How many Eves are there? (Clan Mothers)

[Jazer]

the maternal line has a common ancestor about 200,000 years ago, and the paternal line about 50,000-150,000 years ago. So, tell us, how does that "show that Adam and Eve in the Bible were real Historical people"? How do genetic markers prove that the characters of Adam and Eve, as described in the Bible, were real people? No fudging the details now, this is the very point of the thread.

When your looking at "50,000-150,000" years ago, you are looking at the A haplogroup. Now everyone knows that the Jewish people are going to share a common ancestor. What science tells us is that their most recent common ancestor lived 6,000 years ago. The Bible tells us Adam and Eve lived 6,000 years ago. The Bible and Science tells us that they lived in the middle east, the furtile crescent. So there are two correlations there. Now for a third confirmation science tells us that the J Haplogroup is the group that was the beginning of farming and the beginning of herding. Because they have been using the DNA to trace down the beginning of the farming revolution or the beginning of herding. After that there are many thousands of correlations between science and the Bible. You read in the Bible about the different metals. Science talks about the end of the stone age and the beginning of the Copper, Brass, Iron, Gold. We read about all of this in the Bible. Sheep and Goats are native to the Middle east, we read about this in the Bible. David for example herded the animals. Moses herded animals for a while and so on. For over 100 years archeology and been confirming that the Bible is true. Now in the last 10 years genetic DNA research is again confirming the Bible is true. Even the crops we read about in the Bible, grapes, olives and so on. They are all native to the Middle east. This confirms that there was indeed a "Eden". Although there were most likely many Edens in different places. Just like we now know there were many Eves in different places and the one in the Bible was not the first, actually she was the last. Making her the most recent Eve. To get back to the DNA all of the grapes, the crops, the animals. The DNA research shows that the Bible is accurate and true. But we already knew this from archeolgy that the Bible is a very archeology book. No other book has ever been found to be as accurate and dependable as the Bible. Of course that is why those books are collected together into one book. Because again and again they have been verified. Even when new science and new evidence comes along. Like DNA research today in our day and age.


For a Christian the fact that we are able to verify and prove as much as we can is plenty enough evidence for us. For atheists they just say it proves what it proves and it does not prove what it does not prove. So they base their faith not on science or the evidence, they base their hope on the lack of evidence and the things science can not show or prove is true. Not a very scientific approach actually. Which maybe why some people on this board will actually deny science and be a traitor to science in an vain effort to try and be an atheist and to deny the truth we read in our Bible. Clearly they are no friend of science and just want to use science for whatever evil they can get from it. Because everyone seems to agree that science can be used for good or evil. Now we can see who wants to use Science for Evil and who are willing to deny the truth. Although they have been laying pretty low lately and out of sight.

 

[Jazer]

Undoubtedly, and that's the marvellous thing about science. Nonetheless, the recent discoveries of Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam do not in any way support a literal (or even metaphorical) account of Genesis - and I'm still waiting for you to explain why you think otherwise.

Genesis is a big book, over 50 chapter. There are many thousands of places in Genesis that science can verify that Genesis is true. There is nothing in all of science that will falsify anything in Genesis. So do you want to put your faith in what we know to be true. Or do you put your faith in the unknown and what you can not verify. You give me zip, zero, nothing. The whole time we have been here you have offered no evidence no proof to back up your claim. I have given you scientific proof and evidence again and again and again and again to back up what I am saying and to show you the Bible is true.

 

[USincognito]

Sense the whole point of what we are talking about is to find the first food producer. What does your MRCA have to do with that? Perhaps if you could show us a mutation that happened to show up at the same time in the same place where man because a food producer. That is a farmer AND a herdsman. How can the theory of evolution explain both of those showing up at the same time and in the same place. To be more exact in the Jewish people that we read about in our Bible. Is it somehow just a coincidence that science now tells us that the people in the Bible were the first food producers. Compared to hunter gathers.

You need to read Guns, Germs and Steel. It will help you, a lot.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

When your looking at "50,000-150,000" years ago, you are looking at the A haplogroup. Now everyone knows that the Jewish people are going to share a common ancestor. What science tells us is that their most recent common ancestor lived 6,000 years ago. The Bible tells us Adam and Eve lived 6,000 years ago. The Bible and Science tells us that they lived in the middle east, the furtile crescent. So there are two correlations there.

Err, no, there's not.
What sources do you have for your claims that:
a) the Jewish people must share a single, common ancestor (is there no such thing as a Jewish convert, or interfaith marriage?),
b) science tells us that this Jewish ancestor lived 6000 years ago, and
c) science tells us Adam and Eve lived in the Middle-East in the fertile crescent?

Now for a third confirmation science tells us that the J Haplogroup is the group that was the beginning of farming and the beginning of herding. Because they have been using the DNA to trace down the beginning of the farming revolution or the beginning of herding.

The J Haplogroup is associated with the spread of Neolithic farming, not the dawn of it - that lies 20,000 years ago in Asia (mainly China) and Africa (mainly Egypt). Agriculture was not invented by two people, Adam and Eve, 6000 years ago.

After that there are many thousands of correlations between science and the Bible. You read in the Bible about the different metals. Science talks about the end of the stone age and the beginning of the Copper, Brass, Iron, Gold. We read about all of this in the Bible. Sheep and Goats are native to the Middle east, we read about this in the Bible. David for example herded the animals. Moses herded animals for a while and so on. For over 100 years archeology and been confirming that the Bible is true. Now in the last 10 years genetic DNA research is again confirming the Bible is true. Even the crops we read about in the Bible, grapes, olives and so on. They are all native to the Middle east.

No one says the Bible is wrong on every detail. Ultimately, however flawed it may be, it still documents Jewish history. Whatever plants and crops are native to the Middle East will likely be mentioned in the Jewish books - not because of any divine providence, but as a matter of sheer statistics. I have stated many times that the Bible is correct on a number of things - there really is a place called Egypt, there really were Pharaohs, etc - but, notably, these are all mundane. It is fallacious to infer the truth of one statement because of the truth of a second, unrelated statement, even if they are both written in the same book.

This confirms that there was indeed a "Eden". Although there were most likely many Edens in different places. Just like we now know there were many Eves in different places and the one in the Bible was not the first, actually she was the last. Making her the most recent Eve.

So, to keep the Genesis from falling apart, you're now inventing many Eves and Edens, and redefining 'Eve' to mean 'common maternal ancestor', rather than 'single, actual, living person'.

To get back to the DNA all of the grapes, the crops, the animals. The DNA research shows that the Bible is accurate and true. But we already knew this from archeolgy that the Bible is a very archeology book. No other book has ever been found to be as accurate and dependable as the Bible. Of course that is why those books are collected together into one book. Because again and again they have been verified. Even when new science and new evidence comes along. Like DNA research today in our day and age.

The DNA evidence only substantiates what we already knew - the Jews, and more generally the Arabs, are an ethnic group. It doesn't demonstrate the existence of a man and woman named Adam and Eve who lived in the Garden of Eden 6000 years ago.

For a Christian the fact that we are able to verify and prove as much as we can is plenty enough evidence for us. For atheists they just say it proves what it proves and it does not prove what it does not prove. So they base their faith not on science or the evidence, they base their hope on the lack of evidence and the things science can not show or prove is true. Not a very scientific approach actually.

Oh for... Really?

I can't believe this even needs to be clarified. What you're doing is saying "The mundane parts of this book are, largely, verified by independent evidence. So, therefore, all the crazy supernatural stuff is also completely and utterly true!". What we're doing is saying "OK, parts of the Bible are, as we've always known, based in whole or in part in truth - there really are places called Egypt, Bethlehem, etc - but that proves nothing more than it proves". It amazes me that you call this faith!

Imagine if I had a book filled with the most obvious and demonstrable facts, thousands and thousands of them. And, on the final page, I had written "Fact #144,000: Islam is the one true religion". I daresay you would turn around and say that the abundance of verified claims doesn't prove this final claim - and you'd be right. It's not faith, it's the epitome of logical thought. Proof by proxy is a logical fallacy, one you not only explicitly commit, but you also slam anyone who points out this fallacy as basing their conclusion on 'faith'.

I don't know how else to explain it. It's so staggeringly obvious that "it proves only what it proves" is both logical and fundamentally scientific. Science only takes evidence as far as it goes, and no further. You, on the other hand, take it much, much further - and yet somehow we are the ones who're unscientific.

 

[Loudmouth]

That does not matter, the only thing that is indicated is that Eve is a real person.

Evidence please. Mitochondrial MRCA's are not it.

Science does show us that not every living person today is decended from the Adam and Eve in the Bible.

Evidence please. Y-chromosome haplotype Adams are also not it.

There is no reason to believe they were NOT real Historical People that lived 6,000 years ago in the Middle East.

There is no evidence that they were real.

The Bottom line is the evidence shows us the Bible is true.

Please show us this evidence.