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How many creationist here think that atheism and evolution go together?

joshua 1 9

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The same way, a scientific theory, explains the well evidenced facts.

In this thread, there have been claims that; the claims in the bible are fully supported by science. I have yet to see any well evidenced facts, support the major biblical claims.
Because you stumble over the FIRST WORD IN THE BIBLE. The Bible says: "In the Beginning" Was there a beginning or not? Yes or NO? If you say everything has a beginning that proves that the very first word is true. We can then go onto the next word and see if that is true or not. The second word in the Bible is GOD. You call yourself an Atheist. By definition an Atheist is "a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods." So by definition you have already put on your filter and determined that you are unable to believe in God. So you have already decided that your going to reject any and all evidence for theism. At least you have not demonstrated to me that your willing to objectively review the evidence.
 
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bhsmte

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Because you stumble over the FIRST WORD IN THE BIBLE. The Bible says: "In the Beginning" Was there a beginning or not? Yes or NO? If you say everything has a beginning that proves that the very first word is true. We can then go onto the next word and see if that is true or not. The second word in the Bible is GOD. You call yourself an Atheist. By definition an Atheist is "a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods." So by definition you have already put on your filter and determined that you are unable to believe in God. So you have already decided that your going to reject any and all evidence for theism. At least you have not demonstrated to me that your willing to objectively review the evidence.

If that is all you have, keep looking.
 
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In situ

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The same way, a scientific theory, explains the well evidenced facts.

I edited my question after you answered, let me repeate a similar version of it:

How do you prove a truth to be true with evidence?

In this thread, there have been claims that; the claims in the bible are fully supported by science. I have yet to see any well evidenced facts, support the major biblical claims.

Yes, but but you also made the claim you can prove a truth to be true with evidence. How do you do that?
 
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bhsmte

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I edited my question after you answered, let me repeate a similar version of it:

How do you prove a truth to be true with evidence?



Yes, but but you also made the claim you can prove a truth to be true with evidence. How do you do that?

Let's say I am a prosecutor and I am claiming it is true that the defendant committed a murder.

In proving this truth, I present evidence the defendants finger prints are on the murder weapon. I present a registration proving the defendant owned the gun. I present dna evidence, showing the defendant was at the scene of the crime. I present evidence, that the defendant, had a violent argument with the murder victim the day before the murder and established motive for the crime.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Suspecting a false analogy, this is 2016, and not it hasn't. I also suspect you are quoting of out context - even doubt you quoted correctly.
Ok, I will get the quote for you if you explain to my wife why I do not get rid of books after I read them: Francis S. Collins: "The language of life", page 5: "The discoveries of the past decade, little known to most of the public, have completely overturned much of what use to be taught in high school biology." Another book is: "The Half-Life of Facts: Why Everything We Know Has an Expiration Date". "Facts change all the time. Smoking has gone from doctor recommended to deadly. We used to think the Earth was the center of the universe and that the brontosaurus was a real dinosaur. In short, what we know about the world is constantly changing."

Now compare science to the Bible. Science is in a constant state of revision and change, the books are always needing updated. The Bible has remained consistent and unchanged for over 3500 years. The Bible has passed the test of time and continues to remain steadfast and true. Each and every generation for the last 3500 years have proven the Bible to be true and relevant for their generalization.
 
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In situ

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Because you stumble over the FIRST WORD IN THE BIBLE. The Bible says: "In the Beginning" Was there a beginning or not? Yes or NO? If you say everything has a beginning that proves that the very first word is true.

No it does not, but it proves you think truths about the reality can be simplified to a single propositional calculus statement such as "A implies B, A therefore B". This is obviously not the case - reality is much more complicated than this - and that is why your claim does not count as evidence.

We can then go onto the next word and see if that is true or not.

Repeating the same fallacy does not make what you say more true.

At least you have not demonstrated to me that your willing to objectively review the evidence.

I disagree.
 
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Let's say I am a prosecutor and I am claiming it is true that the defendant committed a murder.

In proving this truth, I present evidence the defendants finger prints are on the murder weapon. I present a registration proving the defendant owned the gun. I present dna evidence, showing the defendant was at the scene of the crime. I present evidence, that the defendant, had a violent argument with the murder victim the day before the murder and established motive for the crime.

Okay, let me reformulate myself; why does something that is true need to be proven to be true?
 
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joshua 1 9

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Let's say I am a prosecutor and I am claiming it is true that the defendant committed a murder.

In proving this truth, I present evidence the defendants finger prints are on the murder weapon. I present a registration proving the defendant owned the gun. I present dna evidence, showing the defendant was at the scene of the crime. I present evidence, that the defendant, had a violent argument with the murder victim the day before the murder and established motive for the crime.
Better watch out for Texas because a lot of people are going free there now that they are using DNA to examine the evidence. A women can point her finger at a man and claim: He is the one, yet the DNA evidence shows otherwise.
 
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bhsmte

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Okay, let me reformulate myself; why does something that is true need to be proven to be true?

Because some people, deny what can be shown with evidence to be true, as being true.

Also, some people, will just claim something is true and not provide any evidence to support the same.

When in doubt, look at the evidence to support the truth, or the claim of truth.
 
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bhsmte

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Better watch out for Texas because a lot of people are going free there now that they are using DNA to examine the evidence. A women can point her finger at a man and claim: He is the one, yet the DNA evidence shows otherwise.

Is there something wrong with that?

Should a person be convicted of a crime based on eye witness testimony, when DNA shows, they could not have committed the crime?
 
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Jay Follett

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If you say everything has a beginning that proves that the very first word is true.
Everything has got to start somewhere so did your God have a beginning? yes it did, it started when someone (we don't know who) put pen to whatever they wrote on then and invented the God that was later used by Christians.
 
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joshua 1 9

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No it does not, but it proves you think truths about the reality can be simplified to a single propositional calculus statement such as "A implies B, A therefore B". This is obviously not the case - reality is much more complicated than this - and that is why your claim does not count as evidence.
Quit trying to avoid the question. Was there a beginning or not? Is there truth in the Bible or not? IF there is truth in the Bible then what standard are you going to use to try to determine what is true and what is not true? If you want to use science that is fine, but you are going to limit yourself because Science is limited in what they can do. That is why we have BOTH: religion and science because we need both.

d08aa9755aa59d9e164c30fd797d27bd.jpg
71f088b4ddc018098e66840025ee2de4.jpg
 
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joshua 1 9

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Everything has got to start somewhere so did your God have a beginning?
God was there in the Beginning. He is the beginning and the end. He knows the end from the beginning. Man no matter how big his computer can not control all of the variables. God can using natural laws that are an intricate part of His creation.
 
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bhsmte

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Quit trying to avoid the question. Was there a beginning or not? Is there truth in the Bible or not? IF there is truth in the Bible then what standard are you going to use to try to determine what is true and what is not true? If you want to use science that is fine, but you are going to limit yourself because Science is limited in what they can do. That is why we have BOTH: religion and science because we need both.

d08aa9755aa59d9e164c30fd797d27bd.jpg
71f088b4ddc018098e66840025ee2de4.jpg

How did God begin?
 
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In situ

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Ok, I will get the quote for you if you explain to my wife why I do not get rid of books after I read them: Francis S. Collins: "The language of life", page 5: "The discoveries of the past decade, little known to most of the public, have completely overturned much of what use to be taught in high school biology."

I don't own that book, what year is it printed? And no "most" has not been turned over in high school biology books, pretty much is the same but thing has been added. The statement is an exaggeration to drive home a point - it is not meant to be taken in the way you seams to think it should.

Another book is: "The Half-Life of Facts: Why Everything We Know Has an Expiration Date". "Facts change all the time. Smoking has gone from doctor recommended to deadly. We used to think the Earth was the center of the universe and that the brontosaurus was a real dinosaur. In short, what we know about the world is constantly changing."

If Samule Arbesman really believes facts changes all the time then Saumel Arbesman is wrong. The word "facts" is often used in a very lose way and sometime it refers to things that actually is not facts but strong correlation (such as laws). You ride on a misunderstanding about the meaning of "facts" to prove a point. And sometime that is very subtle. One can say it is a theory that the Earth rotates around the sun or one can say it is fact. The evidence (which in itself can be theories but regarded as fact) supporting the theory that Earth revolves around the sun is so strong we call it a fact - there is no doubt in our mind this is the case. As a fact it can never be wrong. As a theory it can be wrong.

This is the distinction you need to understand when somebody says "facts can change"- what they actually means is that theories can change - facts cannot change because they are (postulated) truths within a certain theory!

Now compare science to the Bible. Science is in a constant state of revision and change, the books are always needing updated. The Bible has remained consistent and unchanged for over 3500 years.


Christ, you really gonna bring up this insanely bad argument why the bible must be true? Are you familiar with the explanation why this argument is wrong? (also note; an argument is not an evidence - an argument is just a collection of words - evidences are observations of reality == facts).

The Earth still rotates around the sun, even though we have replaced Newton with Einstein - the fact remains the same but the explanation of the facts can change. It is important you understand the distinction between a fact and a theory.

Science does not discarding what previously was known but is accumulating and refining its knowledge. The basic for this is Karl Popper falsification requirement. This in contrast to religion which still maintains same old 2-3000 years old myth regardless of weather they been proven wrong or not. In other words, there is no to little development of knowledge in dogmatic religious practice, while science expands its knowledge every day....

That is what Samule Arbesman actually mean when he wrote "what we know about the world is constantly changing".

The Bible has passed the test of time and continues to remain steadfast and true. Each and every generation for the last 3500 years have proven the Bible to be true and relevant for their generalization.

No it hasn't passed "the test" - it has past your "test". It is just ignorant to claim this to be the general case. Secondly to stay the same, no matter what, and assert truth is the very definition of a dogma. The definition of knowledge and truth is not the same.

The only thing I can grant you is that in each generation there been some that found it relevant. But relevance does not prove truthfullness in any way.
 
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JonFromMinnesota

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As the leading expert on DNA: Francis Collins says: Most of what we thought we knew about DNA 10 years ago has been proven to be wrong.

Care to cite this quote in context? I suspect you are doing some dishonest quote mining. I could not find the specific quote, which is why I am asking you to cite your source and use the full context of the quote.

"As someone who's had the privilege of leading the human genome project, I've had the opportunity to study our own DNA instruction book at a level of detail that was never really possible before. It's also now been possible to compare our DNA with that of many other species. The evidence supporting the idea that all living things are descended from a common ancestor is truly overwhelming. I would not necessarily wish that to be so, as a Bible-believing Christian. But it is so. It does not serve faith well to try to deny that."- Francis Collins.
 
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bhsmte

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Care to cite this quote in context? I suspect you are doing some dishonest quote mining. I could not find the specific quote, which is why I am asking you to cite your source and use the full context of the quote.

"As someone who's had the privilege of leading the human genome project, I've had the opportunity to study our own DNA instruction book at a level of detail that was never really possible before. It's also now been possible to compare our DNA with that of many other species. The evidence supporting the idea that all living things are descended from a common ancestor is truly overwhelming. I would not necessarily wish that to be so, as a Bible-believing Christian. But it is so. It does not serve faith well to try to deny that."- Francis Collins.

This quote from Collins, is likely Kryptonite to fundies.
 
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