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How many days did creation take?

DamianWarS

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It's an expansion on the original theme, not a retelling of it and it's obviously an expansion of the account of the creation of man. It's not a retelling, that's absurd, it's a continuation of the historical record confirmed in the New Testament witness.

I've let this forum go on a little i'm afraid so sorry about the delay in the reply. Within Genesis there appears to be two creation stories. The first is detailed largely in chapter 1 and the second in chapter 2. Neither one should be regarded as a "retelling" of the other but both inherently are about the creation account and its details they just have different focuses.

Genesis 1:1–2:3 is the first creation account and it clearly stands on its own because of the style of writing as Hebrew poetry. The most common form of Hebrew poetry is when the writer says one thing in two different way called parallelism. We see this all over the first creation story.

Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." is a sort of a thesis statement that wraps up all of creation in one line. Genesis 1:1 is not the creation in the first day it is the sum of all days of creation.

In Hebrew the word for create is also better translated with the concept of "fattening up". Consider 1 Samuel 2:29 which says "Why do you honor your sons more than me by fattening yourselves on the choice parts of every offering made by my people Israel?" the word "fattening" is the same Hebrew word in Genesis 1:1 translated as create. This verse is not showing the creation of the heaven and earth, but rather the fattening or filling up of it.

This immediately assumes something existed before Genesis 1:1 and God simply filled it up and gave it nourishment and life. As an abstract western culture we demand this question to be answered but to the concrete Hebrew mind of whom this was written for these question were not so important and saying that God nourished the heavens and the earth made sense as it was a very concrete minded thing to do as opposed to creating something from nothing which is extremely abstract easy for the greek/roman (and american) minds but difficult for the ancient Hebrew mind to grasp.

This isn't to say that God didn't created the void heavens and earth that he fattened up it simply is how creation is reveled in the poetry of Genesis 1 and we see that poetry more apparent in Hebrew parallelism in verse 2. In verse 2 it is retelling verse 1 in a different way. Don't be led astray by the word "and" as in Hebrew poetry this is standard to combine two statements as talking about the same subject. We see in verse 1 that God "filled up" the heavens and the earth and in verse two it explains that the earth was formless and void (un-fattened, un-shaped, un-filled) and then a wind of God moves over the surface, filling up, shapping, fattening and give it nourishment to allow creation. We know this because we see the direct result of this action in verse 3 which is the first display of creation.

The creation continues in verse 3-5 where God "separates the lightness from the darkness" then it goes on saying this is day one it however does not say it is the "first" day. In the days that follow each closes saying the "second" day or the "third", "forth" and so on days. However in day one the word used is not the word for "first" it is the word for "one". Other uses of this word show a strong sense of unity in its use for example 1:9 "...be gathered into one place..." 2:24 "...and they shall become one flesh..." 11:6 "...behold, they are one people..." This day one can be even seen as a type of parallelism itself with all of creation in one event.

In day 1 God separates the lightness and the darkness, day 2 God separates the waters and in day 3 God separates the land from the waters. Now compare that with the days 4-6. On Day 4 God fills the heavens with celestial objects for both the light and the darkness, on day 5 he fills the waters and the sky with creatures and in day 6 he fills the land with animals. Notices how verse 1 and 2 are talking about how God gives nourishment to the formless voids filling them up and then in day 1,2 and 3 he begins to "separate" them and on day 4,5, and 6 he fills these separations with life; these are parallelisms. Also this isn't forgetting about the strong contrasts presented as well such as heavens/earth, light/dark, water/sky, land/plants. These are very clear and strong parallelisms very evident in Hebrew poetry

We modern western thinkers are very linear in thinking. If we would describe an event we would say each event in chronological order. We love to think this way and this is how our mind operates. So naturally when we read Genesis 1 we see an order of chronological events in day 1, day 2, day 3 and so on. However to the ancient Hebrew mind chronological order in this sort of step logic fashion was not important but instead the whole event in one lump grouping together similar ideas in one block statement. This is the creation story in Genesis 1.

In light of how Genesis 1 is written and presented it stands as its own account. When Genesis 2:4 starts it is disconnected with Genesis 1 in terms of its style and flow from one to the other. The creation story in Genesis 2 has different focuses but it is clear it is different and separate from Genesis 1. First the pointed out style of writing as Genesis 2 does not take on the same poetry style of writing.

The clear differences in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, if they are talking about the exact same event or even if it is only talking about day 6, have some inconsistencies. For starters it appears there is no vegetation on the earth before man was created. When man is created God then plants vegetation. Perhaps this is only talking about the Garden of Eden in terms of what God is planting. It however clearly states in verse 5 "no shrub of the field was yet in the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprouted" and although the Garden is the only vegetation mention being planted it is the first and only mentioned vegetation being planted. I don't know what else God planted as the text does not revel this, however in comparison to Genesis 1 this was done on day 3 before man was created.

As the text goes on we see Man is created, the garden is planted and then animals are created saying "Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky" in direct reason for the previous mentioned "It is not good for the man to be alone..." Now in Genesis 1 birds are created on day 5 and land animals are created on day 6 but in Genesis 2 they all created after man was created. In Genesis 1 man and woman are the last things created and Genesis 2 man is created before all the animals and woman is created after all the animals.

There are too many questions that come up if you assume Genesis two is only talking about day 6. It just does not make sense in the order and reasoning behind the events compared with Genesis 1. These 2 passages should not be regarded as just a continuation of the other but instead Genesis 1 is an isolated poetry of creation and Genesis 2 is a more formal account of creation of man with glossed over or left out details of elements simply because its focus is on the creation of man not the other things. It light of this to strictly take each day of creation in Genesis 1 as a literal event and days seem inconsistent to how the story is presented. Genesis 1 is poetry where the style of the poetry shapes the information.
 
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ptomwebster

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Prog and jinxy,

You both seem unaware of the First Heaven and earth age. We are now coming to the end of the Second Heaven and earth age, and will soon start the Third Heaven and earth age. But you are not alone. Someday you will understand.
 
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Metal Minister

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ptomwebster said:
Prog and jinxy,

You both seem unaware of the First Heaven and earth age. We are now coming to the end of the Second Heaven and earth age, and will soon start the Third Heaven and earth age. But you are not alone. Someday you will understand.

This is intriguing. Do you also believe in Lilith as Adam's first wife?

May God Richly Bless You! MM
 
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mark kennedy

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Glad we agree so far. Perhaps you should have read further down my post to see if I addressed what the parable means, or at least gone back and edited out your impatient remark after you saw that I answered you.

Your still trying to equivocate and historical narrative with a parable without a comprehensive criteria as a standard. It's a hopelessly flawed argument but let's see what you have here. I wouldn't mind so much if it were not so constant and obviously flawed.

Yes that is in there too. I said there was more to the parable than my short overview. But since we can agree on what the meaning of the parable is, perhaps you can show how this depends on the story of the tenants actually happening and what part of the meaning is lost of Jesus made the story up to teach that message?

He had no real reason to make it up and the question is speculative anyway.


Clearly as I have seen again and again with creationists you don't understand parables and metaphors as you illustrate here with your examples. You confuse a parable being literal with the figurative meaning of the parable being true.

I understand them fine, I simply don't endorse your insistence that Adam was a figure of speech or that Genesis is somehow a parable. I don't because the position is indefensible. You guys like to do this with evolution, if we don't accept the universal common ancestor model then we must not understand evolution. The truth is I understand what you are saying, I just don't agree with it.

Not sure what you are trying to say about Sinai, but we see a metaphoric description of the cross in the last supper: "this is my body, which is broken for you". You don't believe the loaf of bread was Jesus actual body. Jesus was holding the loaf of bread in his hands when he broke it. It wasn't literal it was a metaphor, but the metaphor spoke of a real event that happened the very next day when Christ's body really was broken for us.

No, Jesus did not think himself a loaf of bread. There was no hidden meaning in the question, what they remember on Passover is the Exodus, the historical event not the book by the same name.

The metaphor wasn't literal, the bread was still a loaf of bread, it is the meaning that was real. It is the same with the parable of the Good Shepherd. Jesus didn't work minding sheep, he was a carpenter. He didn't die defending his sheep he died for us. The story isn't real it was made up, It is the meaning that is real. Jesus died on the cross to save us.

Jesus being the Good Shepherd is not a parable, it's figurative language but it's obviously not a literal description of an actual Shepherd. Equivocating that with the Genesis account of creation or the New Testament witness regarding Adam is a profoundly flawed argument. One that you make with reckless abandon and while I do not begrudge you right to make arguments as you see fit I know better.

And as long as you keep mixing these ideas up you will remain a creationist confused about how God uses metaphors and parables.

I'm not confused, there or rules of interpretation for discerning metaphors and figurative language. That is an important skill system you should learn something about while trying to confuse parables and historical narratives.

Like you I don't agree with everything Augustine said, but you asked about metaphorical interpretations of Genesis 1 in the early church and Augustine shows there were church fathers who interpreted it that way. If you want to start a discussion of Augustine and Adam feel free to start another thread.

It's coming don't worry.

Instead of replying with sarcasm, why not admit your smear about the incarnation being a metaphor was wrong?

It's not a smear, it's a question I would have happily replied to with great zeal and strong conviction. The incarnation is sandwiched in between two confession of creation in the opening lines of the Nicene Creed because they are foundational doctrines inextricably linked.

Like I said, I addressed it further down, in the very next paragraph in fact. Lets see if you actually addressed my point.

You talk a lot about what we talk about but rarely say anything that can be mistaken for a confession of faith. It seems like such a small thing to ask when it is, by all accounts, essential Christian theism.

You are mixing up parables and what parables mean again Mark.

Nonsense.

They are talking about the creation, God creating heaven and earth, and all things visible and invisible. They are not talking about the description of the creation in Genesis (and Colossians), they are talking about the actual creation. They do not say the Genesis creation account is literal, that is not part of the creed, it is the actually creation that is part of the creed. They are talking about the creation that Genesis and Colossians describe however the texts describe it, literally or figuratively.

So God can create the heavens and the earth figuratively, ok that makes perfect sense. Surely that was what the Nicene Creed authors had in mind when the said God created the heavens and the earth. Sure wish they had injected a 'like' or 'as' so we had a clue what literal truth the figurative language indicated. Or maybe, just maybe, they thought God literally created the heavens and the earth and this doctrinal belief statement was both foundational and essential Christian theism, not figuratively, but literally.

Ok, here we go...

I know you think I am pedantic, but when you make wild accusations like this, don't you know I am going to go through our posts and show how ridiculous these claim are?
Assyrian to mark 8th July 2012 in Why I rejected theistic evolution
http://www.christianforums.com/t7670434-16/#post60925862
Where am I "ridiculing essential doctrine and one of the clearest expressions of the Gospel in the book of Hebrews"? I see the same expression of the gospel in Hebrews you do. Heb 4:10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. The only difference is I recognise that the writer is interpreting God's seventh day rest as the rest we are called to enter, a picture of the gospel. Your problem is you so despise metaphor and allegory that that when an allegorical interpretation is pointed out to you in the bible you accuse me of mockery.​


The literal seventh day rest is a comparison of hearing the voice of the Spirit and believing the Gospel. The key expression here, 'Today, if you hear my voice'. You have to take it in context and you seem oblivious to the fact I was simply sharing the Gospel with you. This verse happens to be one of my favorite in the New Testament, it sums up what has come to be the simplest expression of the gospel in Scripture. You hear the Gospel, believe the Gospel, you receive the Holy Spirit of promise. Once you see this the first time you will find that it transcends Scripture.

You turned it into a contest, I have never accepted this practice as substantive or edifying nor is it intended to be. Theistic evolutionists attack Creationists for what they believe and yet are very ambiguous about what they themselves believe. There was no such ambiguity in the New Testament witness regarding creation.

Assyrian to Mark 21st May 2012 Evidence for Miracles?
http://www.christianforums.com/t7649688-6/#post60561684
____ Mark:
The incarnation and the Creation come before even the cross and the resurrection, why do you think that is?
Assyrian:
Because Jesus had to be human before he could die and he had to share our humanity before he could die and rise again for us.

In virtually every modern apologetics work I have read the deity of Christ is emphasized early and often. It is essential Christian theism. A simple confession of a foundational tenant of the Christian faith is all that was called for and certainly doesn't require a lengthy response. You either believe it or you don't.

Assyrian to Mark 9th May 2011 Genesis, Adam and What the Scriptures Teach
http://www.christianforums.com/t7524679-13/#post57434262
You don't think John the baptist was referring to the passover lamb, or at very least the temple sacrifices when he called Jesus the lamb of God? You don't think John meant that Jesus was the fulfillment and true meaning of these OT sacrifices? It may be a title, you have still to show it isn't typological and it isn't a metaphor.

Typology is generally two literal things like Timothy being an example for others to follow or Jesus being the lamb that was slain. Both Timothy and Jesus are literal people even in though a figure is used when describing Jesus as the Lamb, that takes away the sin of the world. This is also used in the Revelation and I'm well acquainted with the literary feature as any student of the Scriptures would be. Who doesn't know these things?

Assyrian to Mark 7th May 2011 Genesis, Adam and What the Scriptures Teach
http://www.christianforums.com/t7524679-12/#post57420739
These typological interpretations in the NT take things from the OT and use them figuratively, as metaphorical pictures of Christ and the New Covenant. The Passover lamb and the temple sacrifices are figurative pictures of Christ and the cross. They are not literal, they cannot be literal because Jesus wasn't a sheep.

Never said he was a literal sheep, but he was a literal man just as Adam was the name of an actual person and you know this. It's called equivocation and repeating the same flawed argument doesn't make it any more substantive.

Assyrian to Mark 2nd May 2011 Genesis, Adam and What the Scriptures Teach
http://www.christianforums.com/t7524679-11/#post57380200
The deity of Jesus Christ, that he died on the cross and rose again for our sins. The inspiration of scripture. That everything that exists was created by God through Christ. It is a long list. I want to search out the scriptures and try to understand what the really say, what the writers were talking about and what God was and is speaking through them.

Sure wish you not only said that more often, but could convince me that is your true intention. I know what the authors were teaching about Jesus being the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world and Adam bring sin and death. I know because there are rules of interpretation that you are either unaware of or you simply ignore them.

Assyrian to Mark 27th February 2007 in "the proevolution crowd isn't terribly concerned about the Bible."
http://www.christianforums.com/t4870038-4/#post32248009
Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God, died for our sins on Calvary and rose from the dead by the power of for God. Through his resurrection Christ is proclaimed Lord of all, and are commanded to repent and believe in his name. Those who do are cleansed of their sins and raised to new life in Christ.
So no actual evidence from scripture other than your assumption the description of Adam being made from dust is literal and that the NT interprets it the way you do?

So the witness of Genesis and the New Testament confirmation of the creation of Adam is no longer proof huh? Dude, seriously, don't you get dizzy talking in circles around the obvious?


So just your assertion it is literal then. But since you clearly don't even understand metaphors and parables that God loves to speak to us with, since you do not recognise when NT writer are interpreting an OT passage figuratively, your claim a passage cannot be figurative does not hold much water.

I understand perfectly fine as I know you understand the Genesis is an historical narrative and no where in Scripture is the creation presented as a parable. The whole premise is hopelessly absurd but you just keep repeating it, as if you were making a point.

I have already explain the structure of the Nicene Creed, why are you asking this again when you didn't address my answer?

You talked a lot about what you talked about without saying very much. You keep claiming that I don't understand parables because I don't accept that Adam is a parable and you begged the question of proof of this absurd indictment on your hands and knees. There are only two arguments in all this word salad, the creation account is a parable which is absurd and I don't understand what a parable is which is simply not the case.

There is the argument, not that it lacks any real merit, that I don't understand parables and metaphors in the Bible which is a common evolutionist fallacy. Invariably the ad hominem fallacy is the main stay of theistic evolutionist arguments, at least on these boards.

You really need some new material.

Have a nice day :)
Mark

They are talking about the creation. The creation is historical whether the creation accounts are figurative of literal historical descriptions of it. You really need to learn to understand metaphors and parables.[/QUOTE]
 
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Keachian

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It's not a smear, it's a question I would have happily replied to with great zeal and strong conviction. The incarnation is sandwiched in between two confession of creation in the opening lines of the Nicene Creed because they are foundational doctrines inextricably linked.

Stop linking the description of the person of Christ with his incarnation the two are different especially when you are equivocating that the incarnation lies between the two statements of God creating the world.

The bits in bold are about the creation of the world, the bit in between talks about the relationship between the Father and the Son, which is completely understandable as this is what the Creed is set out to do, after the second declaration that God created all things comes the incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection and his return

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.
In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Yes the doctrine of God being creator of all things is important, however this has never and will never devolve down to only being YEC
 
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BobRyan

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Since there does appear to be overlap then perhaps these are not literal days or even literal periods being described

It is not overlap - rather it is is chiasim. Furthermore it is obviously literal as each one has "an evening and a morning" - and is chiseled into legal code in the form "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. SIX days you shall labor... for in SIX Days the Lord made the heavens and the earth the seas and all that is in them and rested the seventh day therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy" Ex 20:8-11.

The creation of all life on earth, the sun and the moon and the formatting of this planet to support life - was all done in a literal six day week - followed by a literal day of rest - which God then commanded His people to follow in terms of work and then His holy day of rest and worship.

Any other insert into the text - is nothing more than eisegeting into it what this or that one might imagine - but is not letting the text speak for itself.

Moses is writing in Genesis 1:2-2:3 and Moses is writing in Exodus 20. The same author, the same subject, the same timeline. Pretty hard to ignore.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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I am merely pointing out that there appears to be two creation accounts in genesis .

Genesis 2 expands on details for Genesis 1 - it assumes that the reader has the chronological time-boxed sequence of chapter 1 - in which to fit the non-time-boxed details of Genesis 2.

And as it turns out - that is pretty easy for the reader to do.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Keachian

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Genesis 2 expands on details for Genesis 1 - it assumes that the reader has the chronological time-boxed sequence of chapter 1 - in which to fit the non-time-boxed details of Genesis 2.

Well no it doesn't, in fact the use of the {P} parashah mark at the end of verse 3 says quite distinctively that Gen 2:4ff is a new idea, new story. The repeated refrains in 1:2-2:3, the use of bara only at specific points in the narrative (God bara to start does things for three days, bara again does things for another three days) the structure of creating spaces (days 1-3) and then filling them (days 4-6) and then taking up control of his creation (day 7) speaks volumes towards it being an exalted prose description of God setting up his temple so that man may co-run it with him.

And as it turns out - that is pretty easy for the reader to do.

Yes it is very easy for people to read things into the text.
 
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BobRyan

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Well no it doesn't, in fact the use of the {P} parashah mark at the end of verse 3 says quite distinctively that Gen 2:4ff is a new idea, new story.
j

Well no it doesn't - we do not have the autograph and to eisegete into the text a dogma about "two contradictory stories" is not at all required by the document itself - which leaves us with the point that Moses' readers were as well capable of seeing a time-boxed timeline in Gen 1:2-2:3 compared to the added details that have to be fit into that same timeline -- as the reader can easily do today.

This means that all the examples given throughout scripture using that same "repeat, expand and enlarge the detail" model - are simply using the same style.

pretty hard to ignore.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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mark kennedy

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I've let this forum go on a little i'm afraid so sorry about the delay in the reply. Within Genesis there appears to be two creation stories. The first is detailed largely in chapter 1 and the second in chapter 2. Neither one should be regarded as a "retelling" of the other but both inherently are about the creation account and its details they just have different focuses.

Genesis 1:1–2:3 is the first creation account and it clearly stands on its own because of the style of writing as Hebrew poetry. The most common form of Hebrew poetry is when the writer says one thing in two different way called parallelism. We see this all over the first creation story.

Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." is a sort of a thesis statement that wraps up all of creation in one line. Genesis 1:1 is not the creation in the first day it is the sum of all days of creation.

Genesis has a focus lens, it goes from the entire creation, then the six days of creation and then focuses on the sixth day, specifically Adam and Eve. That's about as complicated as the exposition gets.

In Hebrew the word for create is also better translated with the concept of "fattening up". Consider 1 Samuel 2:29 which says "Why do you honor your sons more than me by fattening yourselves on the choice parts of every offering made by my people Israel?" the word "fattening" is the same Hebrew word in Genesis 1:1 translated as create. This verse is not showing the creation of the heaven and earth, but rather the fattening or filling up of it.

I'm familiar with the Hebrew word for create here and you seem to be referring to the Hiphil form of bara.

Strong's H1254 - bara' בָּרָא - (Literally, 'form by cutting')

1) to create, shape, form
a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1) of heaven and earth
2) of individual man
3) of new conditions and circumstances
4) of transformations​
b) (Niphal) to be created
1) of heaven and earth
2) of birth
3) of something new
4) of miracles​
c) (Piel)
1) to cut down
2) to cut out​
2) to be fat
a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

(KJV) Translation Count — Total: 54
AV — create 42, creator 3, choose 2, make 2, cut down 2, dispatch 1, done 1, make fat 1


This immediately assumes something existed before Genesis 1:1 and God simply filled it up and gave it nourishment and life. As an abstract western culture we demand this question to be answered but to the concrete Hebrew mind of whom this was written for these question were not so important and saying that God nourished the heavens and the earth made sense as it was a very concrete minded thing to do as opposed to creating something from nothing which is extremely abstract easy for the greek/roman (and american) minds but difficult for the ancient Hebrew mind to grasp.

In the vernacular of the pagan cultures the elementals proceed the gods. The Hebrew account of creation has God, Elohim, creating the elements from nature, 'apart from Him there was nothing made that was made'. This is in counter-distinction to every culture recalling the original creation including Darwinians who attribute to elementals what is rightfully attributed to God.

This isn't to say that God didn't created the void heavens and earth that he fattened up it simply is how creation is reveled in the poetry of Genesis 1 and we see that poetry more apparent in Hebrew parallelism in verse 2. In verse 2 it is retelling verse 1 in a different way. Don't be led astray by the word "and" as in Hebrew poetry this is standard to combine two statements as talking about the same subject. We see in verse 1 that God "filled up" the heavens and the earth and in verse two it explains that the earth was formless and void (un-fattened, un-shaped, un-filled) and then a wind of God moves over the surface, filling up, shapping, fattening and give it nourishment to allow creation. We know this because we see the direct result of this action in verse 3 which is the first display of creation.

You appear to be focused on a rendering of bara that is translated fattening only once. The exposition is fine, obviously you have given this considerable thought but I think you might want to take a closer look at the word used for creation in the Genesis account.

The creation continues in verse 3-5 where God "separates the lightness from the darkness" then it goes on saying this is day one it however does not say it is the "first" day. In the days that follow each closes saying the "second" day or the "third", "forth" and so on days. However in day one the word used is not the word for "first" it is the word for "one". Other uses of this word show a strong sense of unity in its use for example 1:9 "...be gathered into one place..." 2:24 "...and they shall become one flesh..." 11:6 "...behold, they are one people..." This day one can be even seen as a type of parallelism itself with all of creation in one event.

An interesting thought...

In day 1 God separates the lightness and the darkness, day 2 God separates the waters and in day 3 God separates the land from the waters. Now compare that with the days 4-6. On Day 4 God fills the heavens with celestial objects for both the light and the darkness, on day 5 he fills the waters and the sky with creatures and in day 6 he fills the land with animals. Notices how verse 1 and 2 are talking about how God gives nourishment to the formless voids filling them up and then in day 1,2 and 3 he begins to "separate" them and on day 4,5, and 6 he fills these separations with life; these are parallelisms. Also this isn't forgetting about the strong contrasts presented as well such as heavens/earth, light/dark, water/sky, land/plants. These are very clear and strong parallelisms very evident in Hebrew poetry

The most common analogy for this is that in the first three days God is preparing the vessels for life, then in the next three days is filling the vessels with living creatures. Still, you have pretty good exposition going on there, let's see where you go with it.

We modern western thinkers are very linear in thinking. If we would describe an event we would say each event in chronological order. We love to think this way and this is how our mind operates. So naturally when we read Genesis 1 we see an order of chronological events in day 1, day 2, day 3 and so on. However to the ancient Hebrew mind chronological order in this sort of step logic fashion was not important but instead the whole event in one lump grouping together similar ideas in one block statement. This is the creation story in Genesis 1.

Clearly the Genesis account has a linear chronological order indicated by the use of ordinals (an ordered numbering 1,2,3...). What is in light here is just what the English translations are telling us, six days of creation.

In light of how Genesis 1 is written and presented it stands as its own account. When Genesis 2:4 starts it is disconnected with Genesis 1 in terms of its style and flow from one to the other. The creation story in Genesis 2 has different focuses but it is clear it is different and separate from Genesis 1. First the pointed out style of writing as Genesis 2 does not take on the same poetry style of writing.

The Genesis narratives are not poetry exactly, it's is prose which is distinctively different from poetic expressions in the Hebrew writings. The literary style of Genesis 2 is identical to Genesis 1 and there is no logical disconnect between the two accounts. They differ only in their focus. you seem to be drifting into a modernist frame of reference.

The clear differences in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, if they are talking about the exact same event or even if it is only talking about day 6, have some inconsistencies. For starters it appears there is no vegetation on the earth before man was created. When man is created God then plants vegetation. Perhaps this is only talking about the Garden of Eden in terms of what God is planting. It however clearly states in verse 5 "no shrub of the field was yet in the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprouted" and although the Garden is the only vegetation mention being planted it is the first and only mentioned vegetation being planted. I don't know what else God planted as the text does not revel this, however in comparison to Genesis 1 this was done on day 3 before man was created.

There were trees, grass and other wild vegetation created on the third day. On the sixth day God planted a Garden with cultivated plants that were planted but not fully watered since Man had not been created yet. This requires a little more work to determine how the focus has changed but there are resources available to any student of Scripture who is interested in exploring the meaning in more depth.

As the text goes on we see Man is created, the garden is planted and then animals are created saying "Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky" in direct reason for the previous mentioned "It is not good for the man to be alone..." Now in Genesis 1 birds are created on day 5 and land animals are created on day 6 but in Genesis 2 they all created after man was created. In Genesis 1 man and woman are the last things created and Genesis 2 man is created before all the animals and woman is created after all the animals.

You'll never get that meaning from a sound exegesis of the language being used. This is a continued 'history of the heavens and the earth when they were created' (Gen 2:4). This is nothing more then an expansion of the Genesis 1 account just as Genesis 1:1 is expanded in the history of the Genesis creation of life in six days. Genesis 2 further expands this theme by including details of the creation week specifically focused on the creation of Adam and the Garden of Eden. No special skills are required to understand the flow of this historical narrative and you are loosely interpreting the text based on redactory criticisms that have been refuted many times and in sufficient ways to dismiss it as secular skepticism with no merit as an exegetical treatment of the original.

There are too many questions that come up if you assume Genesis two is only talking about day 6.

Stop right there, no there are not. I had a feeling you were going to do this and your exposition is flawed at various levels. These questions are based on an obscure rendering of the Hebrew text that is unwarranted and unsound. Your conclusion is inconsistent with the text, it's as simple as that.

It just does not make sense in the order and reasoning behind the events compared with Genesis 1. These 2 passages should not be regarded as just a continuation of the other but instead Genesis 1 is an isolated poetry of creation and Genesis 2 is a more formal account of creation of man with glossed over or left out details of elements simply because its focus is on the creation of man not the other things. It light of this to strictly take each day of creation in Genesis 1 as a literal event and days seem inconsistent to how the story is presented. Genesis 1 is poetry where the style of the poetry shapes the information.

Your exposition is flawed and your conclusions are based on those fallacious renderings. What you are doing is rehashing the skepticism of modernist academics who conflate and obscure the clear meaning of the text so it's no wonder you are confused.

It makes perfect since that Genesis 2 is an expansion of Genesis 1 account of creation, just as creation week in six days is a natural expansion on Genesis 1:1.

Your going to have to go back and take a better look at what the text is actually saying instead of importing meanings never intended by the original. In short, you have obscured the text and that has distorted the clear meaning of the passage. Why don't you let the narrative focus your attention instead of importing meaning that is alien to the literary style?

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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Harry3142

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DamianWars-

In order to comprehend what Moses' purpose was when he wrote the creation stories of Genesis (Genesis 1:1-2:3 and Genesis 2:4-25), we need to place them beside the creation epic that his people were already familiar with, namely, this one:

www.theologywebsite.com/etext/egypt/creation.shtml

It predated the stories in Genesis by centuries, and also used the days of the week as its timeline. But instead of concentrating on the creation of objects and animals, it concentrated on gods and goddesses creating other gods and goddesses. And each of these gods and goddesses (there were over 40 of them in Egypt's pantheon) could be sculpted in stone or painted on a wall. IOW, they all had physical features which the animals, celestial objects, and even the parts of this planet itself represented.

Moses took what they were familiar with, namely, the use of days as the timeline for creation, and methodically stripped every celestial object, animal, and the planet itself of their divine attributes in Genesis 1:1-2:3. By the time he was through the sun, moon, and stars were merely objects in the sky which gave light to the people, rather than their being gods and goddesses; the animals that the people saw around them were merely other species of animals, with no divine attributes attached to them; and the planet itself merely consisted of a surface that was either land or water, an atmosphere, and an area that existed above that atmosphere. There was only one deity, and that Person was seperate from all that he had created.

And just as the first was a demythologization of the egyptian creation epic, the second story (Genesis 2:4-25) was a rebuttal of that same epic. In the egyptian creation epic mankind had been created along with all the other animals on the last day of creation, and then 'dumped' on this planet. The second story of Genesis told of man's being created in a truly unique manner, and so to be seen as seperate from all other species of animals. He had been given the capacity to converse with God directly. He had been given authority over the other species of animals, symbolized by his naming those other species. He had been given a special place where he could live comfortably (The Garden of Eden). And even his helpmate had been created in a unique manner.

He had also been given the capacity to disobey God's commands if he chose to do so. He could desire to know the diffference between good and evil, and act on that desire. He could reject the innocence which he shared with the other species of animals. This quirk in his nature made man truly unique.
 
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BobRyan

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No Bible writer claims that "Moses got his information from pagan mythology" as I am sure we all agree.

Peter makes it clear that no writing of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation but rather "holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from GOD" 2Pet 1:20-21.

That is very different from the "borrowed from pagan myths" origin idea of modern human secularism.

Since there does appear to be overlap then perhaps these are not literal days or even literal periods being described

It is not overlap - rather it is is chiasim. Furthermore it is obviously literal as each one has "an evening and a morning" - and is chiseled into legal code in the form "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. SIX days you shall labor... for in SIX Days the Lord made the heavens and the earth the seas and all that is in them and rested the seventh day therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy" Ex 20:8-11.

The creation of all life on earth, the sun and the moon and the formatting of this planet to support life - was all done in a literal six day week - followed by a literal day of rest - which God then commanded His people to follow in terms of work and then His holy day of rest and worship.

Any other insert into the text - is nothing more than eisegeting into it what this or that one might imagine - but is not letting the text speak for itself.

Moses is writing in Genesis 1:2-2:3 and Moses is writing in Exodus 20. The same author, the same subject, the same timeline. Pretty hard to ignore.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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DamianWarS

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No Bible writer claims that "Moses got his information from pagan mythology" as I am sure we all agree.

Peter makes it clear that no writing of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation but rather "holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from GOD" 2Pet 1:20-21.

That is very different from the "borrowed from pagan myths" origin idea of modern human secularism.

It is not overlap - rather it is is chiasim. Furthermore it is obviously literal as each one has "an evening and a morning" - and is chiseled into legal code in the form "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. SIX days you shall labor... for in SIX Days the Lord made the heavens and the earth the seas and all that is in them and rested the seventh day therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy" Ex 20:8-11.

The creation of all life on earth, the sun and the moon and the formatting of this planet to support life - was all done in a literal six day week - followed by a literal day of rest - which God then commanded His people to follow in terms of work and then His holy day of rest and worship.

Any other insert into the text - is nothing more than eisegeting into it what this or that one might imagine - but is not letting the text speak for itself.

Moses is writing in Genesis 1:2-2:3 and Moses is writing in Exodus 20. The same author, the same subject, the same timeline. Pretty hard to ignore.

in Christ,

Bob

the creation story can be viewed as a demythologization of other creation myths accounts most notably the Egyptian since it obviously had a large influenced on the Israelites at that time. No one is saying it is inspired by myth nor invented by man but divinely inspired with part focus to remove the myth from the accounts and point to God as the only source of creation. If you look at what the Israelites were coming from it is quite reasonable to assume that they were influenced by Egyptian culture.

The Egyptians were an advanced civilization and no doubt their creation ideas were far more articulated than that of the Israelites who at that time only would have only been able to rely on stories passed down from dead generations. Culture is something that is easily influenced and washed out by a more dominate or advanced culture especially if one culture is new. Perhaps the Isrealites were able to preserve a remnant of truth in these accounts but if they were influenced by the Egyptians for over 400 years as the bible revels than inevitably these accounts were corrupted by outside sources.

The Isrealites did not have the luxury to consult a written down text to confirm their accounts and could only rely on what they were taught as a child as their strongest source. The biblical history of the Israelites does not give them a good track record of being incorruptible by surrounding cultures and I don't see why we should view this period of time as their strongest when everything else would suggest it would be their weakest. We are talking about a people group who were worshiping a golden calf as the 10 commandments were being craved into stone. Moses needed to show them a divinely reveled creation account to put to rest all the inconsistencies and confusions they had just as he needed to show them the law to put to rest all the immoral behavior that seemed so common place.

None of this demands that the creation account needs to be a literal 7 days. If the creation account is viewed liken to poetry or story than elements in it referring to evening or morning can very easily be metaphorical rather than literal. In fact many areas of the bible uses the exact same metaphors. The Hebrew word for "day" can even be translated as any amount of time and is not exclusively reserved for a 24hr day. Genesis 1 has a chiastic structure of AⁿBⁿ which shifts its focus to phases that complement each other rather than litteral days and can uniquely identify it as poetry. Parallelisms are the most common form of poetry in Hebrew. Genesis 1 perhaps is very different than the Psalms and Proverbs but it very clearly has wide uses of parallelisms and it can very reasonably and consistently be looked at as a poetry. It is a divinely contextualized creation account meant for a people group largely influenced by myth and demanding something similar. It has a two fold focus to demythologize and to point to God as the only source of creation.
 
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miamited

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THANK YOU BOB!!!!! It gets tiring to read how 'christians' seem to think the Scriptures referred to by the Son of the very God are just some book of practices and beliefs of the men who wrote it! Moses spent 40 days in the presence of God which is more than likely where God sat him down and told him, "Write these things down." There is none of the Pentetuech that is the thoughts, ideas or wanderings of the minds of men, but rather they are the words that God, by His Spirit, caused men to write! Similarly with all of what is holy Scripture. This is what Peter taught and it was to answer just such claims as are being made here.

He is telling the reader, "Look, in answer to those who would claim that the Scriptures are just like any other historical account of men and their beliefs about the things of this creation, know this! They are not! They are the very oracles of God. They are the thoughts, ideas and commands of our Creator who is forever praised! Amen!

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted
 
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