How many Eves are there? (Clan Mothers)

[Jazer]

Bryan Sykes talks about the Seven Daughters of Eve. That is just the Clan mothers that we find in Europe, including the Eve we read about in our Bible in the Garden of Eden. Now they are talking about there being 29 daughters of eve. Including 9 in just Japan alone. In China the tradition has always been that there are 9 clan mothers. Then if there are 9 in Europe and the Middle East then that would give you a total of 27 daughters of the Scientific Eve that came out of Africa. These are all historic women. So science does not only tell us about the Eve we read about in our Bible. Science and the theory of Evolution requires that there be a Historical Women that the people of Israel are descended from. Now Israel does not seem to be real big on DNA tests because people can be adopted into the family. Also they do accept converts.

Science & the theory of evolution requires the Hebrew people to have a Clan Mother. Then it is as clear as can be that this Historical Person is the one we read about in our Bible. It is absurd to say that the Historical Person that is the Clan mother for the Hebrew people is unknown when we fully know who she was. Science pretty well painted themselves into a corner on this one.

Of course we know that Abraham is the Clan Father for BOTH the Hebrews and for the Arab nations in the Middle East. That was never much of a question for anyone. So we know that the Arabs and the Hebrews descended from the Adam in the Bible that lived in the Garden of Eden. He was a food producer and his descendants as food producers were well able to feed themselves and live. So as a food producer you would expect Adam in Eden to have lots of descendants.

Well, ok, Adam did not have a lot of descendants. The Jews are the least of all people and the smallest clan. The main point is the Bible is true and science does more then just prove that the Bible is true. For their theory of evolution to work they require the Arab people and the Hebrew people to have a clan mother and a clan father that are historical people. Science does not require that they live at the same time. I am sure that someone will be sure to bring that up.

 

[No Time]

That can be proved? None, if you're not bothered about proof you can have as many as you like.

 

[Loudmouth]

Bryan Sykes talks about the Seven Daughters of Eve. That is just the Clan mothers that we find in Europe, including the Eve we read about in our Bible in the Garden of Eden. Now they are talking about there being 29 daughters of eve. Including 9 in just Japan alone. In China the tradition has always been that there are 9 clan mothers. Then if there are 9 in Europe and the Middle East then that would give you a total of 27 daughters of the Scientific Eve that came out of Africa.

No, that would be 27 MRCA's. These are not Eves as in a founding mother of the population under investigation. They are the most recent DIRECT COMMON ancestor. What you are ignoring are all of the indirect and uncommon ancestors that contributed DNA to the population. If we went back in time we would find that these Eves were just one of thousands of other women that lived during that time. You would see nothing special about them. They only became Eves well after their death as the other mitochondrial lineages from her female cohorts died off. MRCA's are produced by a process of elimination, not by a founding individual. Why do we keep having to go over this?

Science & the theory of evolution requires the Hebrew people to have a Clan Mother.

No, it doesn't. This is flatly untrue.

 

[Jazer]

If we went back in time we would find that these Eves were just one of thousands of other women that lived during that time.

Yep, it sure takes the wind of out the sail of the people that think the Eve in the Bible is the Mother of every living person today. Yet Science still confirms that the Story of Eve in the Bible COULD be a true story and Science does not in anyway falsify the Bible. With all this vast knowledge we have and the Bible still proves to be true and literal. Even if some of the popular interpretations of the Bible are no longer valid. Even if the traditions do not hold up as well as some people would like them to. But Jesus preached against traditions and told us to be careful.

Still the concept of Eve that is the Mother of every living person today is confirmed by Science. Only Scientific Eve is not the same Eve as we read about in our Bible that is the Mother of the Hebrew people today. The best selling Time Magazine was the cover showing Adam and Even and the DNA Scientific evidence for Adam and Eve.

In the end, during the tribulation there will be only 144,000 pure virgin Hebrews that will preach and represent God during the tribulation period. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. They are the only ones that will be required to be pure.

 

[Loudmouth]

Yet Science still confirms that the Story of Eve in the Bible COULD be a true story . . .

No, it doesn't. The diversity of the rest of the human genome requires multiple ancestors for the modern population, not just two. We carry DNA from those women who lived with mtDNA Eve. We carry DNA from the men who lived with Y-Adam. What we do not have is direct matrilineal line from us to those other women, or a direct patrilineal line from us to those other men. Instead, we have mtDNA lineages that hit an all male dead end, and Y-chromosome lineages that hita an all female dead end.

Do you understand this or not?

and Science does not in anyway falsify the Bible.

Since you interpret the Bible to mean whatever you want at any moment in time, this is really no big surprise.

 

[Jazer]

Why do we keep having to go over this?

All we are talking about is what Bryan Sykes said about the subject. Do you agree or disagree with him? Perhaps you are confused with the way I explain what he said. In that case go read for yourself what He says about this subject.

Science & the theory of evolution requires the Hebrew people to have a Clan Mother.

No, it doesn't. This is flatly untrue.

This is what makes them Hebrew. THE Hebrew people go by the mother, not the father. Your argument is with Bryan Sykes. He is the one that uses the term Clan Mother for what you call Most Recent Common Ancestor. You science people need to get your terms worked out among yourselves and quit blaming us. You do know that Bryan Sykes found DNA in the tooth of the 10,000 year old Cheddar Man. So you are messing with someone that has made a significant contribution to science. Just what exactly did you say your contribution was?

 

[Jazer]

Since you interpret the Bible to mean whatever you want at any moment in time, this is really no big surprise.

I am just pointing out to you where science proves that the Bible is true. At least you are not a traitor and you do not deny science. You just deny that the science proves the Bible to be true. Perhaps you really don't see it because you really have never read or studied the Bible to even know what the Bible says.

 

[AV1611VET]

So science does not only tell us about the Eve we read about in our Bible.

Science needs to keep its myopic nose out of the Bible; they've had plenty of time to verify It and can't.

I'm starting to get tired of that word, anyway.

If tomorrow they tell me they found Adam's bones, or the Ark of the Covenant, or the Tabernacle, or whatever -- I'd change the channel.

 

[Jazer]

Science needs to keep its myopic nose out of the Bible;

So you want to go on record to say you do not agree with Theistic Evolution?
Or perhaps you would say: Theistic Evolution can take a Hike

You did say you were a dispensationalist though didn't you?

 

[AV1611VET]

So you want to go on record to say you do not agree with Theistic Evolution?

No, sir.

It's not my intention to critique your faith --

You did say you were a dispensationalist though didn't you?

-- Definitely!

 

[Loudmouth]

All we are talking about is what Bryan Sykes said about the subject.

Can you please cite the peer reviewed research articles that Sykes has published on the subject?

This is what makes them Hebrew. THE Hebrew people go by the mother, not the father. Your argument is with Bryan Sykes. He is the one that uses the term Clan Mother for what you call Most Recent Common Ancestor.

If Sykes is claiming that these populations were founded by a single woman then Sykes is wrong. It is that simple. Somehow, I get the sense that this is not what he is claiming. Am I wrong?

You science people need to get your terms worked out among yourselves and quit blaming us.

Us? I thought you were shifting the blame to Sykes now.

You do know that Bryan Sykes found DNA in the tooth of the 10,000 year old Cheddar Man. So you are messing with someone that has made a significant contribution to science. Just what exactly did you say your contribution was?

Everyone in the field of genetics agrees that MRCA's are not produced by a single founder of a population. This includes the top scientists in the field. The evidence indicates that MRCA's for Y-haplotypes were men who were one man out of an entire population of men. They only became Y-haplotype Adam's well after their deaths, and this was due to pedigree collapse and lineage extinction.

Any population will produce an MRCA if it inbreeds long enough. It is unavoidable. A million years from now there may very well be a new Y-Adam, and he might be alive today.

 

[Loudmouth]

I am just pointing out to you where science proves that the Bible is true.

Where did that happen? How does finding an MRCA for middle eastern populations prove that the Bible is right? Please explain.

Perhaps you really don't see it because you really have never read or studied the Bible to even know what the Bible says.

I was part of a church for the first 22 years of my life. I know what the Bible says. I also know that MRCA's are not indicative of a single founder of a population.

 

[Jazer]

Where did that happen?

In the beginning.

How does finding an MRCA for middle eastern populations prove that the Bible is right? Please explain.

I know isn't that strange that people actually believe that the Jewish people are not real and do not exist. Why would anyone want proof that the people in the Bible and the middle east are real people?

I also know that MRCA's are not indicative of a single founder of a population.

Like I said we only need 144,000 pure virgins. 12,000 from each tribe. The point is that science does not in any way falsify the Bible. Most everyone concedes that point. Some people need that proven to them.

 

[Loudmouth]

In the beginning.

That doesn't even come close to answering my question.

I know isn't that strange that people actually believe that the Jewish people are not real and do not exist. Why would anyone want proof that the people in the Bible and the middle east are real people?

You are not listening to me, John. I fully accept the claim that the Jewish people are a population that has experienced inbreeding in the past so that it produced MRCA's. What the science does not show is that these MRCA's were the only two people in existence, and were the sole ancestors of the entire population.

The point is that science does not in any way falsify the Bible.

The point is that the Bible is unfalsifiable. It doesn't matter what the evidence is, you will claim that it supports the Bible.

 

[Jazer]

Everyone in the field of genetics agrees that MRCA's are not produced by a single founder of a population.

What does this have to do with anything? Can you falsify the Bible or not? I already said that Isreal does not require a DNA test for citizenship. You have people that are adopted, you have women having babies from affairs. Not all Hebrews are going to be descended from Eve in the Bible. What you have to prove is that Eve in the Bible was not a real person. I do not think you can do that. Science if anything tends to verify that she was a real person. At least that is what all the evidence points to. If your willing to accept Theistic Evolution to some degree. If you want to be a pure YEC then Science does seem to contradict that. But for TE, GAP and OEC there does not seem to be any contradiction with Science.

The point is that the Bible is unfalsifiable.

Of course you can not falsify the Bible. Because the Bible is true. Yet people falsify science all the time. The theory of gravity has been falsified. The geocentric theory has been falsified. The use of mercury as medicine has been falsified. The practice of bleeding people has been falsified. But the Bible has not and never well be falsified. The Bible is inspired by God. If the Bible was the work of man then you would be able to falsify the Bible. You can not falsify the Bible so that shows the Bible was inspired by God. So you are right, that is exactly what the point is.

 

[Jazer]

What the science does not show is that these MRCA's were the only two people in existence, and were the sole ancestors of the entire population.

I never said they were. In fact I said just the opposite. It turns out that Eve in the Bible was one of maybe 28 "MRCA's". She was also the most recent. The real kicker is that this group of people were the beginning of farming and herding animals. We read a lot about both in the Bible. Everything science comes up with confirms that the Bible is true.

 

[Aeneas]

This is post #17 and nobody has gotten around to posting the study that started this whole thread off as of yet. Really?

 

[Loudmouth]

I never said they were. In fact I said just the opposite. It turns out that Eve in the Bible was one of maybe 28 "MRCA's". She was also the most recent.

Along with those 28 MRCA's, there are also tens of thousands of women who lived along side these Eves that contributed DNA to modern populations. These are the ancestors that people do not have in common through direct matrilineal or patrilineal trees. Do you agree with this as well? Do you agree that each of these Eves were just one of thousands of women in her generation, most of whom had children?

The real kicker is that this group of people were the beginning of farming and herding animals. We read a lot about both in the Bible. Everything science comes up with confirms that the Bible is true.

So the Bible says that Eve was one of thousands of women in the Middle East, most of whom were having children who also have descendants alive today within that same population?

 

[Jazer]

This is post #17 and nobody has gotten around to posting the study that started this whole thread off as of yet. Really?

Yes, I noticed that. I guess no one here is interested in a discussion on the topic of population genetics. I think it is interesting. Also it is a great topic for Evolution. Not that many animals have genealogies like people do. I know a girl from China who said she is descended from BOTH Genghis Khan and the Emperor from the Eternal City in Beijing. Because they keep records of things like that. Now we know we can look at her DNA to confirm what she is saying is true. With animals they do not always keep the pedigree. Maybe a few generations for dogs or horses. Perhaps they can figure it out to some degree for hamsters in the lab. But nothing going back 6,000 years like we find in our Bible.

 

[Jazer]

So the Bible says that Eve was one of thousands of women in the Middle East, most of whom were having children who also have descendants alive today within that same population?

Ok, what evidence do you have that there were thousands of people alive 6,000 years ago?