superhuman efforts to shut away the light lest it should shine upon their flocks. By every means at their command they will endeavor to suppress the discussion of these vital questions. The church appeals to the strong arm of civil power, and, in this work, papists and Protestants unite. As the movement for Sunday enforcement becomes more bold and decided, the law will be invoked against commandment keepers. They will be threatened with fines and imprisonment, and some will be offered positions of influence, and other rewards and advantages, as inducements to renounce their faith. But their steadfast answer is: “Show us from the word of God our error”—the same plea that was made by Luther under similar circumstances. Those who are arraigned before the courts make a strong vindication of the truth, and some who hear them are led to take their stand to keep all the commandments of God. Thus light will be brought before thousands who otherwise would know nothing of these truths. ..."​

Ms. White rode a one trick threat pony.

Just for the record nobody is going to be declared a non-sinner for showing up in the pew on Saturday. Anyone who thinks that is their escape hatch has a serious honesty problem.
 
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Setyoufree

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Ms. White rode a one trick threat pony.

Just for the record nobody is going to be declared a non-sinner for showing up in the pew on Saturday. Anyone who thinks that is their escape hatch has a serious honesty problem.

Not that I buy into everything SDA, but I sure don't buy into one darn thing you say, Squint, because diminish the very Bible you claim.
 
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Shiny Gospel Shoes

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Ms. White rode a one trick threat pony.

Just for the record nobody is going to be declared a non-sinner for showing up in the pew on Saturday. Anyone who thinks that is their escape hatch has a serious honesty problem.
For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. Habakkuk 2:3

The word of God gives dire warning to anyone which mock the sent messengers of God:
"...there came forth two she bears out of the wood..."
Even as it is written:
"I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart..."
There is no safety in that day...
As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. Amos 5:19
No one wants to be there in that position. Yet, they will do as they please...
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 2 Timothy 3:8
 
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