How many Gentiles and Samaritans could have been saved if Jesus would have sent some disciples there?

[Hammster]

People are individuals - so I don't understand your distinction. Beyond that it is not "If what you said was true" - it is what scripture plainly states.

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (NIV)​

​

And yet

But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.”
— John 12:37-40

In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they would see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.’
— Matthew 13:14-15

And we have the example from the OP. These are not indicative of Jesus wanting all people saved.

 

[Hammster]

People are individuals - so I don't understand your distinction.

People are individuals. Groups are not.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

God can do things as He pleases, which is my point. The reason for the thread is because a lot of folks tell me that God loves everyone and wants all men saved, yet we see in scripture where Jesus doesn’t act that way. This is just one example. I can provide more.

Yes but i'm not sure what to say, you know the Bible well and i assume you may even have a verse to counter "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

But it may be true God has favorites but that is not to say He doesn't want everyone to be saved. i mean look at it if you were a parent. Even though it is frowned upon as a parent of 2 children (theoretically speaking) if you had a favorite you would still want the best for both children wouldn't you? If you though you are merely a human want good for both children how much more does God, despite the possibility of having favorites still would want everyone to be saved.

And if scripture says God wants all to be saved then He wants all to be saved, for i hope i don't have to show that scripture is true as that is part of the Nicene Creed that all CF Christian members agree to, and with that then the verse "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" is also true.

There is a distinction between having favorites and wanting people to perish

 

[John Mullally]

People are individuals. Groups are not.

Perplexing. Groups of individuals are individuals. Calvinist are constantly talking about the "Elect" group.

And yet

But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.”
— John 12:37-40

In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they would see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.’
— Matthew 13:14-15

And we have the example from the OP. These are not indicative of Jesus wanting all people saved.

It was not in God's timing that the Jews in Jesus's time receive him, as He had to be crucified. But after His resurrection, we see the following stated also in John 12.

John 12:31-32 ‘Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.​

 

[Hammster]

Yes but i'm not sure what to say, you know the Bible well and i assume you may even have a verse to counter "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

But it may be true God has favorites but that is not to say He doesn't want everyone to be saved. i mean look at it if you were a parent. Even though it is frowned upon as a parent of 2 children (theoretically speaking) if you had a favorite you would still want the best for both children wouldn't you? If you though you are merely a human want good for both children how much more does God, despite the possibility of having favorites still would want everyone to be saved.

And if scripture says God wants all to be saved then He wants all to be saved, for i hope i don't have to show that scripture is true as that is part of the Nicene Creed that all CF Christian members agree to, and with that then the verse "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" is also true.

There is a distinction between having favorites and wanting people to perish

Is there a context for “you” and “all” that could lead to a different understanding?

 

[Hammster]

Perplexing. Groups of individuals are individuals.

But your post was concerned with God waiting and getting big numbers saved. There was no concern in the way you presented it that He had love for anyone in particular. Just as long as He got a crowd.

It was not in God's timing that the Jews in Jesus's time receive him, as He had to be crucified. But after His resurrection, we see the following stated also in John 12.

John 12:31-32 ‘Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.​

Then you can’t say that God loves everyone the same and wants them all saved. There were Greeks who died between the time Jesus said this and when the gospel reached the Gentiles.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

Is there a context for “you” and “all” that could lead to a different understanding?

which verse are you referencing

 

[Hammster]

which verse are you referencing

This in particular

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

This in particular

i think when it says everyone to come to repentance that answers that God wants all to ask forgiveness and then be saved

 

[Hammster]

i think when it says everyone to come to repentance that answers that God wants all to ask forgiveness and then be saved

Who is the “you” in that verse?

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

Who is the “you” in that verse?

The person reading of course

 

[Hammster]

The person reading of course

No. It’s to the churches Peter wrote to. The you should be considered “you all”.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

No. It’s to the churches Peter wrote to. The you should be considered “you all”.

With that logic you could say the Bible is written only for the people alive when it was written.

But that doesn't make sense.

I could use verses that further support that scripture is God breathed and accomplishes God's purpose etc etc but if you won't even believe it is written for all to people to read then there's nothing further i can say.

The rest is left to The Holy Spirit to convict you on what is true.

 

[John Mullally]

But your post was concerned with God waiting and getting big numbers saved. There was no concern in the way you presented it that He had love for anyone in particular. Just as long as He got a crowd.

God could not have shown more love than giving His son (John 3:16) - why does it bother you that He gave Him for the whole world (1 Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2)?

There are many advantages in living under the New Covenant, which began after the resurrection.

Then you can’t say that God loves everyone the same and wants them all saved. There were Greeks who died between the time Jesus said this and when the gospel reached the Gentiles.

Per 1 Timothy 2:3-4, God desires all people be saved. I accept that.

Refer to Post 76 for more information before asking an endless stream of questions.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It’s death, then judgment. It’s not death, some second, third or fourth chance, then judgment.

You did not understand my point...

 

[Hammster]

With that logic you could say the Bible is written only for the people alive when it was written.

But that doesn't make sense.

I could use verses that further support that scripture is God breathed and accomplishes God's purpose etc etc but if you won't even believe it is written for all to people to read then there's nothing further i can say.

The rest is left to The Holy Spirit to convict you on what is true.

That’s not the logic. The logic is that we need to understand it as the author intended his audience to understand it. When Peter wrote this, it wasn’t written to a guy sitting in his living room in 2023.

Remember, it was written for us, not to us.

 

[Hammster]

God could not have shown more love than giving His son (John 3:16) - why does it bother you that He gave Him for the whole world (1 Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2)?

You aren’t addressing the argument.

There are many advantages in living under the New Covenant, which began after the resurrection.

Per 1 Timothy 2:3-4, God desires all people be saved. I accept that.

Refer to Post 76 for more information before asking an endless stream of questions.

Still not addressing the argument. If you aren’t going to, that’s fine. But I really wish that you would.

 

[Hammster]

You did not understand my point...

If that’s the case, then you’ll have to explain.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

If that’s the case, then you’ll have to explain.

already did, you need to read it again

 

[Hammster]

already did, you need to read it again

I did. And based on what you said, my response will have to stand.